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PG&E (Northern California) finding: SmartAC program could be mandated?
- Thread starter holeydonut
- Start date
skepticcyclist
Member
But there is not a tamper evident seal on your actual compressor unit where they plug two low voltage AC wires to give it power. I just unplugged one of the wires and it could no longer tell my system to shut down because it was no longer receiving power. It took about 2 years for them to notify me saying something was wrong. They said they would send out a technician. I just plugged the wire back in before they came and switched off the breaker to my AC unit. So the technician just assumed it was a tripped breaker that caused the issue. Because when the breaker is flipped off, the whole system doesn't get power, including this device
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I was wondering if this ends up happening... I feel like tricking thousands of thermostats into thinking thousands of compressors are running is a weird way to solve a grid energy problem.
I find it hard to believe PG&E’s assertion that participants of SmartAC didn’t even know the things were running. To your point, if it’s super hot outside, the AC’s stopping for 30 minutes would be felt pretty quickly indoors when the air being blown around was hot instead of cool.
Also, on top of the creation of an accidental heat exchanger, He’s got older HVAC with PSC motors as well. Which means his air handers expend a lot of energy to blow hot air around.
The Leap Rewards thing made sense because the Thermostat simply wouldn’t operate the cooling system. But these weird SmartAC boxes don’t seem very smart at all.
skepticcyclist
Member
A better system would be to have them shut off the whole system. But they can't do that because some people need to have the fan running for filtration.
What many utility companies have in place of or in addition to this is direct control the thermostat during a flex alert. Here they can actually turn up your thermostat remotely for a certain period of time to reduce the amount of energy being used. I ended up doing this for a couple of years after I got off the other program.
I think an even better system would be to encourage the homeowners who like to run their AC's to install rooftop solar arrays so they could use their own generation to power their own cooling systems on blistering hot days. Unfortunately, as we've seen lately, the groups lobbying to un-wind the NEM rules are the Power Companies.
JJrandorin's post about the "rush hour" program with the smart thermostats was similar to the experience I had trying them in 2019. The house doesn't really get pre-cooled much, and then the house gets super hot while the program is running during the rush hour. It is no good.
Interesting... Sunrun is allowing ESS to support the Grid during peak time
Interesting thing showed up in my inbox. It looks like Sunrun is taking steps to allow PG&E to command my ESS to grid-export at peak time. The incentive to do this is to effectively "load shift" banked off-peak solar production and export it at peak time to generate peak NEM credits. Plus...
teslamotorsclub.com
Yeah, another annoying factor about my location is that I'm near the border between PG&E's zone X and Sacramento's Zone S. By being further inland, PG&E allows Sacramento homes to use more energy without being considered big offender/wasters. Here's an old study/map for the zones and baseline for "normal" single family homes that were serviced with both Electricity and Gas from PG&E. In the Summer, Sacramento homes got over 36% more summertime baseline allocation than my home received due to the boundary/mapping. I'm not sure what the newest baselines look like.
But, PG&E doesn't count square footage. They simply look at the "typical" usage for a home and then apply that average as a baseline. So yeah, if you have a mega-mansion with mega-AC's then you're probably going to be paying out the nose for Summertime energy. But at that point you're also mega-rich and probably have solar+batteries.
These houses were built in the 90's. We're in Contra Costa south of Mount Diablo. I don't think the construction is that bad (the windows are ok), and the ducting is ok.
The issue is more the general architecture of the house is stupid. Like we have large roof panes that have virtually no attic (only vaulted ceilings). So imagine a two story house with vaulted ceilings as just one big gigantic attic. Cooling it is a nightmare due to the volume of air inside. If we could get some big trees in the south-side of the yard, the shading would be awesome. But this is California; we don't have the huge lot sizes or flexibility to just start planting big azzz trees like what I'm used to in other states. The ducts themselves are also poor candidates for creating zones so we're stuck with a 3 ton upstairs and 3 ton downstairs.
Unfortunately the side of the house that would be amazing for solar also points North
Some homes in this subdivision can get 12 kW+ systems in, and I'm super jealous hah.
I am a big fan of market choices. I am also in favor of variable pricing within reason. Texas is not a good example based on what was reported about rates during that storm. If there is some way to let those 6,000 sq ft houses pay exobitant rates for their perceived right to load the grid and use that money to build in resiliency, I am all for it.
What's amazing is that there are only a few of these big houses near me with solar.
Dont think I didnt notice this pre emptive statement to encourage me not to move the post somewhere or merge it with some other discussion
.Anyway, I read through this thread because I was surprised at even the idea that a homeowner could be "forced" to be on one of these programs. I honestly believe your friend / neighbor has engaged in a game of "telephone game" with you on this topic.
I do not think what your neighbor heard is what they said. As the rest of this post I linked to states from you, I think that they probably told him that if he didnt participate in such a program, he would be contributing to brownouts / power outages etc, or he might be subject to brownouts when it was hot if he didnt do something.
I do not think for a second they told him they would actually disconnect his service if he did not comply. Thats likely just what he translated it to internally, then told you.
I have said before I was in one of those programs before, and would never (ever, ever, ever ever) do it again, based on my experiences with it when I was in there... and I AM someone who "sets the thermostat to 80 degrees inside" in the summer, along with having solar and now powerwalls.
I will never again give the utility or anyone else any control over my AC, thermostats etc that I dont have to. No "rush hour rewards" no connecting to my nest thermostat to raise the temp (because they raise it no matter what you have it set to, even if you have it set to 80 or 80 degrees when its 110 outside, it raises 2-3 degrees, so you get punished no matter what temp you set).
skepticcyclist
Member
Same here. I was on two different programs. The first was a system similar to what is described in this thread with that device on my compressor. The second was the control over my thermostat just to get a reduction off my bill each month. And I too will never do either again.
I too set my AC between 78-82 so there is no reason for them to turn it up. I just signed up to save a few bucks and thought that they wouldn't turn it up because it was already set high. And I was wrong. But since I did get an alert ahead of time, I would turn my AC down about 4 degrees prior to them turning it up. This way when they turned it up, they would turn it up to what I had it set at all day.
Now with solar I'm no longer have them control my thermostat. Even with solar I still set my AC between 78-82
You're kind of touching on why the power companies want to repeal net metering. The PoCos argue that the vast majority of the 6,000 sq ft homes get the benefit of being served by the grid, but those same homes are the ones that invested in solar to reduce their monthly energy costs. This reduction of money from the uber-rich shifted the burden/costs to everyone else who didn't have solar or batteries.
So the big azzz home gets the benefit of grid resiliency and has the ability to use the grid for net metering, but the big home isn't paying its fair share to maintain that huge/expensive grid through exorbitant monthly rates for generation and transmission. The big azzz home becomes the evil entity that shifted more costs onto disadvantaged and middle-class rate payers. PoCo's want that one big home to incur a $1,500 monthly electricity bill (to be paid to PG&E) so that 99 other bills can be reduced by $10.
But we know this isn't how solar works. The PoCo's tactic of painting millionaire mega-homes as the "problem" is BS. The average middle-class homeowner who is just trying to figure things out is the one getting smashed. Most solar customers are just middle class households.
PS, I'm not in a gated subdivision with 6,000 sq ft homes. This is my first home. I don't have some trust fund or wealth manager on speed dial. I simply cannot grasp why the PoCo decided to make it their business to get into my business over and over and over. And the concept of the PoCo basically strong-arming my neighbor into installing some weird energy boxes is just so weird to me. But I guess most people think this is normal/rationalized behavior from the PoCo?
Whatever they said to him; they got him to install two weird black boxes on his house that he doesn't want. And they've threatened him enough that he's too scared to call PG&E to ask them to remove said boxes. He'd rather keep the boxes, than have to explain to his family why their energy went offline because he asked the PoCo to remove those boxes.
If he loses power during another brownout, I guess he can blame all the other homes that didn't install SmartAC devices. But I like his approach of just wanting to get solar and batteries
So your homes were built around the time of ours, early 90s here. Moved in in ‘93. We chose to be further inland away from bay for more yard space. Really wanted a 1-story but lots are so limited in size that house were left little yard space, so settled for 2-story. Our master bedroom and husband’s office of course gets the hottest sun. Planted a palm on that side a few years ago that should shade the stucco walls for his office in a few more years (thankfully that side yard wide enough and palm roots won’t damage hardscape or foundation or underground pipes). We did buy our house with a room downstairs that could be a bedroom with thoughts of cooler Summer sleeping but haven’t used it for that yet. Installed solar attic fan but never saw as much cooling effect as we hoped so don’t advise those. In 2018 I tried living with thermostat at 80 for a few months using fans in upper bedrooms but it was too hot. I’m more heat sensitive and we found we didn’t sleep but tossed and turned all night. No wind most nights. After that year said we had to do something. The wildfires and PSPS really were the final straw.These houses were built in the 90's. We're in Contra Costa south of Mount Diablo. I don't think the construction is that bad (the windows are ok), and the ducting is ok.
The issue is more the general architecture of the house is stupid. Like we have large roof panes that have virtually no attic (only vaulted ceilings). So imagine a two story house with vaulted ceilings as just one big gigantic attic. Cooling it is a nightmare due to the volume of air inside. If we could get some big trees in the south-side of the yard, the shading would be awesome. But this is California; we don't have the huge lot sizes or flexibility to just start planting big azzz trees like what I'm used to in other states. The ducts themselves are also poor candidates for creating zones so we're stuck with a 3 ton upstairs and 3 ton downstairs.
Unfortunately the side of the house that would be amazing for solar also points North
The houses in the bay area communities I think use to generally not have AC installed and relied on open windows and evening breezes to cool houses off at night but think that trend has changed over last few years. We know a few people who ended up adding whole house AC, just too many warm nights and more humid around the bay. Really a shame the redwoods that use to be on the Peninsula mountains were cut down. Long time residents said the fog they held really helped moderate the climate here.
I hope our various comments on our houses give people something to think about before buying a house now. Your biggest expense in life usually. Fancy, complex roofs and how the house faces in addition other features like AC units and landscaping can make a big difference in comfort, your electrical bill and solar panel availability.
So do I, actually. Equal parts "do my part" and also "maximize exports during summer production for winter use". My PV system covered about 110% of my usage before I got an EV (in 2018), and now if I am careful I am basically net zero at the end of my 12 month true up period. Last year my true up bill was $16 (for the yearly true up).
I honestly dont mind "doing my part" but "I" will be the one in control of it, not someone else.
In part the Bay Area’s general plan (ABAG) to accommodate and expand the growth of new homes in cities here I think plays a big factor. Utilities can’t keep up with added expansion. People don’t want more power plants/substations in their cities. Older utility equipment from what I understand from some threads on here doesn’t mesh well with increased number of buildings with solar panels (commercial and residential). This planned population expansion hasn’t only affected electricity usage (which is being increased by preventing natural gas installs too and eventually impacted by EVs in numbers) but water too. The community I live in has to approve additional housing units, no choice, that some developers want to build despite the fact we’re in a drought and we have water restrictions everywhere. Let’s face it we are all going to pay one way or another.
Yeah - I think there should be options, and I think it is great that utilities offer these programs - as options. I also limited my statement to my location (where solar adoption is not so high to see the same duck curve issues as elsewhere.) And, I did get batteries, so if the utilities out here signal they need support during that time by bringing in TOU rates, I would take advantage. So far, they have not done so (but have been piloting TOU rates.) As I have commented before, it is interesting to watch from afar as California grapples with these issues, on the hope that things will be worked out a bit better by the time we have to deal with them on the other side of the country.
I do hope Tesla partners with more utilities to setup grid exporting programs. It is in some ways similar to the A/C and thermostat programs as far as helping reduce net usage at peak times, but it does so with minimal inconvenience - only risk is a power outage - and the programs so far seem to be easy to opt out of.
So far my goal is to keep my upstairs with high ceilings at 74 degrees. Will see if this works in August
We’re a bit apprehensive as to what summer/fall will bring even with our solar/PWs now. We can tolerate 78, and we still use two room fans. Highly recommend the Dyson stand fans BTW (we bought this one at Costco for a lot less but think it’s now discontinued, but nice, quiet and circulates air without sending things flying).
Right before scheduling our Tesla install we upped from 2 to 3 PWs because out split AC system is from 2004 and only 10 SEER. Had been tempted to go to 4, which now I think would be difficult or impossible with code changes. Our goal was to have continuous service and ability to run AC during the peak summer/fall hot days/nights. After the lightning complex fires last year, wondering what this year will bring.
Right before scheduling our Tesla install we upped from 2 to 3 PWs because out split AC system is from 2004 and only 10 SEER. Had been tempted to go to 4, which now I think would be difficult or impossible with code changes. Our goal was to have continuous service and ability to run AC during the peak summer/fall hot days/nights. After the lightning complex fires last year, wondering what this year will bring.
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I guess that I am still surprised at the number of homes built without reasonable insulation. To me, it is the gift that keeps on giving. Our house was originally built with a 2x6" vaulted ceilings in much of it and, wait for it, 1" particle board as "insulation". WTH? Insulation made sense in 1970, too. You do wonder what the builder/owner was thinking.
The limited attic got upgraded to R60 shortly after moving in, but it took solar to put reasonable insulation on the roof as we were told that we needed to redo the particle board which was deemed to be "structurally deficient" by the solar team. (Yay!) The roof insulation made an enormous difference to the perceived comfort level, and made realize the roof/ceiling had been basically a black body radiator absorbing heat or radiating heat at the occupants. It made the house feel drafty, even though it wasn't.
I would love to put insulation under the floors, but the ROI is close to forever. I may still do it for comfort reasons. I don't get why code in a fire zone requires crawl space vents every six feet. It just seems so wrong. (Nor why California has such huge ventilation requirements for gas water heaters compared to other states.) I have learned to accept building codes as the local culture but I do look at a number of codes and wonder how we got to some of the regulations.
Improving home energy efficiency is a tough nut to crack in a cost effective way. I am not very heat tolerant, so anyone dealing with high heat has my sympathy. (Humid or not)
All the best,
BG
The limited attic got upgraded to R60 shortly after moving in, but it took solar to put reasonable insulation on the roof as we were told that we needed to redo the particle board which was deemed to be "structurally deficient" by the solar team. (Yay!) The roof insulation made an enormous difference to the perceived comfort level, and made realize the roof/ceiling had been basically a black body radiator absorbing heat or radiating heat at the occupants. It made the house feel drafty, even though it wasn't.
I would love to put insulation under the floors, but the ROI is close to forever. I may still do it for comfort reasons. I don't get why code in a fire zone requires crawl space vents every six feet. It just seems so wrong. (Nor why California has such huge ventilation requirements for gas water heaters compared to other states.) I have learned to accept building codes as the local culture but I do look at a number of codes and wonder how we got to some of the regulations.
Improving home energy efficiency is a tough nut to crack in a cost effective way. I am not very heat tolerant, so anyone dealing with high heat has my sympathy. (Humid or not)
All the best,
BG
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