Phantom Braking

[S4WRXTTCS]

It’s not expensive because it’s better, or high end. It’s expensive because it’s got a 25k battery instead of a 5k engine.

I'm not sure higher end really is better regardless of vehicle type.

Usually what happens is technology trickles down. What trickles down is usually vastly improved versions where they fixed the problems, and improved functionality. It took Subaru many revisions to improve eyesight and to reduce the likelihood at braking for shadows.

So customers of lower end cars likely expect stuff to just work. It's one of the rare times the rich are abused to help the poor.

In fact I think I'd be more concerned about a $25K car owner test driving my Tesla with Full Phantom Vision than I would a customer who is used to driving the latest European glitchware.

In fact I think the Range Rover Sport Unlimited that I drove a few years ago prepared me nicely for Tesla.

It didn't actually have Adaptive Cruise Control as the dealer said he never got any with that option as it was crap. I told him I was fully ready as I was a Windows user, but he didn't get the joke.

 

[Knightshade]

TLDR

I did read the manual (2020, the model of our Forester) - nowhere in the Subaru manual did it say 'the system may brake unexpectedly [for no reason]' It did give multiple specific occasions. (Also, I don't count braking for a car in my lane a fail - that's intended/expected behavior')

Which is exactly what the Tesla one says.

I interpreted the notice in the Tesla manual to mean "TACC may [randomly] brake [for no reason]" Re-reading it, one could also interpret it to mean something similar to what was printed in the Subaru manual, just much less verbosely.

That's a really wordy way of admitting you were wrong.

Regardless, I base my opinion of the Subaru adaptive cruise on a year of owning and driving it with zero issues.

Ok. But as pointed out to you- LOTS AND LOTS of Subaru owners do not have that experience and have lots of issues

You insisted the subaru system had no issues because YOU PERSONALLY had none.

I pointed out the same is true of Tesla- LOTS of folks the system works great.

A tiny number seem to have major problems.

Same Same.

In fact Subaru from what I can tell actually has more open lawsuits against it for unexpected braking- I linked to a couple of em.


So again your original claim was flatly untrue.

I can't even drive my Tesla 20 minutes without having it slow down unnecessarily.

Weird...I drove mine about 90 minutes today, mostly highway, and has 0 such slowdowns.

Almost like ONE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE does not generalize to a fleet of 2 million cars or something huh?

I don't doubt that the Subaru system will have occasional mistakes but they are incredibly rare - several orders of magnitude less frequent

And now you're back to making up nonsense pulled from your backside--- trying to take personal anecdote and generalize to millions of cars.

Despite having been shown tons of examples of Subaru mistakes not being rare at all. Multiple class action lawsuits over those mistakes in fact.



Protip: When you're in a hole- stop digging.

Finally, the consumer reports graph you posted compared autopilot capabilities, not cruise control and is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Are you unaware TACC is part of autopilot?

In fact if you check the NHTSA complaints about the braking stuff- it's often (though not always) somebody using autopilot in a place the manual specifically tells them not to but blaming the car anyway.

It's truly baffling to see people try time and again to defend such a poorly performing system.

It is.

Do you own Subaru stock or something to explain why you keep doing it?

Everyone touts Tesla's technology, if they can't improve on what's already out there

They have.

See again the CR scoring of the different systems. They beat everybody. And most by a pretty wide margin in both capabilities and performance.

 

[enemji]

I think it is time we change the title of this thread to what it really is - “Great Expectations”

 

[sleepydoc]

It’s not expensive because it’s better, or high end. It’s expensive because it’s got a 25k battery instead of a 5k engine.

22K -5K + 25K = 42K - you're still 20K under a model Y! Are you trying to argue that it doesn't even need to be as good? Like I said, for features like cruise control that are well established technology (yes, even adaptive cruise is well established at this point,) I expect it to be as good as a cheap, entry level car.

One thing to keep in mind with phantom braking is none of this is AEB braking.

There have been companies like Nissan who had to do recalls because of false AEB braking. False AEB braking is a significant safety issue.

I've never had a false AEB braking in either Tesla I've had even during that "fun" time with 10.3 where it got a recalled for AEB braking.

The only false AEB event I've ever experienced was one time with my Jeep Wrangler when going down a ramp to garage parking where it appeared like I was going to hit a wall as it was a fairly steep ramp.

That freaked the hell out of it, and it slammed on the breaks. I was only going 15 or so. I didn't submit a complaint it seemed realistic for it to get fooled in that moment.

The average Tesla phantom braking event is a nuisance event.

It's almost like Elon is out to end all marriages.

I've had several false AEB events (on the order of 4 or 5) in the year I've owned my MY. They scare the crap out of you! I think one or two have been with TACC, others have been at other times. I can't remember specific circumstances anymore to say what may have triggered the events. As I recall it was never 'nothing,' though.

 

[Knightshade]

22K -5K + 25K = 42K - you're still 20K under a model Y! Are you trying to argue that it doesn't even need to be as good?

I mean, there's a laundry list of OTHER things better than a civic too on a Y. Performance, carrying capacity, fuel and maintenance costs, resale value, OTA updates, vastly better L2 ADAS (see again CRs scores vs Honda), we could be here all day....

(yes, even adaptive cruise is well established at this point,) I expect it to be as good as a cheap, entry level car.

Speaking of Honda- HEY GUESS WHAT?

Honda Brake System Problems | Lemon Law Help

The Honda brake system problems stems from its CMBS, or Collision Mitigation Braking System. Learn more about these issues here.

knightlawgroup.com

According to multiple class action lawsuits, a Honda Collision Mitigation system problem can cause random engagement of the brakes, sudden deceleration, and shuddering and jerking of the vehicles...

...The CMBS allegedly provides false alerts for obstacles that are not present. Some Honda owners and lessees allege that their vehicles’ CMBS mistakenly reports opposing traffic as obstacles, all while failing to detect actual obstacles

Why you keep pretending this is not an inherent issue with adaptive cruise in all brands remains a mystery.

Jumping up and down and saying it's more expensive is a nonsense argument.

Even more expensive cars than Teslas ALSO have unneeded braking problems because it is inherent in the technology---


Tesla seems to be the only one legitimately even TRYING to improve it (by massive fleet data to train neural nets to more accurately recognize ACTUAL obstacles)-- something none of the other car makers are even attempting.

 

[Gilliland]

I'm not going to argue with anyone here, but I will discuss my own experiences. I own a MYLR which I have been driving for 6+ months. I also own a Mazda CX-5 which I drove for 3 years before letting my daughter take it to college. Both cars have a collision avoidance system. Both cars have traffic aware cruise control. The Mazda also has regular cruise control.

Collision avoidance:

I have never experienced in either car the kind of phantom braking that some here talk about. The kind that throws you forward until the seat belt locks to hold you back. And, fortunately, I have never put either car into a situation where it needed to actually use the collision avoidance system for a genuine non-phantom threat.

If the Mazda detects a likely collision, it first gives you a warning and gives you time to put on the brakes. If you don't do so, it will do so for you. There is no guarantee that you won't have a collision, but the impact will be reduced. I have experienced the warning from time to time, usually when a car in front of me is turning. I can see that he will be out of the way before I reach him, but the Mazda is not able to make that determination. The warning is annoying, but it's worth it if the collision avoidance might one day save my life. Or my daughter's life.

Traffic aware cruise control:

In the Tesla, I have experienced random slowdowns when TACC is enabled that seem to have no cause. The car may slow from 35 to 25 for no reason and then gradually speed back up. Or it may slow from 65 to 55 in the same manner. Is it dangerous? No. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it common? Very. It happens a lot.

The Mazda does not exhibit this behavior. It keeps a constant speed unless there is a slower car ahead of it, in which case it slows down to maintain a safe distance. When the car in front speeds up or leaves the lane, the Mazda returns to its set speed and maintains it again.

I wish the Tesla TACC worked as well as the Mazda system. If Mazda can do it, then Tesla should be able to as well.

Obviously this is anecdotal. My experience is that of just one person. But I have read reports from dozens, perhaps scores, of others reporting the same behavior from their Teslas. I've never read any such report about a Mazda.

Regular cruise control:

The Mazda also has regular cruise control. There are times when I want to maintain a constant speed, but I also want to manage the distance between me and the next car myself, often to avoid a constant stream of aggressive drivers from jumping into my lane and cutting me off. Yes, it forces me to be a more aggressive driver myself, which means that I need to stay very focused on what other drivers are doing. In that situation, regular cruise control can let me dial my speed up and down as needed. Using cruise control in that way can also help me avoid gradually increasing my speed without noticing it until I see the cop ahead with a laser gun. It's not needed often, but it is very useful when it is needed.

I wish my Tesla had regular cruise control for the times when it meets my needs better than TACC does.

 

[sleepydoc]

That's a really wordy way of admitting you were wrong.

Yes - as I said the statement can be interpreted differently. Maybe you can admit when you're wrong, too?

Since you seem to think google can give you an accurate comparison, try googling Tesla phantom braking and compare. (When I googled Subaru phantom braking I actually got as many articles Tesla TACC phantom braking as I did about Subaru. When I looked a the Subaru article, virtually every comment was "my system works perfectly" (the article also said the lawsuit was because it had problems in areas that had multiple lines, etc). I asked my brother in law who's had a Prius with adaptive cruise for 10 years how often he has phantom braking. "umm, maybe once or twice?"

Oh, and if you read the reports I could find on problems with the Subaru system, they were actually in areas where it wasn't supposed to be used, too.

I found the CR reference you posted and the article tells a different story than what you posted. Regardless, like I said - this discussion is about TACC, not autopilot. To be sure AP uses TACC but that's only one part. (FYI -0 when I searched "Consumer Reports Tesla Autopilot" I got "Tesla Autopilot: too much autonomy" and "Tesla's new autopilot: Better but still needs improvement" "Consumer reports ranks tesla's autopilot 'a distant second'" and "Consumer reports calls for Tesla to disable Autopilot" Not really sounding like a ringing endorsement. (Disclaimer - I did not read all the articles; those were the headlines that came up on the search)

 

[sleepydoc]

I still remember the time when simple weatherstripping on a Lamborghini was worse than a corolla. It has been a while I have paid attention to either of these model. Are they any closer?

Well, what do you expect from an Italian car?

I think it is time we change the title of this thread to what it really is - “Great Expectations”

or Great disappointments - I had great expectations of my MY. They are being tempered greatly.

I like driving an EV but he heater is anemic and not up to MN winters. The ride is terrible. The latest UI update sucks and TACC is a joke.

On the plus side, FSD is steadily improving (despite TACC,) and it has a ton of cargo space.

 

[sleepydoc]

Why you keep pretending this is not an inherent issue with adaptive cruise in all brands remains a mystery.

See @Gilliland 's post above. Then go test drive a Toyota. And a Mazda. I'd stay away from Chrysler, though.

Oh, and that Honda link you posted? It was from a law firm looking to sue Honda. What do you think they're going to say?

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

22K -5K + 25K = 42K - you're still 20K under a model Y! Are you trying to argue that it doesn't even need to be as good? Like I said, for features like cruise control that are well established technology (yes, even adaptive cruise is well established at this point,) I expect it to be as good as a cheap, entry level car.

I've had several false AEB events (on the order of 4 or 5) in the year I've owned my MY. They scare the crap out of you! I think one or two have been with TACC, others have been at other times. I can't remember specific circumstances anymore to say what may have triggered the events. As I recall it was never 'nothing,' though.

Yours seems to be an unusual case as the vast majority of phantom braking events reported on TMC are of the more moderate kind. Sure there are a handful of harder ones, but full on AEB type braking is rare (except for that FSD Beta 10.3 fiasco)

Do you have just Basic AP? or FSD?

Have you tried recalibrating the cameras?

I'd do the camera recalibration and then start turning off all the stuff I could think of in the autopilot section to see if it resulted in any improvements.

For FSD owners the Traffic Light response one will cause more phantom braking if enabled.

 

[Knightshade]

The Mazda does not exhibit this behavior.

Well, it does generally- even if you didn't experience it in your specific Mazda.

Just a few easily found examples:

Mazda3 Recalled for Sudden, Unexpected Emergency Braking

Consumer Reports shares details of the Mazda3 recall. More than 35,000 Mazda3 vehicles are being recalled because their automatic emergency braking (AEB) system could falsely activate.

www.consumerreports.org

Mazda is recalling more than 35,000 Mazda3 sedans and hatchbacks from the 2019 and 2020 model years because their automatic emergency braking (AEB) systems may unexpectedly and inadvertently engage while driving

Mazda Class Action Alleges Smart Brake Defect

Two Florida residents allege in a Mazda class action lawsuit that their late model vehicle contains defective “smart” brakes which activate unexpectedly.

topclassactions.com

the Mazda class action lawsuit, 2018 through 2020 model year Mazda vehicles containing SCBS or SBS systems are affected by a braking defect...
...the plaintiffs claim that the camera improperly activates the braking systems and the vehicle slows down or stops – even though there is no chance of collision.

Smart Brake Engaging Unnecessarily

www.cx30talk.com

The problem is the software is simply not sophisticated enough to perform its intended function without being obtrusive and annoying.

 

[Knightshade]

See @Gilliland 's post above.

I did.

Did you?

I have never experienced in either car the kind of phantom braking that some here talk about.

Is it dangerous? No.

Seems pretty different from your claims.

Then go test drive a Toyota. And a Mazda.

Already cited numerous examples of Mazda having the same or worse issues.

The last Toyota with active cruise I drove was absolute garbage in that the system didn't operate below 30 mph... making it useless if you drive anywhere with actual traffic.

That's apart from them not having made a car actually worth owning since 1998.

(Lexus is a different story as far as cars worth owning- only need to go back to the mid-2000s before they stopped making worthwhile stuff)

But of course they ALSO HAVE THESE PROBLEMS.

Car News - Latest Auto News, First Looks and First Drives | Edmunds

Car News from Edmunds keeps you informed of the latest auto news, first looks, first drives and videos.

www.edmunds.com

Under certain situations, the pre-collision system (PCS) could interpret a steel joint or plate in the roadway as an object that triggers PCS activation," Toyota said in a statement. "If this occurs, the PCS warning buzzer sounds and the system may apply the service brake automatically.

"Unexpected braking could increase the risk of a crash."

Story actually cites 2 accidents--- which is 2 more than anyone has shown a real source for Teslas phantom braking causing.

Oh, and that Honda link you posted? It was from a law firm looking to sue Honda. What do you think they're going to say?

It cited multiple other Honda braking lawsuits.

Do you think they're all baseless for some reason?

Is your google broken or do you just dislike finding out you're wrong about stuff without someone helping you?

Since you seem to think google can give you an accurate comparison, try googling Tesla phantom braking and compare. (When I googled Subaru phantom braking I actually got as many articles Tesla TACC phantom braking as I did about Subaru

Ah! I guess your google IS broken.

Well, user error really.

You're searching using a common TESLA term for the issue and wondering why you get a lot of Tesla hits.

Search on CMBS braking instead and you'll get a ton of Honda hits.

Search on Eyesight braking and you'll get a ton of Subaru hits.

This is at least the second time in the thread someone (2 different someones now) is pointing this exact problem out to you too.

Seriously dude, everything seems to be a HUGE chore with you.


But here ya go, once again doing your work for you-

Collision Mitigation System Scare

www.passportforums.com

the car abruptly started braking and cut the gas because it thought I was going to hit the car in the middle lane as I was moving to the left lane.

slams on the brakes even when passing close to a turning car.

The system is very aggressive and does occasionally seem to engage for unknown reasons. I have had it slam on the brakes when no one is in front of me.

A car was turning left & I was starting to accelerate to continue straight when all of a sudden the brakes slammed on

Recently we were headed home and being on a two lane highway that expands into 4 lanes we had the PP slam the brakes on for whatever reason I don't know

yesterday the "BRAKE" warning came on the screen and the PP braked hard (three times) as I was driving north on a two-lane road

wheel shakes and PP slows down with nobody in front of me

BRAKE! Front Collision System Ultra Sensitive?

www.passportforums.com

Anyone else get the orange BRAKE! on their center display often, even under “normal” driving conditions? I’ve noticed when rounding a curve and a car is coming the other way ... almost as if it things I’m heading straight into oncoming traffic.

It does seem a bit sensitive with the false-positives, especially on curves.

I've had the same issue with mine, the system is VERY sensitive.

The collision system is a piece of garbage on an otherwise good vehicle. I've made the habit to disable the collision avoidance as it is much more dangerous and distracting on than off. False triggers constantly, and if you ever drive in heavy city traffic it will go off constantly as people are moving around normally changing lanes, etc. I have had a couple false brake checks caused by the system

Normal, same on the Pilot and Ridgeline for several years.

Mines super sensitive too and actually slammed on the brakes while I was on the interstate with no other cars around

Sometimes I get brakes, too.

This morning was the last straw ..... with only about a 1or 2 of snow on the road this morning at 0615 I had the a scare when an oncoming car set off the CMBS and it slammed the brakes on and threw me into a skid.

ALL of the collision systems are either so unreliable as to be useless/dangerous to use (LKAS,ACC)

tells a different story than what you posted.

No it does not.

It tells literally the story I posted

Tesla outscored every other system in capabilities and performance.

CR did have different scores for OTHER aspects of the system...

Driver monitoring for example.... which is actually a GREAT example.... they gave Caddy a high score for having a camera that monitors the driver--- and Tesla a low score for lacking one....

So Tesla pushed on OTA update to start using the interior camera for driver monitoring. The exact thing CR was critical of them not having.

Instead of CR praising this, they freaked out with an OMG PRIVACY CONCERNS story.

The fact they frequently show anti-tesla bias in their reporting is what makes even them having to admit their ADAS system is the most capable on the market all the more remarkable.

Disclaimer - I did not read all the articles; those were the headlines

Not just all. Any.

Clearly.

If you're gonna keep making up nonsense about what you IMAGINE the actual story says- then admitting you didn't read beyond the headline, I'm not sure why you bother continuing to even post other than to waste everyone elses time.


It's like you make a ridiculous false claim-- Multiple people point out it's untrue, with sources-- you ignore the sources then somehow repeat the false claim, or just slightly change it (Like how every time you get hit with 10 examples of false braking in whatever brand you claimed doesn't have it, you just name a different brand and insist THEY don't have it.... over and over again, being wrong every time)

 

[enemji]

Well, what do you expect from an Italian car?


or Great disappointments - I had great expectations of my MY. They are being tempered greatly.

I like driving an EV but he heater is anemic and not up to MN winters. The ride is terrible. The latest UI update sucks and TACC is a joke.

On the plus side, FSD is steadily improving (despite TACC,) and it has a ton of cargo space.

Only Great Expectations lead to Great Disappointments

I hope you have read that in your younger days. Helps you build a good foundation

 

[Gilliland]

Well, it does generally- even if you didn't experience it in your specific Mazda.

As I said, I have not experienced phantom braking in the collision avoidance system of either car. Your reports suggest that others have experienced it in Mazdas. Other reports here make it clear that many have experienced it in Teslas. But I have never experienced it in either car. That's why I made it perfectly clear from the start that I was describing only my own experiences.

If it exists in Mazdas, I hope Mazda will fix it. If it exists in Teslas, I hope Tesla will fix it.

However, I have experienced the phantom slowdowns in Tesla's TACC. I also hope they fix that. It's not overly dangerous, but it is annoying, both to me and to drivers around me. My Mazda handles that perfectly, so Tesla should be able to as well.

In addition, I hope Tesla adds a standard "dumb" cruise control like the one most cars have because there are times when it is useful and TACC is not.

Incidentally, in your note you quoted a line that I wrote about TACC and then wrote rebuttal (and posted examples) of a problem in collision avoidance.

 

[sleepydoc]

I did.

Did you?






Seems pretty different from your claims.




Already cited numerous examples of Mazda having the same or worse issues.

The last Toyota with active cruise I drove was absolute garbage in that the system didn't operate below 30 mph... making it useless if you drive anywhere with actual traffic.

That's apart from them not having made a car actually worth owning since 1998.

(Lexus is a different story as far as cars worth owning- only need to go back to the mid-2000s before they stopped making worthwhile stuff)

But of course they ALSO HAVE THESE PROBLEMS.

Car News - Latest Auto News, First Looks and First Drives | Edmunds

Car News from Edmunds keeps you informed of the latest auto news, first looks, first drives and videos.

www.edmunds.com

Story actually cites 2 accidents--- which is 2 more than anyone has shown a real source for Teslas phantom braking causing.






It cited multiple other Honda braking lawsuits.

Do you think they're all baseless for some reason?

Is your google broken or do you just dislike finding out you're wrong about stuff without someone helping you?






Ah! I guess your google IS broken.

Well, user error really.

You're searching using a common TESLA term for the issue and wondering why you get a lot of Tesla hits.

Search on CMBS braking instead and you'll get a ton of Honda hits.

Search on Eyesight braking and you'll get a ton of Subaru hits.

This is at least the second time in the thread someone (2 different someones now) is pointing this exact problem out to you too.

Seriously dude, everything seems to be a HUGE chore with you.


But here ya go, once again doing your work for you-

Collision Mitigation System Scare

www.passportforums.com

BRAKE! Front Collision System Ultra Sensitive?

www.passportforums.com

No it does not.

It tells literally the story I posted

Tesla outscored every other system in capabilities and performance.

CR did have different scores for OTHER aspects of the system...

Driver monitoring for example.... which is actually a GREAT example.... they gave Caddy a high score for having a camera that monitors the driver--- and Tesla a low score for lacking one....

So Tesla pushed on OTA update to start using the interior camera for driver monitoring. The exact thing CR was critical of them not having.

Instead of CR praising this, they freaked out with an OMG PRIVACY CONCERNS story.

The fact they frequently show anti-tesla bias in their reporting is what makes even them having to admit their ADAS system is the most capable on the market all the more remarkable.





Not just all. Any.

Clearly.

If you're gonna keep making up nonsense about what you IMAGINE the actual story says- then admitting you didn't read beyond the headline, I'm not sure why you bother continuing to even post other than to waste everyone elses time.


It's like you make a ridiculous false claim-- Multiple people point out it's untrue, with sources-- you ignore the sources then somehow repeat the false claim, or just slightly change it (Like how every time you get hit with 10 examples of false braking in whatever brand you claimed doesn't have it, you just name a different brand and insist THEY don't have it.... over and over again, being wrong every time)

TLDR - if you can’t say something in less than 30 pages then you’re probably not going to get your point across.

I’ll respond to your last paragraph because I have no more time for tripe -
nothing I’ve said is ridiculous or false, nor have I changed my story. You seem to think phantom braking is not an issue in Teslas however hundreds of people here as well as the NHTSA seem to disagree with you. Regardless, Tesla‘s TACC performs worse than any other adaptive cruise system I’ve used and in poling several people using teslas and other makes of cars the people who own teslas all complain that it’s an issue (justifiYing it to varying degrees) while the people who own other makes never note a problem.

you seem to be happy with a second rate system. maybe it’s because your system actually works or maybe it’s because you don‘t expect it to. Either way, good for you. Personally, I expect it to at least work as well as every other car I’ve driven, even if it doesn’t meet Elon’s claims. I didn’t buy a Tesla to have a mediocre car.

 

[Gilliland]

TLDR

I’ll respond to your last paragraph because I have no more time for tripe -
nothing I’ve said is ridiculous or false, nor have I changed my story. You seem to think phantom braking is not an issue in Teslas however hundreds of people here as well as the NHTSA seem to disagree with you. Regardless, Tesla‘s TACC performs worse than any other adaptive cruise system I’ve used and in poling several people using teslas and other makes of cars the people who own teslas all complain that it’s an issue (justifiYing it to varying degrees) while the people who own other makes never note a problem.

It's important to differentiate between the extreme phantom braking that takes place as collision avoidance and the phantom slowdowns that seem to be a part of TACC. Obviously, I don't know Tesla's code, so I can't say whether or not they are related in any way, but I suspect not.

 

[Dewg]

Sleepy, I honestly don't understand why you own a Tesla. You seem very unhappy with it. Please sell it and buy something that will make you happy. No one deserves to be that put off by their car.

 

[hatch]

In the Tesla, I have experienced random slowdowns when TACC is enabled that seem to have no cause. The car may slow from 35 to 25 for no reason and then gradually speed back up. Or it may slow from 65 to 55 in the same manner. Is it dangerous? No. Is it annoying? Yes. Is it common? Very. It happens a lot.

The Mazda does not exhibit this behavior. It keeps a constant speed unless there is a slower car ahead of it, in which case it slows down to maintain a safe distance. When the car in front speeds up or leaves the lane, the Mazda returns to its set speed and maintains it again.

I wish the Tesla TACC worked as well as the Mazda system. If Mazda can do it, then Tesla should be able to as well.

I STILL say it's the inability (unwillingness of the programmers) to vary the regen. If the regen was variable and the physical brakes were used some, the Tesla could BEAT the Mazda in smoothness. The Mazda doesn't jerk because when it lets off the gas, it just coasts. Heaven forbid a Tesla could just coast! This is one of the areas where Tesla's stubborness and hubris is on full display.

So what i don't get - how are these super awesome - $250k value - robotaxis going to be remotely successful? What robotaxi rider is going to want anything but a super smooth ride with no jerking 100% of the time in every ride? IMO a computer will never drive better than a person. We live in an analog world that the computer will never understand.

 

[Knightshade]

TLDR - if you can’t say something in less than 30 pages then you’re probably not going to get your point across.

This is objectively false.

I told you, repeatedly, that other brands have the same problems in brief sentences.

You kept denying this was true- so then I posted extensive sourcing of this fact.

And yet you kept denying it, and now proudly point out you can't be bothered to actually read anything that's proving you wrong.

So it's hard to conclude you're doing anything but trolling at this point. And not even very well.

nothing I’ve said is ridiculous or false, nor have I changed my story.

Case in point

You've said a BUNCH of outright false stuff, and been provided with multiple sources proving it. Then told us you didn't bother reading them but you're sure you're still right.

You seem to think phantom braking is not an issue in Teslas

This too is outright false.

What I [B}actually said[/B] was that it's a problem inherent to all active cruise systems. Something you kept, falsely, claiming was untrue, despite repeatedly being shown proof it was.

Since you never actually read anyones posts I guess we know how you got yet another basic fact wrong though

 

[Knightshade]

As I said, I have not experienced phantom braking in the collision avoidance system of either car. Your reports suggest that others have experienced it in Mazdas. Other reports here make it clear that many have experienced it in Teslas. But I have never experienced it in either car.

Indeed- that was the entire point of the recent posts trying to correct the few folks in here who keep, dishonestly since they keep doing it despite mountains of evidence proving them wrong, that this is magically a TESLA only problem--- rather than the truth, which is that while it's generally a rare behavior it happens to all brands of active cruise control

If it exists in Mazdas, I hope Mazda will fix it. If it exists in Teslas, I hope Tesla will fix it.

But this seems to misunderstand the issue.

There's nothing for Mazda to "fix"-- occasional false braking is inherent to a basic active cruise control system. That's why this issue can be found in every brand of such a system


The only thing Tesla has going for it above others is instead of relying on slapping in 3rd party parts that are the same parts going in different brands of vehicles, Tesla is in continual development on their own systems and cars.

That is part of why they so consistently beat everyone else in actual capabilities and performance.... and because they are actively trying to use neural networks to improve system perception they are the only brand that really can improve their own system--- and can do so on existing vehicles at any point.

All the other OEMs just buy something off the shelf, and then unless forced by NHTSA never update it again....

Incidentally, in your note you quoted a line that I wrote about TACC and then wrote rebuttal (and posted examples) of a problem in collision avoidance.

I'm not really sure an owner who has the car slam on the brakes without cause cares about which system did it though. Certainly at least 2 of the ones complaining here about it seem to feel that way as they remain uninterested in any nuance at all.

Likewise in the threads I've posted of other brands braking unexpectedly we see the same thing- a few folks trying to point out which of the various systems is at fault (which I personally agree DOES matter), but then others saying they just want their car to stop braking for no reason- or that they've stopped using whatever system (including active cruise in many examples) because the braking is so bad.

Invariable you then get folks saying theirs works fine too.


So it's again the SAME thing going on here, with all the other brands, despite a certain someones insistence this is unique to Tesla.