Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Phone Distracted Driver on Autopilot Slams into Firetruck

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
For the 957,000th time, Autopilot/TACC does not detect stopped vehicles that were stopped before they came into radar range.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. It was one of the first test cases I tried when getting myself familiar with AP/TACC.

However, cases like these along with the subsequent discussions have proven time and time again that too many people do not realize this. I think Tesla needs to do a better job communicating this limitation. Not just in the manual, but every salesperson demonstrating the feature should mention it. Every delivery specialist turning over a vehicle with AP/TACC should go through a spiel that includes this information.
 
The excellent news for the driver is that he only broke his ankle after a 60mph crash in to a solid stationary object. That is one safe car!

Having driven thousands of miles in the States the straight roads seem to encourage drivers to look down at a phone/tablet at every red light and often in between them. Autopilot is a driver aid that is currently best used on the freeway or motorway and always with the driver holding the wheel lightly and paying attention.

It is not an AI and is still in the advanced Beta stage. Being able to afford and then to choose a Tesla implies a certain level of intelligence which driver's subsequently fail to show in their driving!
 
  • Disagree
  • Like
Reactions: croman and Ofarlig
I understand you are visibly upset that your car doesn't automatically brake in an emergency. But I stated Volvo's have AEB and they do. I made no reference to speed, only in your mind did I do that.
I was not the one that relied to you. But I thought your original post was meant to say that VOLVO stops and TESLA does not. It appears that both will fail at 60mph and both will stop at 30mph. So they are the same?
 
No effect of AEB?

Automatic Emergency Braking

  1. Designed to detect objects that the car may impact and applies the brakes accordingly

I am a broken record too asking about this. Autopilot gets the headlines but what about the AEB. People here keep saying...wellll..... it is not meant to slam on the brakes in a
worst case scenario... it will slow down and reduce the severity of the accident. But these autos are driving full speed into a wall. Not sure how any safety feature like AEB can
be excused in such a case. If you point that out, then we are back to the: 'well it's the driver's fault' response. Ugh.

And this goes for every automaker. If you are going to flout your automatic braking to prevent a collision, it had better work.

Musk suggested that your vehicle could be so safe, you could sleep in it by 2019.
Let him be the first guinea pig on his NY to LA 100% AP drive.
 
  • Like
Reactions: daktari and croman
No. And no.

For the 957,000th time, Autopilot/TACC does not detect stopped vehicles that were stopped before they came into radar range.

It never has done this since the day AP was released, still doesn't, and won't for some time.

Anyone saying contrary is wrong, and doesn't have enough experience with AP to know.
Tesla's Autopilot system is patently terrible if the above is true, as you say. AEB/TACC/AP cannot detect a stationary object? That would appear to be a most basic feature of "collision avoidance" systems. The fact that Teslas cannot detect stationary objects tells me that Tesla either is unwilling to write and test the proper code, or it lacks the sensor configuration needed to detect a stationary object. Either way, Tesla looks bad.

Volvos and Mercedes (possibly others) can detect stationary objects. Why can't Tesla? What's different with Tesla? Oh, right, a CEO who thinks he is exempt from delivering on customer and investor expectations...
 
I may be a bit off base here as I don't have my model S yet, but when I was driving a model S for a day (extended test drive) I only ever really saw the AP as something handy to have on as another "set of eyes" on the road. So that if I had to sneeze, rub my eyes, look at a notification on my phone, or get something from the center console the car was keeping an eye on things for me during a moment where my eyes were not on the road. I think people are just becoming complacent and thinking that the AP will all but drive the car for them and they can do things like hop into the passenger seat :p
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ciaopec
If every accident (and it will not be the last) of this kind is highly commented and debated, its not only due to Tesla/self driving bashing, but because of the special situation of level 2 autosteer and Tesla communication.

The last 30 years have seen tremendous progress in term of passive and active security improvement of our cars : Airbags, ABS, ESP and now ADAS, AEB, LCA, LKA. All those system have in commun to act as a safety net for the driver, and if case exist where they can cause accident of their own (see airbags accidental deployment), they overwhelmingly reduce accident rate or consequences.

Cruise control, TACC and Autosteer are different beast as they doesn't act as a safety net but relief driver from some boring tasks. if the confort and convenience improvement is obvious as the universal adaptation by Tesla driver is showing, the security side is more controversial.

Driving with TACC and/or Autosteer actually means the car has three pilots : the autopilot which drive and take decision on its own, the human pilot monitoring and ready to take control at every moment, the ADAS safety net which can take control in extreme situation. So used wisely by an attentive driver as advised, a Tesla on Autopilot with ADAS features should be much more secure than a car without autopilot and ADAS where all the responsibility rely on the faible human driver. But at the same time, its 100% sure that this automated driving will for some people or in some circonstances lead to an out of loop phenomena and distraction, even with hands on wheel (but attention not on the road).

And what is terribly difficult to handle for Tesla is that the better the system will work, the more people will be overconfident and get distracted. Its not by chance that all accidents reported happen on separated highway where the system is supposed to be used rather than during the many bold experiments you see on video on local roads. Some people who drive on Autopilot for hours without a flaw will inevitably get distracted at some point, and you will end up with only two driver : the autopilot which is far from perfect yet and the ADAS working only on limited cases. And according to the Swiss cheese model, when none of the three driver are operational, *sugar* happens.

The situation for Tesla is quite inconfortable, especially due to their poor communication (autosteer is a convenience, not a security feature) but not desperate. If autosteer is quite unique in its current form in term of deployment and usage its part due to Tesla being clearly less risk averse than other automakers but also being the only one able thank to its OTA to release a less than secure fonction that will get better over time.

At this point, if Tesla wants to regain its safety credential, it has no choice and even an urgent obligation to deliver the best ADAS in the world that will prevent accident caused by the human or autopilot driver. Staying in the lane most of the time is the easiest part, reacting well to edge cases with minimum false negative is the huge challenge for Tesla (but no doubt talented people as Karpathy havent waited for my analysis). And first and foremost as its represent most of Tesla accidents : reliable emergency braking and avoidance of fixed objects.

Another direction of improvement would be driver monitoring via internal camera, which is clearly much superior to the actual system in term of reliability and confort (eyes on the road are better than hands on the wheel). But Tesla doesn't seems to go this direction as S and X aren't equipped.

A very simple solution Tesla should adopt that would certainly please NTHSA and NTSB would be to prevent the continuous use of autopilot, forcing 1mn of manual driving every 10 or 15mn. This way you would get most of the convenience of autopilot, without the out of loop syndrome and very regular exercise of taking back control in different situations.

As a Tesla investor and future driver, I hope they will acknowledge the situation and work hard to deliver meaningful ADAS safety improvement.
 
Tesla's Autopilot system is patently terrible if the above is true, as you say. AEB/TACC/AP cannot detect a stationary object? That would appear to be a most basic feature of "collision avoidance" systems. The fact that Teslas cannot detect stationary objects tells me that Tesla either is unwilling to write and test the proper code, or it lacks the sensor configuration needed to detect a stationary object. Either way, Tesla looks bad.

Volvos and Mercedes (possibly others) can detect stationary objects. Why can't Tesla? What's different with Tesla? Oh, right, a CEO who thinks he is exempt from delivering on customer and investor expectations...

Will you calm down? There isn't a single vehicle on the market today that can reliably detect a stationary/stopped object in the path of a car traveling at high speed and stop said car without impacting the stationary object... No, not even Volvo or Mercedes can claim such a feat...

Here's a novel idea, pay freaking attention while driving??? Can we try that for a change?

Jeff
 
If every accident (and it will not be the last) of this kind is highly commented and debated, its not only due to Tesla/self driving bashing, but because of the special situation of level 2 autosteer and Tesla communication.

The last 30 years have seen tremendous progress in term of passive and active security improvement of our cars : Airbags, ABS, ESP and now ADAS, AEB, LCA, LKA. All those system have in commun to act as a safety net for the driver, and if case exist where they can cause accident of their own (see airbags accidental deployment), they overwhelmingly reduce accident rate or consequences.

Cruise control, TACC and Autosteer are different beast as they doesn't act as a safety net but relief driver from some boring tasks. if the confort and convenience improvement is obvious as the universal adaptation by Tesla driver is showing, the security side is more controversial.

Driving with TACC and/or Autosteer actually means the car has three pilots : the autopilot which drive and take decision on its own, the human pilot monitoring and ready to take control at every moment, the ADAS safety net which can take control in extreme situation. So used wisely by an attentive driver as advised, a Tesla on Autopilot with ADAS features should be much more secure than a car without autopilot and ADAS where all the responsibility rely on the faible human driver. But at the same time, its 100% sure that this automated driving will for some people or in some circonstances lead to an out of loop phenomena and distraction, even with hands on wheel (but attention not on the road).

And what is terribly difficult to handle for Tesla is that the better the system will work, the more people will be overconfident and get distracted. Its not by chance that all accidents reported happen on separated highway where the system is supposed to be used rather than during the many bold experiments you see on video on local roads. Some people who drive on Autopilot for hours without a flaw will inevitably get distracted at some point, and you will end up with only two driver : the autopilot which is far from perfect yet and the ADAS working only on limited cases. And according to the Swiss cheese model, when none of the three driver are operational, *sugar* happens.

The situation for Tesla is quite inconfortable, especially due to their poor communication (autosteer is a convenience, not a security feature) but not desperate. If autosteer is quite unique in its current form in term of deployment and usage its part due to Tesla being clearly less risk averse than other automakers but also being the only one able thank to its OTA to release a less than secure fonction that will get better over time.

At this point, if Tesla wants to regain its safety credential, it has no choice and even an urgent obligation to deliver the best ADAS in the world that will prevent accident caused by the human or autopilot driver. Staying in the lane most of the time is the easiest part, reacting well to edge cases with minimum false negative is the huge challenge for Tesla (but no doubt talented people as Karpathy havent waited for my analysis). And first and foremost as its represent most of Tesla accidents : reliable emergency braking and avoidance of fixed objects.

Another direction of improvement would be driver monitoring via internal camera, which is clearly much superior to the actual system in term of reliability and confort (eyes on the road are better than hands on the wheel). But Tesla doesn't seems to go this direction as S and X aren't equipped.

A very simple solution Tesla should adopt that would certainly please NTHSA and NTSB would be to prevent the continuous use of autopilot, forcing 1mn of manual driving every 10 or 15mn. This way you would get most of the convenience of autopilot, without the out of loop syndrome and very regular exercise of taking back control in different situations.

As a Tesla investor and future driver, I hope they will acknowledge the situation and work hard to deliver meaningful ADAS safety improvement.

tl;dr version, Tesla should gut AP to the point of being useless simply because some drivers refuse to pay attention...

Yeah... No. It's already to nanny like as it is...

Jeff
 
  • Like
Reactions: SomeJoe7777
Will you calm down? There isn't a single vehicle on the market today that can reliably detect a stationary/stopped object in the path of a car traveling at high speed and stop said car without impacting the stationary object... No, not even Volvo or Mercedes can claim such a feat...

Here's a novel idea, pay freaking attention while driving??? Can we try that for a change?

Jeff

So the new Tesla vehicles hitting the roads aren't hardware equipped for FSD as advertised and sold?
Will Lidar detect the object and stop?
 
Volvos and Mercedes (possibly others) can detect stationary objects. Why can't Tesla?

You’re conflating things. Volvo’s and Mercedes (possibly others) can *sometimes* detect stationary objects. And Tesla’s *sometimes* can’t detect stationary objects.

But those two are not mutually exclusive. Tesla’s can also detect stationary objects(I’ve seen this numerous times with mine, first hand). And Volvos and Mercedes can also fail to detect stationary objects(there’s video evidence of that earlier in this very thread, I believe).
 
So the new Tesla vehicles hitting the roads aren't hardware equipped for FSD as advertised and sold?
Will Lidar detect the object and stop?

What? Talk about taking a post out of context and then putting words into someones mouth...

I never said it couldn't be done, I said "There isn't a single vehicle on the market today that can reliably detect a stationary/stopped object in the path of a car traveling at high speed and stop said car without impacting the stationary object..."

Nowhere in that statement did I say that the technology doesn't exist to do it or won't exist to do it in the future, and that includes Tesla. I never made any statement about the FSD hardware, lidar, or anything else for that matter...

Come on...

Jeff
 
What? Talk about taking a post out of context and then putting words into someones mouth...

I never said it couldn't be done, I said "There isn't a single vehicle on the market today that can reliably detect a stationary/stopped object in the path of a car traveling at high speed and stop said car without impacting the stationary object..."

Nowhere in that statement did I say that the technology doesn't exist to do it or won't exist to do it in the future, and that includes Tesla. I never made any statement about the FSD hardware, lidar, or anything else for that matter...

Come on...

Jeff

I simply asked two questions. Note the question marks at the end of the sentences.
 
I agree with you wholeheartedly. It was one of the first test cases I tried when getting myself familiar with AP/TACC.

However, cases like these along with the subsequent discussions have proven time and time again that too many people do not realize this. I think Tesla needs to do a better job communicating this limitation. Not just in the manual, but every salesperson demonstrating the feature should mention it. Every delivery specialist turning over a vehicle with AP/TACC should go through a spiel that includes this information.

So this disclaimer (early 2017) which one must acknowledge when turning AS on is not enough? Is it too long or too complicated to comprehend?

Screen Shot 2018-05-14 at 1.02.34 PM.jpg
 
No. And no.

For the 957,000th time, Autopilot/TACC does not detect stopped vehicles that were stopped before they came into radar range.

It never has done this since the day AP was released, still doesn't, and won't for some time.

Anyone saying contrary is wrong, and doesn't have enough experience with AP to know.

Hmmm... I don't agree with this, although I may be misunderstanding what you are saying. I am on autopilot 90% of the time and I encounter situations where my MS stops for stationary vehicles all the time. Sometimes I take over to be more efficient but that is the only reason. The car stops on its own if it encounters vehicles stopped in its lane. Like when you are approaching cars stopped at a traffic light or crest a hill and there is a car that just popped into view. I have noticed that certain unusual vehicle shapes are recognized noticeably later, though. Such as landscaping trailers, Brinks trucks...
 
For the 957,000th time, Autopilot/TACC does not detect stopped vehicles that were stopped before they came into radar range.

Tesla's Autopilot system is patently terrible if the above is true, as you say. AEB/TACC/AP cannot detect a stationary object? That would appear to be a most basic feature of "collision avoidance" systems. The fact that Teslas cannot detect stationary objects tells me that Tesla either is unwilling to write and test the proper code, or it lacks the sensor configuration needed to detect a stationary object. Either way, Tesla looks bad.

Volvos and Mercedes (possibly others) can detect stationary objects. Why can't Tesla? What's different with Tesla? Oh, right, a CEO who thinks he is exempt from delivering on customer and investor expectations...

He didn't say AEB. He said TACC.

AEB has no problem seeing stopped objects. But it's not designed to prevent a collision. It's only designed to reduce the speed before impact by 25 mph.

If you are doing 30 mph and the object continues to move forward AEB might prevent the collision just by trying to reduce the speed of a predicted collision or you might hit them at 5 mph if they stay still.

If you are doing 60 mph AEB can slow the car to 35 mph and then the driver has to make a decision.
 
Hmmm... I don't agree with this, although I may be misunderstanding what you are saying. I am on autopilot 90% of the time and I encounter situations where my MS stops for stationary vehicles all the time. Sometimes I take over to be more efficient but that is the only reason. The car stops on its own if it encounters vehicles stopped in its lane. Like when you are approaching cars stopped at a traffic light or crest a hill and there is a car that just popped into view. I have noticed that certain unusual vehicle shapes are recognized noticeably later, though. Such as landscaping trailers, Brinks trucks...
My Experience on Surface Streets:
1. Prior to 2018.10.4 it would FAIL > 90% of the time while traveling > 30mph (not sure about < 30mph).
2. After 2018.10.4 it will FAIL < 5% of the time while traveling < 45mph (not sure about > 45mph).
 
  • Informative
Reactions: EinSV
Hmmm... I don't agree with this, although I may be misunderstanding what you are saying. I am on autopilot 90% of the time and I encounter situations where my MS stops for stationary vehicles all the time. Sometimes I take over to be more efficient but that is the only reason. The car stops on its own if it encounters vehicles stopped in its lane. Like when you are approaching cars stopped at a traffic light or crest a hill and there is a car that just popped into view. I have noticed that certain unusual vehicle shapes are recognized noticeably later, though. Such as landscaping trailers, Brinks trucks...

As another 'corner case', I have noticed that silver/white stationary cars are often not detected until really late at night. Overall I'd say the MS detected totally stationary traffic it was NOT tracking more than 50% of the time and less than 80% ...

But as Autopilot is a driver assist program only, this really isn't an issue.

Of course medical emergencies do happen the Tesla drivers too - who knows, heart-attack and foot hard down (or indeed the famous accel instead of brake trick) - who knows, let's see what the NTSB find out.