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Powerwall 2: Installation

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I spoke with a Tesla/SolarCity "concierge" this afternoon, as they finally returned my earlier calls. (Now they are calling themselves "Tesla"; "SolarCity" was never mentioned.) This time, the representative seemed very knowledgeable, and he was willing to answer any questions I had. While I ended up telling him that I'm going with a third party installer, I wanted to learn more about their process, etc.

The representative confirmed a key piece of information - that no more than 20% of the total pool of SGIP funds ($25m) may be awarded through any single installer. As there has been a great deal of interest in this program, he admitted that there is a very real chance that some of Tesla's Powerwall customers in California will not be able to receive any rebate funds at all. Also, Tesla isn't processing any additional applications for Tier 1, the maximum ~$0.50/Wh rebate, so if I were moving forward with Tesla, I'd either receive a Tier 2 rebate or none at all.

I also asked about Tesla's $7000 estimate to purchase and install a single Powerwall 2. I explained that my main panel has already been upgraded and that my overall setup is pretty standard. Based on that, the representative seemed quite confident that the final price would indeed be very close to $7000 (subject of course to the findings of their design team, who could end up recommending a second Powerwall).

Comparing Tesla and LA Solar Group as installers for a California customer entering the market right now who is willing to apply for SGIP and is eligible for the 30% ITC, the tradeoff is that with Tesla, it appears that you would either get a Powerwall for almost nothing (possibly under $1000) or end up paying about $4900 (ITC but no SGIP). With LA Solar Group, if one contacts them immediately, there's a chance of a Tier 1 rebate and, it appears, a net price of about $2400. With a Tier 3 rebate, the worst case on the LASG contract, the net price would be closer to $4500. Tier 2 would be in the middle, about $3500 I think. The 20% cap isn't an issue for LASG at this time.

Right now, it may be sort of a toss-up. As more people apply and the 20% cap on SGIP funds is exceeded for Tesla as an installer, going with LASG would probably be smarter, at least until Tiers 2 and 3 are exhausted at which point Tesla becomes cheaper again. Personally, since I already signed the LASG contract and I like their service, I'll stick with that. Plus, they installed our PV and are already familiar with our setup. If the SGIP application falls through for some reason, though, then I may decide to go with Tesla and pay $4900 net.

Finally, I asked whether I should keep my Powerwall 2 reservation even though I'm planning to use LASG and not Tesla as the installer. They are still trying to figure out how this will work, and recommended that I keep the reservation. I figure there's no harm in doing so, at least for the time being.

One more thing - Tesla says that if they were to be our installer, they'd have to come to our home for a site survey. The representative said that sending photos would not do it. (Funny that I have a Tesla Ranger coming here in a couple of days for a door handle on our Model S, but they are in a totally different arm of what's now a fairly large company.)
 
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Pretty interesting that they require a site survey. When I got a call from SolarCity the lady said I could either take pictures per her instruction or have an onsite survey. @Poiuy09 used the former option and I used the latter. I wasn't home at the time and the site survey could be scheduled in 3 days so I just told her to send someone out. He was very professional, wearing this orange suite and face guard when opening the main electrical panel to take pictures. Kind of overkill but still professional nonetheless.
 
I was told (by Tesla) that since SolarCity/Tesla doesn't have a presence in my state that I would have to take photos and send them in once they call about my installation. I haven't received that call yet.

My next "pester them every two weeks" call will be next Monday.
 
The site surveys are more for the permits and installation per code. In my instance, where I would have liked the Powerwalls, there was not enough setback per code to install them there and Tesla ended up having to mount them elsewhere to meet code.
 
Unfortunately, I don't know what the code is here. I have an oak tree and a shed a few feet away. I think it was the oak tree that was the problem, it is within a couple feet of my house right where I thought the batteries would be placed. When Tesla came out with the design, I thought they had made a mistake, but when I contacted them, they said that code would not allow the batteries to be placed where I originally wanted.
 
I'm was also skeptical about needing to upgrade our 200A Main Service Panel ("MSP") but because of the number of circuits and multiple loads on our existing 3,300 sq. ft. 2007 new construction 2-story single family home's 200A MSP and 100A subpanel we've ALREADY had to:

1. Load Calc (attached)
2. repurpose our unused 240V electric dryer circuit
3. double up every available breaker

... just to install our Tesla High Power Wall Charger (100A breaker / 80A max.)

This was verified by 3 electricians for our Tesla HPWC installation and subsequently SCE + 3 solar company quotes last year. SCE even suggested we may just want to upgrade to a 400A panel since they'll provide the additional 200A wiring at no charge... and 400A would provide plenty of future capacity for adding another EV, additional solar, another garage, etc.

The reason our 200A MSP is completely full is because the original tract home contractor only installed a cheap 200A MSP with very few breaker slots. Even before we added our Tesla, RV, and outdoor kitchen the original builder had to add a 100A subpanel just to feed the original circuits.

Obviously I'll take another look at this hard if we add solar and Powerwall(s) but please trust me that I've gone over this several times and concluded we need a MSP upgrade if we add solar... especially since we'll get a 30% tax credit and need more breakers anyway. Plus in the "big picture" the cost of upgrading our MSP to provide more amperage and breakers is incremental when adding 7kW solar.
The load calculation is to calculate when you have all the appliances and devices on at the same time what size electrical panels do you need. In your load calculation, they used the sub-panel 100A as a large appliance, which is not the case, also I saw 2 Ac units of 5 tons each. Your main electrical panel is a Square D 20 circuits 40 spaces, the largest one available is 30-42. Not all the breakers spot you can use double breakers ( twins). The 400A main panel is surface mount and yours is semi flush. You can make more room inside the main panel by installing a sub panel and relocating as many circuits you want. Usually, for new homes as your size is suggested to install the main panel and 2 sub-panels and in all 3 you will have 20% space for future updates.
 
LA Solar Group quoted me at $10,575 for a single Powerwall, after some back and forth using Pick My Solar as an intermediary/broker. That's without a critical loads subpanel, so the whole house will be backed up (for better and for worse).

I still think that's high, but SolarCity hasn't even bothered to try scheduling a site visit, and the SGIP application date is only days away. Plus, with LASG, I have the option of backing out if we don't get a large enough SGIP rebate.

Honestly, with NEM 1.0 for solar in California, and without the government incentives for batteries, I wouldn't be installing a Powerwall just yet - I'd be waiting for the costs to drop further. At a net cost of roughly $2400 (using LASG) if we end up with the full SGIP rebate, though, it's cheap enough to be worth doing just for backup purposes, and the fact that we'll be able to do TOU load shifting is a bonus.

LASG may be including a new inverter ot a voltage regulating device that allows the panels to function when grid power is down
 
The load calculation is to calculate when you have all the appliances and devices on at the same time what size electrical panels do you need. In your load calculation, they used the sub-panel 100A as a large appliance, which is not the case, also I saw 2 Ac units of 5 tons each. Your main electrical panel is a Square D 20 circuits 40 spaces, the largest one available is 30-42. Not all the breakers spot you can use double breakers ( twins). The 400A main panel is surface mount and yours is semi flush. You can make more room inside the main panel by installing a sub panel and relocating as many circuits you want. Usually, for new homes as your size is suggested to install the main panel and 2 sub-panels and in all 3 you will have 20% space for future updates.

Great information! Thanks!

Admittedly my electrical engineering knowledge is marginal, but wouldn't our existing Tesla High Power Wall Charger set to 80A max. current installed on a 100A breaker in our existing 100A subpanel classify this subpanel as a "large appliance?

Two solar installers quoting a 6.7kWh solar system in Feb 2016 said we'd need to upgrade our 200A main service panel to a Square D Homeline 225 Amp 30-Space 42-Circuit Outdoor Solar-Ready Combination Meter Socket and Main Breaker Load Center for Plug-on Neutral breakers Model # SC3042M225PF Square D Homeline 225 Amp 30 Space 42 Circuit Outdoor Surface Mount Main Breaker Plug-On Neutral CSED-SC3042M225PF - The Home Depot and Square D solar ready sub-feed lug kit SR69064A for solar connection ahead of the main breaker http://download.schneider-electric.com/files?p_File_Id=682103646&p_File_Name=73295-553-01.pdf Schneider Electric (Square D) Technical Support also recommended this as part of our main service panel (“MSP”) upgrade.

When we add solar we want to upgrade our electrical to provide for:
  1. a 6.2kWh solar system
  2. a couple of spare circuits for future electrical additions (additional garage, whole house fan, etc.)
  3. 2 Tesla Powerwall 2's configured to power our entire home except our AC units (two 5-ton central + two split systems) so we can still power our home during an emergency (think The Big One earthquake or grid outage) using solar + Powerwalls.
Can all this be done using our existing 200A main service panel + an additional 100A subpanel? Or better to upgrade to a 225A "solar ready" main service panel?

Thanks again for everybody's expertise. These forums have been priceless!
 
Maybe this has been discussed before, wondering if I have room on my 200 amp panel for a powerwall. I think I'm maxed out with my 6.5 kW solar and does it require a special inverter in addition to my existing units.
My understanding is that when you install an AC PowerWall with backup capability, you will need to add another panel and transfer switch. So, your main panel will probably only have high draw loads that are not backed up and everything else will move to the new "critical loads" panel. The AC PowerWall has the inverter built-in so it can inter-operate with whatever solar you already have. In the end you will have a lot more open slots because of the new panel and you won't be putting any additional load on the service line.
 
My understanding is that when you install an AC PowerWall with backup capability, you will need to add another panel and transfer switch. So, your main panel will probably only have high draw loads that are not backed up and everything else will move to the new "critical loads" panel. The AC PowerWall has the inverter built-in so it can inter-operate with whatever solar you already have. In the end you will have a lot more open slots because of the new panel and you won't be putting any additional load on the service line.
Thanks for the info, that sounds like it would work quite well.
 
Still waiting for design which was supposed to take 1 to 2 weeks after the survey (FWIW I did a self survey, provided them photos). That was a little over 2 weeks ago. I'm told that they don't have any questions or issues. It sounds like the expectation is that round 1 SGIP will be oversubscribed so it will go to lottery. I'm just trying to get Tesla to at least give me a chance at the round 1 incentives.

arnold
 
So has anyone actually RECEIVED a PW2? We're building NEW construction and should be ready in 4-5 weeks. My solar provider tells me Tesla hasn't confirmed anything with him and he's now trying to get me to look at Sonnen. I reached out to another Solar vendor I had communication with and he's now telling me that the PW2 can't handle loads over 15A and recommending I look at Sonnen as well.

This is SO frustrating!!!!!
 
So has anyone actually RECEIVED a PW2? We're building NEW construction and should be ready in 4-5 weeks. My solar provider tells me Tesla hasn't confirmed anything with him and he's now trying to get me to look at Sonnen. I reached out to another Solar vendor I had communication with and he's now telling me that the PW2 can't handle loads over 15A and recommending I look at Sonnen as well.

This is SO frustrating!!!!!
That seems wrong. According to Tesla Powerwall it offers 5kW continuous for one PowerWall 2. On a 240-250 volt (AC) circuit, that is 20.83-20 amps, so a 20 amp breaker seems appropriate, but since it has two legs, it requires a double pole breaker (each pole 20 amps). On a 120-125 volt (AC) circuit, that would be 41.6-40 amps, but I bet that is divided among two poles, so 20 amps each 120 volt (to neutral) pole. Probably a single PowerWall 2 is installed with a backfed two pole 20 amp each pole breaker crossing both legs of the 240 volt service. Double the PowerWalls, double the amps served, so 40 amps each 120 volt pole. You did not say what kinds of loads you would be handling, such as the volts. If, for instance, you needed to power a dishwasher of 3600 watts, if it is fed by a 240 volt circuit, that would be 15 amps, and if a 120 volt circuit, that would be 30 amps. If you needed to power an electric oven of 2000 watts, then that would be fed by a 240 volt circuit, and only need a 10 amp circuit breaker; probably, the oven is rated for slightly more and requires a slightly larger breaker, but the wire sizes needed wouldn't be that great. If you were powering an electric furnace in a warm climate with 7941 watts, that would require two PowerWalls, would be 240 volts, and would require a 40 amp breaker and larger wires. You would also have to find out if you are using heat pumps and heat exchangers for fresh air; they have different power requirements and operating ranges.

In other words, the person you spoke to is wrong. They didn't even mention the spec that is required: watts. He only mentioned amps. I suspect they are lying because they're steering you to another product. Although that other product may or may not be good, I personally wouldn't like to work with someone who doesn't say "I don't know" and prefers to just lie to me. Maybe their method of installing it is different and would require different constraints.

Anybody that enters a discussion without knowing the following equation doesn't stand a chance to understand this stuff:

Watts = Volts * Amps
  • Watts is power
  • Amps is current
  • Volts is potential (but I don't feel it necessary to memorize that, since most equipment already comes with a nameplate rating telling you what volts it needs, and you already know the house is 240 volts service with two 120 volt legs with respect to neutral).
That is not discussing the time component. If you put in a time component, then that is energy aka work (such as Joules). For example, a single PowerWall 2 provides 13.5kWh, meaning 13,500 watts (continuously) for an hour (which it cannot provide entirely in one hour, since it is only rated 5,000 watts). It can be calculated, so if you are using the maximum wattage of a single PowerWall 2 (5,000 watts = 5kW), it will give you electricity for 2 hours and 42 minutes. If you use 562.5 watts continuously, that will last 24 hours.

If I made errors, feel free to correct me.
 
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So has anyone actually RECEIVED a PW2? We're building NEW construction and should be ready in 4-5 weeks. My solar provider tells me Tesla hasn't confirmed anything with him and he's now trying to get me to look at Sonnen. I reached out to another Solar vendor I had communication with and he's now telling me that the PW2 can't handle loads over 15A and recommending I look at Sonnen as well.

This is SO frustrating!!!!!

I agree. I'm getting incredibly frustrated over the powerwall 2. If you end up looking into the Sonnen product, please share pricing info.
 
Sure...this is what I got from the vendor stating that PowerWall2 can only support 15A circuits...

He didn't state if this was installed or not...I'm still waiting to hear back from my original vendor on Tuesday (tomorrow):

Eco 6 - $15,060
Eco 8 - $17,460
Eco 10 - $20,820
Eco 12 - $23,220
 
LOL...always an ass around. No, I LOOKED. But is that seriously the ONLY person who has been able to get one installed since the statement released by Tesla indicating they were shipping in March?

So only ONE (1) has been received since March...in 2 months?

I was looking to see if there was MORE than one...is that better for you?

Point is, I heard getting the original battery was like seeing a magical unicorn. While I *love* what Tesla is doing, I'm building a house that is 80% complete...I can't wait forever for them to get their stuff together. They're either actually shipping these things in QUANTITIY, or I'll have to look elsewhere, much to my dismay.
 
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