PowerWall and "The Missing Piece..." Event

[jgs]

Tesla is planning to move down the market for Model 3 and Gen 4 and sell in much higher volume at lower prices.

Imagine that the Supercharger is located near a relatively cheap food place. You park at the Supercharger, and while you charge your car you go inside and eat. You get something like a sandwich that costs close to or less than $10.60 while your car charges. You go home and you have no cooking, no dishes, no cleaning to do (which also saves you some peak-time electricity use).

I do think he has a point.

He does, but is there any compelling reason to think fixing the problem contractually ("you may not do that, and if you do we'll turn off your supercharging") wouldn't be an adequate fix?

(Also keep in mind that "down market" still means people who are currently driving things like BMW 3-series. Minimum wage still is not likely to be all that attractive.)

 

[yoyo]

The price of 3000$ for 7Kwh is pretty cheap, especially for a fully integrated system.
looking at this for comparison: Batteries, Lithium We found 8 products

It is unclear what additional equipment is required for a home owner. It says AC-DC inverter is not included - does it mean that the charger (grid power to charge the battery) is required? - but the DC-AC inverter (required to convert battery power to 120v AC) is part of the system?
If the charger is not included, does it mean you have to charge from Solar panels (and must have enough in the series go over 350v DC?) - then it would not be a backup system anymore.
Wouldn't the Tesla HWPC be perfect for the AC-DC charger - as it outputs at the same DC range?

want more details and want to know which states are covered in the roll-out.

It sures beats the lead acid battery - cost over 1200$ for a 9KWh battery (4 of 6v 395A - weigh over 500lb) -- but less than 4KWh is really usable as you do not want to discharge under 50% - and having to keep refilling distilled water is hassle, and lasts about 4 to 5 years max and shorter with daily charge/discharge...

 

[Ampster]

Still not clear....

Are there tax incentives with this?

The federal 30% tax credit may apply if the batteries are charged by a PV system. Some dual use rules apply which preclude getting the credit and using using this for many peak shaving schemes.

NB
There is a more robust discussion of the tax credit on this thread:
Tesla Stationary Storage Investors Thread

 

[jgs]

Wouldn't the Tesla HWPC be perfect for the AC-DC charger - as it outputs at the same DC range?

HPWC outputs AC. The AC-DC electronics are inside the car, that's why you have to pick whether you're going to build it with single or dual chargers.

 

[mspohr]

While I guess this will make sense for people with high electricity prices where solar power makes sense (I pay 11 cents per kwh and live in sweden so...) there is one thing I don't get.
Max continous output is 2 kw? That's kind of low isn't it? Not enough to even boil some water?
Even if it would make sense to get these, just for it to equal my current feed into my house I would need nine of them connected 3 per phase? And I have a pretty standard 3*25A feed (240V phase-neutral).

My average use is 500w. Only goes above 1000w when hot tub or car charging kicks in. 2000w is plenty.

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Hopefully never, because their would instantly be a bunch of A-holes that would use Superchargers to charge their cars, so they can drive home and power their house with their car....

Full charge of car is about $7 and takes an hour. I can do better at a fast food restaurant.

 

[uselesslogin]

You're assuming no discount rate in money, but also the one thing you forget is the backup generator portion of it. Buying this battery + inverter + solar easily over comes the cost of a back up generator.

If you want backup and daily cycling it sounds like you are buying 2 batteries. We'll have to wait to hear more but the website makes it sound that way.

• Models
• 10 kWh $3,500
• For backup applications
• 7 kWh $3,000
• ​For daily cycle applications

 

[Skotty]

Let me apologize in advance, as I'm about to insult pretty much everybody, although hopefully my satirical presentation won't cause any enduring hard feelings.

While on one hand a home battery system (and also a utility grade system) might seem a little mundane, on the other it is brilliant and precisely what the world needs right now. There are two large camps of wrong people that make up the majority of all people on Earth (or at least, in the USA): the conservative climate change deniers and the hippy green Earth crazies. How do you solve the real problem of climate change when you have to cater to these two groups? Musk is the one person on Earth who might actually be able to do it.

The Conservative Climate Change Deniers

These folks either think climate change isn't real or are so obsessed with their own pocket books and short term ROI that they are completely blind to saving anything other than money. These are the people who would die in a fiery pit of doom because the road that led there had a lower toll.

Musk and company are catering to this group by providing really nice packaging and actually making it affordable. It's actually not quite affordable enough yet, but Musk and company are working on that, and the prices should drop in time thanks to the gigafactory. In time, it can finally reach the point where the financial value is good enough that it even overcomes this groups demonic desire to oppose doing anything that might serve the climate change cause.

Hippy Green Earth Crazies

These folks believe in decentralized everything and stand in curious opposition to nuclear power despite overwhelming scientific evidence that nuclear power is good after having accepted overwhelming scientific evidence that climate change is bad. The more extreme among them think we all need to trade cows for tofu and kale, live in huts made of hemp, and generally give up all the modern day progress that has been achieved in the last hundred years or so.

Musk and company are catering to this group by solving the problem to renewable intermittency to the degree that renewables actually CAN power the planet without the help of nuclear power. Thank goodness, no longer will this group have to struggle so hard trying to match up energy consumption curves with typical renewable power output, while the rest of us will be spared the pain of watching them try. Musk and company are providing a real solution where this nonsense is no longer necessary.

In Closing

Eureka! Houston, we have a solution. Thank you Musk and company for being the only humans on Earth with the determination and insight to start making affordable bullet proof shoes so all the people out there shooting themselves in the foot every day might actually be saved. Lets hope that enough people will buy.

 

[aznt1217]

If you want backup and daily cycling it sounds like you are buying 2 batteries. We'll have to wait to hear more but the website makes it sound that way.

• Models
• 10 kWh $3,500
• For backup applications
• 7 kWh $3,000
• ​For daily cycle applications

I agree we'll have to wait but it'll come down to the app. I don't think you need to daisy chain them but I think you can allocate a specific amount in each pack for what purpose you want it to serve from the way it sounds. I just bring up the back up generator as a selling point because that easily makes the price worth it for those complaining it's too expensive.

 

[Matias]

I just bring up the back up generator as a selling point because that easily makes the price worth it for those complaining it's too expensive.

If you need backup generation.

I don't need and my peak vs non peak difference is about 5 cents/kwh. So the pack would never pay itself back (if we think that it will last maximum 20 years).

 

[aznt1217]

If you need backup generation.

I don't need and my peak vs non peak difference is about 5 cents/kwh. So the pack would never pay itself back.

Can you elaborate on that? I'm pretty sure backup generation is a good thing in any way shape or form. I only speak from my experience but when Hurricane Sandy hit here, a lot of people could have used a non gas generator.

 

[Merrill]

Ok, need someone who has an electrical background to explain to me how this powerwall works. I have solar, so what does an electrician need to do to hook this unit up and how does it interface with the inverter and the electrical panel. I'm on a tou system, so if I want to store electricity in the battery for use at night do I lose the net metering on peak times that PG&E pays me because it now is being stored in the battery.

 

[beeeerock]

Eureka! Houston, we have a solution. Thank you Musk and company for being the only humans on Earth with the determination and insight to start making affordable bullet proof shoes so all the people out there shooting themselves in the foot every day might actually be saved. Lets hope that enough people will buy.

Perfect summary of the reality of our situation!! :biggrin:

I agree that this might be the start of an actual solution to the problem, on a time scale that might even be fast enough. We can hope.

What struck me during the opening of the presentation and the discussion of the sun was something that should always have been obvious...:

"Why are we spending so much money in the quest for a clean fusion reactor or other magical energy source? The biggest power source one we could ever hope for already exists and we don't have to pay *anything* to use it!!!"

Jump to solar panels and lithium ion batteries... how simple are they, really? Made of... wait... silicon, carbon, lithium... head rush... those are elements we actually have a decent supply of on the planet! How convenient is that???

 

[wayner]

I don't know if anyone has covered this yet in this thread but I have no incentive to store energy at home if I have a residential solar system in the province of Ontario. If I put up panels I can sell the power into the grid at a guaranteed price of $0.384 for twenty years for a max 10kW system. That is about 2X the highest price that I pay for electricty (we have time of use pricing in Toronto). Therefore there is no reason for me to store power as I get the same rate no matter when I sell the power back into the grid.

 

[Matias]

Can you elaborate on that? I'm pretty sure backup generation is a good thing in any way shape or form. I only speak from my experience but when Hurricane Sandy hit here, a lot of people could have used a non gas generator.

Grid is pretty reliable where I live. Of course, if it is not, that is a different situation.

 

[aznt1217]

I don't know if anyone has covered this yet in this thread but I have no incentive to store energy at home if I have a residential solar system in the province of Ontario. If I put up panels I can sell the power into the grid at a guaranteed price of $0.384 for twenty years for a max 10kW system. That is about 2X the highest price that I pay for electricty (we have time of use pricing in Toronto). Therefore there is no reason for me to store power as I get the same rate no matter when I sell the power back into the grid.

Understood that's all well and good. Aside from the scenario I described with back ups. The energy you sell back might be excess for the utility so if they aren't selling a battery to you, it'll be sold on the back end. You aren't the vast majority of people and in the US at least there are laws restricting this practice so it gets a little more complex.

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Grid is pretty reliable where I live. Of course, if it is not, that is a different situation.

Understood. Never been to finland before, but in the event of a disaster or inclement weather which we get here in my part of the states it's crucial. I also firmly believe in the whole "prepare for the worst, expect the best scenario." During Sandy, I know a bunch of guys on my aquarium hobby forums who lost $30K worth of livestock because of an extended period of no power.

For Tesla this isn't even a profitability play, it's a maintain the world's existence so that there can be a business and so that we can exist play.

For Elon it's a buy me more time to get to mars play.

 

[wayner]

Grid is pretty reliable where I live. Of course, if it is not, that is a different situation.

Are your electricity distribution lines above ground or buried? If they are above ground then wouldn't the be susceptible to ice storms?

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Understood that's all well and good. Aside from the scenario I described with back ups. The energy you sell back might be excess for the utility so if they aren't selling a battery to you, it'll be sold on the back end. You aren't the vast majority of people and in the US at least there are laws restricting this practice so it gets a little more complex.

Understood - I was just pointing out that where I live there is actually a government induced disincentive to store renewable energy, at least for households. But our electricity generation, transmission and distribution is mainly government owned, although that is changing.

 

[Matias]

Are your electricity distribution lines above ground or buried? If they are above ground then wouldn't the be susceptible to ice storms?

in urban areas they are buried. In many parts of the country they are not, and in those areas there indeed are power outages during winter storms. But where I live, I have never experienced power outages more than a few minutes and less than once a year.

 

[beeeerock]

I don't know if anyone has covered this yet in this thread but I have no incentive to store energy at home if I have a residential solar system in the province of Ontario. If I put up panels I can sell the power into the grid at a guaranteed price of $0.384 for twenty years for a max 10kW system. That is about 2X the highest price that I pay for electricty (we have time of use pricing in Toronto). Therefore there is no reason for me to store power as I get the same rate no matter when I sell the power back into the grid.

In all fairness, your situation in Ontario is pretty unique (and pretty sweet I might add!). Once the coal plants are gone, I don't think they'll be allowing any new users to take advantage of the 20 year deal!

 

[brianman]

Ontario... I can sell the power into the grid at a guaranteed price of $0.384 for twenty years for a max 10kW system. That is about 2X the highest price that I pay for electricity

Wow.

 

[wayner]

In all fairness, your situation in Ontario is pretty unique (and pretty sweet I might add!). Once the coal plants are gone, I don't think they'll be allowing any new users to take advantage of the 20 year deal!

They are moving this program, called Microfit, to a net metering program but I am pretty sure that our coal plants have already been shut down.