PowerWall and "The Missing Piece..." Event

[ecarfan]

Looking for a video from event, no chance to find it.. lost 30min.. no luck. :/

A quick YouTube search finds this http://.be/ZVjW9XdPlhg

 

[RDoc]

You're assuming no discount rate in money, but also the one thing you forget is the backup generator portion of it. Buying this battery + inverter + solar easily over comes the cost of a back up generator.

A simple Google search pulls these standby generator prices up.

But compared to the 5-10 Powerwalls you'd need for that much draw, the generators are quite inexpensive.

 

[jgs]

I don't know if anyone has covered this yet in this thread but I have no incentive to store energy at home if I have a residential solar system in the province of Ontario. If I put up panels I can sell the power into the grid at a guaranteed price of $0.384 for twenty years for a max 10kW system. That is about 2X the highest price that I pay for electricty (we have time of use pricing in Toronto). Therefore there is no reason for me to store power as I get the same rate no matter when I sell the power back into the grid.

That's pretty much my take too -- whether the product is attractive or not depends entirely on the tariff you get from your utility. With a sufficiently attractive tariff, the only reason you might buy the battery is as a whole-house UPS. Here in Michigan/DTE the tariff is not as attractive as yours, but still pretty good -- we buy at retail, sell to the grid at retail. Right now, I don't see much motive for us to buy batteries. Of course, the utilities are pressing hard to eliminate or dial down net metering. The interesting thing about these battery systems is they put some economic power in the hands of the customer -- if you dial down net metering too far, I'll just stop selling you the power I generate, I'll keep it on-site instead. Ultimately, the battery vendors are in competition with the utilities for the utility customer's dollar, albeit with two very different products.

Whee! Let the market decide! Interesting times.

 

[rolosrevenge]

So much to read, I didn't see it all, but I'm wondering if anybody brought up the real win for Tesla here. It isn't the home batteries, it's the commercial batteries. And why? Because Tesla can start second life applications for replaced Model S packs, significantly reducing the price of energy storage.

 

[sandpiper]

In all fairness, your situation in Ontario is pretty unique (and pretty sweet I might add!). Once the coal plants are gone, I don't think they'll be allowing any new users to take advantage of the 20 year deal!

You've got that right. We've got a pretty "unique" government in power right now that seems utterly determined to destroy what industry hasn't already fled for greener pastures.

 

[jacobp]

if your utility buys your overgeneration at retail rates, they ARE your battery and you don't need this. For the rest of us, this makes solar interesting for the first time.

That's what i was thinking as well. I have a 10.8kW solar system. My utility has time-of-use charging and net metering. As i generate solar power, that generation is first netted out against what i use on a time of use basis. In other words, if i generate 10kwh of solar energy during on-peak hours, that amount is then applied to what i use during on-peak hours. If i generate more than what i use, i am then given a credit for on-peak for future months (I've always wondered if that how other utilities work with solar?). So i cannot apply on-peak credits against off-peak usage. In other words, the utility "buys back" my on-peak overgeneration and then I buy it back at the same rate since i can only use the overgeneration credits during same billing time period. So, i have alot of credits for energy generated during the summer. What i found is that those credits are fairly quickly used up during the winter months when solar generation is significantly reduced.

In addition, while i time-of-use billing from PEPCO, the differences in rates do not seem very significant. Given all that, and the fact that i am not interested in have a backup for power loss, does Powerwall make sense for me?

 

[mspohr]

I don't know if anyone has covered this yet in this thread but I have no incentive to store energy at home if I have a residential solar system in the province of Ontario. If I put up panels I can sell the power into the grid at a guaranteed price of $0.384 for twenty years for a max 10kW system. That is about 2X the highest price that I pay for electricty (we have time of use pricing in Toronto). Therefore there is no reason for me to store power as I get the same rate no matter when I sell the power back into the grid.

This is not for you.

 

[yesla]

What did EM say about solar in space? I imagined solar panels collecting energy in orbit around earth and maybe the moon. Generating enough power to actual sustain a base in the moon for refueling.

 

[jacobp]

It likely includes a small inverter AC to DC to charge the battery from the grid slowly, but if you need to take power out of it then you need an appropriately sized DC to AC inverter to power your home in an outage. At least that's what I'm getting out of it after the live presentation and reading the Teslaenergy info provided which is not much!

My solar system uses Solar Edge inverters. I just spoke with the SolarEdge rep and he said PowerWall can use the existing SolarEdge inverters (as long as there is capacity: i took this to mean that my inverters must be sized a bit bigger than my system). My solar installer, however, said that i intend to use PowerWall as a backup device, more equipment would have to be installed.

 

[aznt1217]

But compared to the 5-10 Powerwalls you'd need for that much draw, the generators are quite inexpensive.

Point of reference. My boss at my old job paid $15k for a natural gas generator that failed when they needed it most and went out of warranty so I don't really buy the generator being inexpensive. You still need to get gas for it, it takes up a crap ton of space, puts out unnecessary heat, etc. It's the ICE vs. EV except with stationary packs.

- - - Updated - - -

What did EM say about solar in space? I imagined solar panels collecting energy in orbit around earth and maybe the moon. Generating enough power to actual sustain a base in the moon for refueling.

He said it isn't necessary because the sun generates enough and that solar in space being necessary is a common misconception.

 

[ScepticMatt]

What did EM say about solar in space? I imagined solar panels collecting energy in orbit around earth and maybe the moon. Generating enough power to actual sustain a base in the moon for refueling.

Beaming energy back to earth is ridiculous, due to high losses and astronomical launch costs. Easily enough space on earth.
I don't remember him talking about powering moon bases.

 

[mibaro2]

I don't know if anyone has covered this yet in this thread but I have no incentive to store energy at home if I have a residential solar system in the province of Ontario. If I put up panels I can sell the power into the grid at a guaranteed price of $0.384 for twenty years for a max 10kW system. That is about 2X the highest price that I pay for electricty (we have time of use pricing in Toronto). Therefore there is no reason for me to store power as I get the same rate no matter when I sell the power back into the grid.

You are correct for those that have already signed that agreement. But Ontario is about to change that in the next few years.
The last update I heard about Ontario's plans to deal with solar power was to go to a net metering system (this from a solar company). Basically they would determine that you used X amount of energy, and put Y amount back to the grid. So you owe X-Y.
This would be grandfathered in so all existing contracts would be honored, but no new ones issued.

----
update : Wayner already pointed this out.

 

[dhanson865]

If you want backup and daily cycling it sounds like you are buying 2 batteries. We'll have to wait to hear more but the website makes it sound that way.

• Models
• 10 kWh $3,500
• For backup applications
• 7 kWh $3,000
• ​For daily cycle applications

No, not at all

If you want daily cycling you get the 7 kWh style and it does the cycling and the backup.

You then decide if you want one for 7 kWh or two for 14, or three for 21, and so on.

You don't have to mix the types.

 

[Duckjybe]

They are moving this program, called Microfit, to a net metering program but I am pretty sure that our coal plants have already been shut down.

Coal has been gone for a while. Apparently Ontario peak rates are going up by a couple cents while off peak will remain close to the old off peak rate. This makes net metering even more lucrative. But then what does a battery do for you other than backup power?

 

[spentan]

Did anyone who was at the event in person take photos of the different colored Powerwalls? I'd be interested to see what they look like (I'm guessing they match Model S colors?)

They do match model s colors

Pic of grey

 

[jacobp]

Solar edge optimizers run at exactly 350v.

That voltage and power range are right in the sweet spot for all modern string inverters. My hunch is that it has mc4 connectors and just plugs in between the solar inverter and the solar panels.

It probably has other options too which is what the dc converter is for. The most efficient way to do it though is straight at 350v dc.

Wires are much cheaper at that voltage as well.

This is precisely what my SolarEdge rep just told me. I have SolarEdge inverters on my 10.8kwh system and he said that Powerwall will basically be plug and play.

 

[beeeerock]

Coal has been gone for a while. Apparently Ontario peak rates are going up by a couple cents while off peak will remain close to the old off peak rate. This makes net metering even more lucrative. But then what does a battery do for you other than backup power?

Not much, admittedly. The take-away from the presentation, IMHO, is the commercial/industrial scale gear. The ability to put power to the grid during peak consumption periods is a huge gain and in reality, is a feature that could likely be incorporated into home battery systems too. The more power that can be solar-generated and stored for high demand times, the less reliance there is on fossil fuel fired generating plants. Shai Agassi actually proposed this sort of idea in his Better Place electric car vision - the cars would give back to the grid when necessary and able.

I don't think Elon Musk is looking at this as a primarily a huge business opportunity. It may well be (and likely is), but his goal is to eliminate fossil fuels from our daily energy needs. At scale, this could actually work. Whether everyone needs a battery in their garage to keep their lights on is really a minor part of the overall big picture. The big picture is a crowd-sourced solar/battery utility. The day may come when the utility companies simply provide and maintain the grid and don't really have much impact on the generating side. That's something to ponder...

 

[jeff_adams]

I agree, totally happy with the presentation. And for those saying Elon was "weird" on stage or whatever, I think he did great, made me laugh on several occasions and most importantly, he did a great job explaining the future of energy in the world and Teslas role in it.

Seems you weren't the only one impressed by his presentation.

Watch Elon Musk announce Tesla Energy in the best tech keynote Ive ever seen | The Verge

Fact is, many people actually prefer Elon's presentations to Steve Jobs. His were so "slick" that they almost didn't feel genuine. Elon seems so honest, you root for him....

 

[ggies07]

Has this article been posted yet? What do you guys think about the numbers in it? I'm sure Tesla understands what they are creating more than this person and the comment that they are doing this because of short demand is ridiculous.


http://gizmodo.com/how-teslas-powerwall-stacks-up-to-other-energy-sources-1701483130

 

[beeeerock]

Fact is, many people actually prefer Elon's presentations to Steve Jobs. His were so "slick" that they almost didn't feel genuine. Elon seems so honest, you root for him....

Agree 100%. He wasn't giving a sales pitch. It was about explaining a road map for the future. Whether we we follow it remains to be seen, but at least *someone* bothered to draw a map!!