Ah, the good days, I remember when it was easy to install ESS in garages everywhere.
Glad your location is exactly what you want, and works well. It is unfortunate that some installations today are so restricted.
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Powerwall In Garage [what are the rules around this?]
- Thread starter franksayshai
- Start date
Glad your location is exactly what you want, and works well. It is unfortunate that some installations today are so restricted.
Frankly, since I am not on the technical side of things, I still remain really (really really) confused by "all of this" around putting powerwalls in garages. It doesnt pass the "eye" or "smell" test... simply because no one is making us park our tesla VEHICLES (which all have the equivalent of between approximately 4.5 to approximately 7.5 "powerwalls") outside.
I cant understand for the life of me why, if this is a concern, we are allowed to park our EVs in our attached garage without all these considerations, or if parking the car in there is NOT a concern, why putting "less batteries than in the car" in a garage IS a concern.
I mean, other than the fact that maybe these AHJ "WANT" to order us all to "not park in your garage" but know no one would listen, and they would actually have lawsuits on their hands because people WOULD sue if told they could not park their expensive car in their attached garage?
It doesnt make any sense, and sure does not feel like anyone is trying to "protect" us from anything.
Haven't you seen the NEWS!!!
EVs catch on fire every day. Their batteries make them a menace to society. It is like putting a bomb in your garage!! And now you want to have 2 or 3 more of those explosive batteries in your garage!!! Are you trying to die!!! Think about the children!!!!
Haven't you seen the NEWS!!!
EVs catch on fire every day. Their batteries make them a menace to society. It is like putting a bomb in your garage!! And now you want to add 2 or 3 more of those explosive batteries in your garage!!! Are you trying to die!!! Think about the children!!!!
This push and pull comes from the current state of fire fighting technology, and the history of Lithium fires, more from hoverboards and similar personal mobility devices than other concerns. News articles are sensational, but as a fire fighter this new tech is an unknown and somewhat scary.
While a petroleum fire, even a very large one has more heat energy, the techniques to put it out are a known quantity. Use foam and water to smother it and stop the spread of flame. Compare that to putting out an ESS fire, which basically the battery must be dropped in a tub of water to totally extinguish.
These rules were written about 5 years ago, and in the meantime new standards are in place to ensure we don't have lithium fires from overcharged batteries. There has yet to be a single injury or fatality due to a UL 9540 listed ESS going into thermal runaway.
The garage is the place that the fire service should want them, as it already has fire separation from the rest of the house. I really don't think it is better to put them on the wood siding exterior of the house, which may be on the other side of a wall from a sleeping room. Since the ESS must be spread out so far, you naturally cannot contain them into a single area of low danger.
IMO, I think it has to do with people maximizing their ability to reach and influence when put in a position to "do good." As the idiom goes, it's often the best of intentions that cause harm; since people use the guise of good intentions to do things that really don't help (or actually harm) others.
AHJs do not have reach into the actual vehicle or how the domicile is used. So parking an EV that passes DOT rules is something an AHJ... doesn't have the A(authority) to influence when it comes to your home. But the moment the item you're doing touches the permanent fixture of the house, then all these AHJ rule-makers have a ton of potential authority.
As we've seen with that "friendly" inspector lady in Palo Alto; or some PG&E trouble-men who like to create trouble... they are well rewarded by being absolute strict constructionism busters who act under the guise of "safety" when they're really just power tripping over what their government jobs enabled. The Palo Alto lady, Rhonda, who basically blocks installs for fun is "widely regarded as among the nation’s best"*. The PG&E T-Man that blasted my solar install was described to me by his supervisor and a senior manager at PG&E as "the most knowledgeable about Greenbook and policy". He was apparently their "best T-Man".
Apparently the best AHJ employees are also the most draconian and strict. All under the guise of "safety" or "public good" to operate using the "exact definition of the rules". These people are everywhere; not just with ESS and Energy policy. The are the NIMBY folks who do irradiance measurements to determine a new multifamily dwelling will diminish public sunlight by 1% thereby rejecting a condo proposal. They're the ones who measure the decibel level of a public roadway and determine adding traffic will diminish quality of life by 1% thereby rejecting a new housing start. Imposing their blockers and slowing progress is the name of their game simply because the rules are set up to enable them to do this.
*Note: if you read that link you'll see that Rhonda once (edit) dinged an install because the disconnect lever was too high. And another time because the disconnect lever had the wrong fastener. Maybe she likes disconnects more than me?? Lolz.
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Haven't you seen the NEWS!!!
EVs catch on fire every day. Their batteries make them a menace to society. It is like putting a bomb in your garage!! And now you want to have 2 or 3 more of those explosive batteries in your garage!!! Are you trying to die!!! Think about the children!!!!
It does come across like that, yes (lol)
There was a thread in either the model 3 or Y subforum about a tesla 3/Y that caught on fire recently, and someone in that thread had the gall to say, effectively, "it doesnt happen to ICE vehicles, I never heard of that". After being shown plenty of proof that, yes this in fact does happen to ICE vehicles as well, and likely as often or more than Tesla EVs, they basically said "oh".
As I said in that thread, because it doesnt have the word TESLA in it, when these things happen to other cars, it is "local / regional" news. When its a TESLA, it all of a sudden becomes national news, with all sorts of news sites trying to generate clicks.
Back to this "powerwall in garage" thing though, it just feels like AHJs are making it harder to install these "just because". One would almost think there is collusion going on between these AHJs and the utilities. If one was named @holeydonut , one would be absolutely certain this is collusion is the case.
@holeydonut , im just teasing you a bit, but absolutely am coming around to your point of view on this, kidding aside.
I don't want to give anybody any bright ideas, but requiring ESS to be detached from the inhabited structure with a concrete or cinder block wall between the batteries and the structure with a given separation would make more sense than these garage requirements.
Here are the horn options recommended by System Sensor:
- Indoor, wall mounted: System Sensor P2RL (~$40)
- Indoor, ceiling mounted: System Sensor PC2RL (~$40)
- Outdoor, wall mounted: System Sensor P2RK (~$80)
- Ortdoor, ceiling mounted: System Sensor PC2RK (~$80)
Do you have a recommendation for a fire alarm company in the South Bay? I understand if you don't want to share on this forum and jam them up with inquiries.
So that device is just a temperature activated mechanical switch (which becomes permanently closed on activation (other than rate of rise), keep a spare on hand). And per this (unverified) site, to send regular smoke alarms into the alarm state, all you need to do is provide + (?) 9-12 VDC on the red interconnect wire, relative to the white neutral wire.
gist.github.com
That means in theory you could marry the mechanical heat sensor with regular interconnected household smoke alarms by just installing a series circuit of smoke alarm white (neutral) - 9V battery - mechanical heat sensor - smoke alarm red wire.
Home brewing that wouldn't pass any listing requirements, but if a smoke alarm manufacturer made an interconnected initiation device with a set of wet contacts, it would be easy to wire to the mechanical heat sensor. I don't imagine smoke alarm manufacturers make those, however. [Edit: that would allow the initiation device to be in a conditioned space, with just the wiring and the mechanical heat sensor in the unconditioned space.]
As a standalone system, it would be enough to have a (possibly battery backed up) power source, a horn designed for the power source, and the mechanical heat detector in series. But again there's the listing question, the power source and horn may need to be from a manufacturer who has listed them to be used in this fashion.
Cheers, Wayne
kidde-interconnect
kidde-interconnect. GitHub Gist: instantly share code, notes, and snippets.
gist.github.com
That means in theory you could marry the mechanical heat sensor with regular interconnected household smoke alarms by just installing a series circuit of smoke alarm white (neutral) - 9V battery - mechanical heat sensor - smoke alarm red wire.
Home brewing that wouldn't pass any listing requirements, but if a smoke alarm manufacturer made an interconnected initiation device with a set of wet contacts, it would be easy to wire to the mechanical heat sensor. I don't imagine smoke alarm manufacturers make those, however. [Edit: that would allow the initiation device to be in a conditioned space, with just the wiring and the mechanical heat sensor in the unconditioned space.]
As a standalone system, it would be enough to have a (possibly battery backed up) power source, a horn designed for the power source, and the mechanical heat detector in series. But again there's the listing question, the power source and horn may need to be from a manufacturer who has listed them to be used in this fashion.
Cheers, Wayne
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This is kind of going in the direction of what PG&E has been arguing; that the completely decentralized residential solar and battery systems are unsafe and inefficient. The safest in the words of PG&E would be if they built all the solar and batteries somewhere and of course made it super safe where the generation/battery fire wouldn't get ya.
Having the transmission lines catch fire and kill you is your problem. You need to give them more money for that benefit. But at least it won't be a battery fire that kills you.
I think that much of this comes from ESS being new to everyone, the firefighters, the AHJ, and the inspectors, as @Vines and @holeydonut point out.
Perhaps one might view this installation SNAFU from the perspective of being on the bleeding edge means that things are still being sorted out. So, some will get ESS stacked in a garage, others stacked outside, some with antitank bollards, others without, some with a dozen safety disconnects, while others have single ESS units 36" from doors and windows, and other ESS units, and some will have ESS units 36" apart on a cinder block wall. Eventually, there will be enough hours on various installation designs for there to be enough data to say one is preferable to another. Meanwhile, yes, it is the Wild West of installations. Personally, I am just happy to have the storage, finally.
And, yes, @miimura, due to code compliance issues, we ended up with the Powerwalls on a cinder block wall away from the house, where I anticipate that a thermal runaway event in the ESS would not spread very far. It wasn't my first choice, but I have come around to it.
All the best,
BG
Perhaps one might view this installation SNAFU from the perspective of being on the bleeding edge means that things are still being sorted out. So, some will get ESS stacked in a garage, others stacked outside, some with antitank bollards, others without, some with a dozen safety disconnects, while others have single ESS units 36" from doors and windows, and other ESS units, and some will have ESS units 36" apart on a cinder block wall. Eventually, there will be enough hours on various installation designs for there to be enough data to say one is preferable to another. Meanwhile, yes, it is the Wild West of installations. Personally, I am just happy to have the storage, finally.
And, yes, @miimura, due to code compliance issues, we ended up with the Powerwalls on a cinder block wall away from the house, where I anticipate that a thermal runaway event in the ESS would not spread very far. It wasn't my first choice, but I have come around to it.
All the best,
BG
Regarding the discussion on putting in an air conditioner unit in the garage to make it a conditioned space for purposes of the fire alarm requirement, haven't we had members here in the SFBay area run into local city building codes, and not get permitted, by putting an air conditioner in their garage — because the City then called it a living space and so not allowing PWs located there? I’m pretty sure I remember a thread or number of posts by a guy who added one in his garage (thinking he could use the space as an office what with WFH now pervasive) and ran foul doing so.
Well, in that case the guy was using it as living space. Whereas if you have an EVSE in the garage and have a car parked there during the inspection, it's pretty obviously a garage. Hopefully inspectors and plans reviewers will exhibit at least a modicum of reasonableness.
Cheers, Wayne
Having a conditioned garage does not make it a living space, so no concern there especially if you put it on the plans as such.
I wonder if the AHJ would make you hardwire it to consider it a permanent installation.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
My install just wrapped today. Turned out great. Final inspection Monday, but my AHJ has made no mention of a heat detector requirement and approved the plans/permit without one.
But I’m in a rural county that generally takes the “we’re just glad you pulled a permit in the first place” approach to permitting and inspections.
But I’m in a rural county that generally takes the “we’re just glad you pulled a permit in the first place” approach to permitting and inspections.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
The main panel / gateway / meter are directly behind the PWs on the exterior wall so it worked out well.
Riiight!!! Here's my install, it's on the side of my house by front door. Luckily, due to trees, can't dsee from street.
