Public Level 1 Charging

[gnuarm]

I often park at the long term parking at an airport. I find level 1 charging would be perfect so I could leave the car, and have it topped off when I return. Level 1 charging uses very little power, so many of them can be installed without a massive connection to the grid.

When I've tried to talk to people who would be involved in this sort of decision, they seem to have no understanding of what level 1 means, or why it would be very easy to provide.

How can this be promoted?

 

[ewoodrick]

First, stop calling it Level 1, no one know what you are talking about.

The selling point is easy, it attracts EVs to park in your lot.

We've got a few lots with chargers here in Atlanta, the one I use has inside and outside parking, but in the inside, there's a long line of 120V@20A plugs. That tends to bring the EVs into the slightly more expensive inside parking.
120V@20A is overkill, but is pretty common in commercial facilities.

Just call it a standard 120V plug like is on the wall.

 

[gnuarm]

First, stop calling it Level 1, no one know what you are talking about.

Why does no one know what level 1 charging is??? I think maybe you don't understand what it means.

The selling point is easy, it attracts EVs to park in your lot.

We've got a few lots with chargers here in Atlanta, the one I use has inside and outside parking, but in the inside, there's a long line of 120V@20A plugs. That tends to bring the EVs into the slightly more expensive inside parking.
120V@20A is overkill, but is pretty common in commercial facilities.

Just call it a standard 120V plug like is on the wall.

Uh, it can be a 120V outlet, if you are in the US. But even then, it requires an EVSE. In a parking lot, I would expect to see an EVSE provided. Lots of people don't have the cables with the EVSE in it. A level 1 EVSE looks like a level 2 EVSE, in the US it has the same J1772 connector.

SAE J1772 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[gtae07]

Why does no one know what level 1 charging is??? I think maybe you don't understand what it means.

Because most people know almost nothing about EVs other than (a) they're expensive, (b) you have to charge them and it's slower than pumping gas, and (c) some of them are really fast. Remember, you're trying to talk to people who don't know anything about EVs. Honestly I suspect most people buying EVs don't even know L1 vs L2 vs L3--they know superchargers and whatever they use at home, and maybe "I have this charger I can plug into a wall" too.

Uh, it can be a 120V outlet, if you are in the US. But even then, it requires an EVSE. In a parking lot, I would expect to see an EVSE provided. Lots of people don't have the cables with the EVSE in it. A level 1 EVSE looks like a level 2 EVSE, in the US it has the same J1772 connector.

SAE J1772 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

We know that people would still need their own charger of some kind if there were just outlets. But if you're trying to convince a business to provide these things for customers, it's going to be a whole lot cheaper up front to put in a bunch of 5-15 or 5-20 outlets than install EVSEs everywhere, and it gives you more flexibility since you can use the outlets for facilities maintenance tasks if needed. Might also be cheaper in terms of maintenance; replacing outlets as needed would be a lot faster/cheaper than having to replace damaged EVSE/cable/connector because people are careless.

 

[ewoodrick]

Why does no one know what level 1 charging is??? I think maybe you don't understand what it means.



Uh, it can be a 120V outlet, if you are in the US. But even then, it requires an EVSE. In a parking lot, I would expect to see an EVSE provided. Lots of people don't have the cables with the EVSE in it. A level 1 EVSE looks like a level 2 EVSE, in the US it has the same J1772 connector.

SAE J1772 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And hence, why evidently no one is listening to you. You are making it too hard and too expensive.

The concept that you are talking about just really isn't used that much in the US, and honestly, it's easier to install 240V charging than it is 120V charging.
But adding the cable is going to add significant cost to the solution, $100s per station. And the maintenance is going to be problematic as well, something happens to a cable and it has to be replaced.

A lot of cars carry EVSEs in them. And honestly, they are cheap enough that if you want remote charging, you should do so.


Parking lots around my airport have a solution. There's a couple with a bunch of 120V plugs. There are some with L2 solutions.
The ones with L2 solutions have maybe a dozen pedestals, the ones with 120V have DOZENS of spaces.

Install a cord and you'll probably have to pay per charge.

 

[gnuarm]

Because most people know almost nothing about EVs other than (a) they're expensive, (b) you have to charge them and it's slower than pumping gas, and (c) some of them are really fast. Remember, you're trying to talk to people who don't know anything about EVs. Honestly I suspect most people buying EVs don't even know L1 vs L2 vs L3--they know superchargers and whatever they use at home, and maybe "I have this charger I can plug into a wall" too.

We know that people would still need their own charger of some kind if there were just outlets. But if you're trying to convince a business to provide these things for customers, it's going to be a whole lot cheaper up front to put in a bunch of 5-15 or 5-20 outlets than install EVSEs everywhere, and it gives you more flexibility since you can use the outlets for facilities maintenance tasks if needed. Might also be cheaper in terms of maintenance; replacing outlets as needed would be a lot faster/cheaper than having to replace damaged EVSE/cable/connector because people are careless.

I don't know that EVSEs would be much more expensive than just outlets. These will be outside installations, with some sort of protection, I would assume. That's really what an EVSE is, a relay and a bit of logic for the car to learn how much power it can draw.

 

[gnuarm]

And hence, why evidently no one is listening to you. You are making it too hard and too expensive.

The concept that you are talking about just really isn't used that much in the US, and honestly, it's easier to install 240V charging than it is 120V charging.

Why would that be? The advantage of 120V charging is that the electricity costs are virtually zero. In the context I was asking about, a 240V charging setup will be able to fully charge a car overnight, for around $20, give or take. They will have to charge you for that.

In the long term parking, I'm already paying enough, that the cost of a 120V connection fades into the background.

But adding the cable is going to add significant cost to the solution, $100s per station. And the maintenance is going to be problematic as well, something happens to a cable and it has to be replaced.

You like to see problems that aren't a problem. Parking lots have lights, cameras and gates. There's very little damage to cars (other than accidents).

A lot of cars carry EVSEs in them.

No, that may have been true when you and I bought BEVs, but Tesla no longer includes the cable. So a lot of BEVs don't have EVSE cables.

And honestly, they are cheap enough that if you want remote charging, you should do so.

Do what???

Parking lots around my airport have a solution. There's a couple with a bunch of 120V plugs.

120V plugs where exactly? I've seen that in garages, but they are not for the cars, and will be used up very quickly as BEVs grow in numbers.

There are some with L2 solutions.
The ones with L2 solutions have maybe a dozen pedestals, the ones with 120V have DOZENS of spaces.

L2 is pointless in a parking lot for an airport. They mostly have idle fees, like the L3 chargers.

Install a cord and you'll probably have to pay per charge.

As I've mentioned, already paying for parking. The electricity on an L1 charger would barely be noticeable.

 

[ucmndd]

Why would that be? The advantage of 120V charging is that the electricity costs are virtually zero.

This is not how electricity works.

It makes no difference to the airport’s electric bill if it takes you a week to charge at 120v or 6 hours at 240v.

 

[gnuarm]

This is not how electricity works.

It makes no difference to the airport’s electric bill if it takes you a week to charge at 120v or 6 hours at 240v.

You don't understand finance. If I do $15 worth of charging in a day on a $20 parking fee, that's a big hit. If I do it on a $100 week of parking, that's not so much.

The reality is, adding level 2 chargers will make a big difference to the electric bill. That's why the airport doesn't install them. They let contractors install and operate them. Level 1 chargers would have little impact. Heck, they could bump the parking fee a couple of bucks to cover it, and make a profit!

 

[ucmndd]

You don't understand finance. If I do $15 worth of charging in a day on a $20 parking fee, that's a big hit. If I do it on a $100 week of parking, that's not so much.

Your example was long term parking at airports. Not many people parking in long term for a day, so the metric of interest is how much energy you can consume over an extended period, not how quickly it’s crammed into the battery.

The reality is, adding level 2 chargers will make a big difference to the electric bill.

No more so than adding a whole bunch of L1 chargers which is what you’re proposing. Same is same.

That's why the airport doesn't install them.

Sorry, this is baseless speculation. Airports farm out charging infrastructure for the same reason everyone else does. Running and maintaining EV charging stations is not their business, nor is giving away free electricity.

 

[ewoodrick]

Why would that be? The advantage of 120V charging is that the electricity costs are virtually zero. In the context I was asking about, a 240V charging setup will be able to fully charge a car overnight, for around $20, give or take. They will have to charge you for that.

In the long term parking, I'm already paying enough, that the cost of a 120V connection fades into the background.




You like to see problems that aren't a problem. Parking lots have lights, cameras and gates. There's very little damage to cars (other than accidents).



No, that may have been true when you and I bought BEVs, but Tesla no longer includes the cable. So a lot of BEVs don't have EVSE cables.



Do what???



120V plugs where exactly? I've seen that in garages, but they are not for the cars, and will be used up very quickly as BEVs grow in numbers.



L2 is pointless in a parking lot for an airport. They mostly have idle fees, like the L3 chargers.




As I've mentioned, already paying for parking. The electricity on an L1 charger would barely be noticeable.

Do you really think that the costs of a L2 charger and a 120V 20A plug are that close to each other?
Yes, the cost of 120V charging in long term fades into the background, that's exactly what I'm saying.
So you expect that when a parking garage finds that a cord has been pulled of, that there's no cost? Just the time to go through the cameras can be expensive, let alone the lawyer fees to try to collect the cost and the replacement.

I do believe that Tesla either includes the cable of at least a coupon for one.

Yes, I'm in Atlanta and there's at least one provider, Peachy Parking, that has one wall of a large warehouse, that's there indoor parking that's lines with 120V 20A duplex sockets. I'm pretty sure that I've seen other airports with the same solution. In previous conversations on the forums, there have been others that have indicated that there airport has the same capabilities.


And it seems as if you think that a L1 connector is a pedestal or wall mount. AFAIK, L1 is 120V
And you also seem to think that only one cord is needed, it's two, a Tesla and a J-1772;

At long term parking, the way to get businesses to adopt it is to give them a solution that can draw them more customer at little to no cost. A row of 120V sockets is that solution.

 

[Genie]

Do you really think that the costs of a L2 charger and a 120V 20A plug are that close to each other?
Yes, the cost of 120V charging in long term fades into the background, that's exactly what I'm saying.
So you expect that when a parking garage finds that a cord has been pulled of, that there's no cost? Just the time to go through the cameras can be expensive, let alone the lawyer fees to try to collect the cost and the replacement.

I do believe that Tesla either includes the cable of at least a coupon for one.

Yes, I'm in Atlanta and there's at least one provider, Peachy Parking, that has one wall of a large warehouse, that's there indoor parking that's lines with 120V 20A duplex sockets. I'm pretty sure that I've seen other airports with the same solution. In previous conversations on the forums, there have been others that have indicated that there airport has the same capabilities.


And it seems as if you think that a L1 connector is a pedestal or wall mount. AFAIK, L1 is 120V
And you also seem to think that only one cord is needed, it's two, a Tesla and a J-1772;

At long term parking, the way to get businesses to adopt it is to give them a solution that can draw them more customer at little to no cost. A row of 120V sockets is that solution.

Comparing the cost of a row of EVSE with the cost of a row of outlets (120v or 240v) is really apples and oranges.
Either could work at long term parking, but the for drivers the EVSE stall is more attractive. The lot with outlets means drivers need to bring a UMC or similar, and may be concerned about it being stolen, and then stowing the UMC. That seems easy enough to solve, but it is extra steps.

 

[gnuarm]

Your example was long term parking at airports. Not many people parking in long term for a day, so the metric of interest is how much energy you can consume over an extended period, not how quickly it’s crammed into the battery.

No more so than adding a whole bunch of L1 chargers which is what you’re proposing. Same is same.

Sorry, this is baseless speculation. Airports farm out charging infrastructure for the same reason everyone else does. Running and maintaining EV charging stations is not their business, nor is giving away free electricity.

Long term parking is cheap parking. There's no requirement to park any minimum amount of time. They will even charge you by the hour, until you reach the maximum for the day. The capital costs of level 2 chargers is higher, as well as the connection costs to be connected to the electric company. If you install 6 kW chargers, you have to have a connection that will support all of them charging at the same time. Then there are peak demand charges when they actually are charging at once.

I'm not talking about the airport farming out the installation of the chargers. I'm saying the airports are clueless about the planning. They literally know nothing about charging EVs and have no real understanding of level 1 vs. level 2 vs level 3. They only understand that someone will give them money to install some sort of charging, which they can then brag about. They understand little about the utility.

 

[gnuarm]

Do you really think that the costs of a L2 charger and a 120V 20A plug are that close to each other?
Yes, the cost of 120V charging in long term fades into the background, that's exactly what I'm saying.
So you expect that when a parking garage finds that a cord has been pulled of, that there's no cost? Just the time to go through the cameras can be expensive, let alone the lawyer fees to try to collect the cost and the replacement.

I do believe that Tesla either includes the cable of at least a coupon for one.

Yes, I'm in Atlanta and there's at least one provider, Peachy Parking, that has one wall of a large warehouse, that's there indoor parking that's lines with 120V 20A duplex sockets. I'm pretty sure that I've seen other airports with the same solution. In previous conversations on the forums, there have been others that have indicated that there airport has the same capabilities.


And it seems as if you think that a L1 connector is a pedestal or wall mount. AFAIK, L1 is 120V
And you also seem to think that only one cord is needed, it's two, a Tesla and a J-1772;

At long term parking, the way to get businesses to adopt it is to give them a solution that can draw them more customer at little to no cost. A row of 120V sockets is that solution.

Sorry, I don't understand most of your post. But the connector can be just a J1772. Teslas can use the adapter that comes with every car.

 

[gnuarm]

Comparing the cost of a row of EVSE with the cost of a row of outlets (120v or 240v) is really apples and oranges.
Either could work at long term parking, but the for drivers the EVSE stall is more attractive. The lot with outlets means drivers need to bring a UMC or similar, and may be concerned about it being stolen, and then stowing the UMC. That seems easy enough to solve, but it is extra steps.

Why can't an EVSE provide 120V? There's nothing magical about the voltage. Is there a standard that mandates 240V? I've never seen that.

 

[Genie]

Why can't an EVSE provide 120V? There's nothing magical about the voltage. Is there a standard that mandates 240V? I've never seen that.

I was contrasting the set up costs of outlet vs EVSE, this thread title is about Level 1 so I was not thinking of 240V.

 

[ewoodrick]

Sorry, I don't understand most of your post. But the connector can be just a J1772. Teslas can use the adapter that comes with every car.

So since theft of EVSE is one of your points.

The probability that you forget your J-1772 adapter is significantly larger than the EVSE getting stolen. It's actually a pretty common thing. And arriving at the car late, after a long flight is pretty well guaranteed to make is a probability that you'll forget it.

The whole thing is that if you are wanting parking lots to install free charging, then 120V plugs are the way to go, period.
If you want the classic J-1772/Nacs pedestals are the way to go.

It's probably well over $1000 per outlet difference in installation cost.

And if you make the cost enough where they have to charge for the service, then revenue will probably go to $0. Most cars really don't have to charge while at the airport.

 

[ucmndd]

If you install 6 kW chargers, you have to have a connection that will support all of them charging at the same time. Then there are peak demand charges when they actually are charging at once.

Just like if you install 4x the amount of 1.5kw chargers, which is what you appear to be advocating for in this thread since the beginning.

Again - same is same. There’s no magic to be had here.

 

[gnuarm]

I was contrasting the set up costs of outlet vs EVSE, this thread title is about Level 1 so I was not thinking of 240V.

No small part of the installation charge depends on the total max power from the grid. A 1.44 kW, 120V connection times N is a lot less than a 6 kW, 240V connection times N. All the local wiring will be 12 gauge wire instead of something much more substantial, like what, 8 gauge? I don't know what a 30 amp circuit requires. Then the grid connection costs as well and the utility charges a fee based on the connection, as well as the max demand charge which is substantial.

Wait, are you suggesting you would simply install outlets rather than 120V EVSEs?

 

[gnuarm]

So since theft of EVSE is one of your points.

The probability that you forget your J-1772 adapter is significantly larger than the EVSE getting stolen. It's actually a pretty common thing. And arriving at the car late, after a long flight is pretty well guaranteed to make is a probability that you'll forget it.

The whole thing is that if you are wanting parking lots to install free charging, then 120V plugs are the way to go, period.
If you want the classic J-1772/Nacs pedestals are the way to go.

It's probably well over $1000 per outlet difference in installation cost.

And if you make the cost enough where they have to charge for the service, then revenue will probably go to $0. Most cars really don't have to charge while at the airport.

How do you forget the J1772 adapter??? It's locked to the car until you release it.