-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
In the most simple terms more current requires more copper. Handling voltage is the job of the insulation.
Geez, such a bunch of weirdnesses in this thread. Let's see if it can be broken down into Something Simpler.
Because of the huge number of J1772-style public charging stations out there, Tesla provides a J1772 adapter for their cars. Far as I know, all the other BEVs out there either accept the J1772 natively or have a similar Tesla-style adapter.
Tesla is not the only one playing these games with a "mobile connector". I've seen Leafs, Bolts, and similar, all of which can certainly plug into Level 1, NEMA5-15 (that being the most common wall socket in North America), and probably NEMA6-50/NEMA14-50, those being popular at places like RV camp grounds. Having never owned a non-Tesla BEV, I'm less certain what-all adapter set a, say, Chevy Bolt comes with, but there it is.
Now, the OP's point is that he had a certain market in mind: BEVs parked at long-term parking. Most of that is at places, I dunno, like Airports, where people tend to ditch their cars and take to the air for a day, or days at a time. I've seen that kind of thing at ferry terminals (islands off the coast of California, northern Michigan, etc.). And, for fun, let's lump into this park-and-rides everywhere on the outskirts of big cities.
And this market is certainly growing and is expected to grow for a long time, especially as BEVs become the dominant form of automobile transportation.
So, as usual, when talking about an economic situation, we should talk about costs and competition.
Say that one is an owner of a long term parking lot. What's the cheapest thing to do?
Answer: Nothing. But then if another long-term offers some kind of BEV charging, all of the owners customers will go that-a-way, leaving one with no income. Oops! Isn't Adam Smith's invisible hand wonderful?
So, let's say our potential supplier of electrical energy to BEVs wants to do something? Our supplier has, for the sake of argument, two choices:
#2 is a bit of a problem. First, there's a lot of NEMA 240 VAC sockets. Which one is it likely that a potential customer might have, or can get? Whee. The standard that's out there is one and only: J1772. But that requires something like a Wall Connector, commercially rented or otherwise, more complex, and it's going to Cost More.
Remember the market: This is not a, "Park your car, go shopping for an hour or two, then return." This is a "Park your car for at least six to eight hours, but possibly for weeks."
Costs... As a gimmie, it would take our parking lot purveyor a Lot Less Capital to install a slew of 120 VAC sockets than to install L2 wall connectors. Possibly a low enough cost that every parking spot would get its own 120 VAC socket. And that might be 5X less than trying to put in Chargepoints or the like. This would keep parking rates low (even when considering the cost of the electricity), allowing for better rates than for one's competition.
Under these circumstances, I could envision an enlightened parking lot purveyor putting NEMA5-15s or 20's everywhere except for maybe a dozen stalls or so where a Level 2, J1772-based widget would go. Those people would pay a slightly higher fee.
Downsides to this approach:
- Level 1 is 120 VAC charging, at least in the US/Canada and whatnot. The wire connections at the socket are Hot, Neutral, and Ground. Most commonly used sockets are NEMA5-15 (good for 15A, max, 12A for charging) or NEMA5-20 (good for 20A max, 16A for charging).
- Level 2 is 240 VAC charging.
- If we're talking Wall Sockets, there are a relatively large number of sockets that could be available that have grown up over the years:
- NEMA6-50, two hots and a ground, good for 50A.
- NEMA14-50, two hots, a ground, and a neutral, good for 50A.
- NEMA14-30, two hots, a ground, and a neutral, good for 30A, 24A when charging.
- NEMA10-30, two hots and a ground, good for 30A, 24A when charging.
- NEMA6-20, two hots and a ground, good for 20A, 16A when charging.
- NEMA6-15, two hots and a ground, good for 15A, 12A when charging.
- If we're talking about what people typically call, "Public charging stations" (Yes, I know, the charger is actually in the car), then, pretty much, what one finds are NACS-style "Destination Chargers" which are pretty much Tesla Wall Connectors, or they're (mostly) Chargepoint (or similar) J1772-style cables.
- If we're talking Wall Sockets, there are a relatively large number of sockets that could be available that have grown up over the years:
Because of the huge number of J1772-style public charging stations out there, Tesla provides a J1772 adapter for their cars. Far as I know, all the other BEVs out there either accept the J1772 natively or have a similar Tesla-style adapter.
Tesla is not the only one playing these games with a "mobile connector". I've seen Leafs, Bolts, and similar, all of which can certainly plug into Level 1, NEMA5-15 (that being the most common wall socket in North America), and probably NEMA6-50/NEMA14-50, those being popular at places like RV camp grounds. Having never owned a non-Tesla BEV, I'm less certain what-all adapter set a, say, Chevy Bolt comes with, but there it is.
Now, the OP's point is that he had a certain market in mind: BEVs parked at long-term parking. Most of that is at places, I dunno, like Airports, where people tend to ditch their cars and take to the air for a day, or days at a time. I've seen that kind of thing at ferry terminals (islands off the coast of California, northern Michigan, etc.). And, for fun, let's lump into this park-and-rides everywhere on the outskirts of big cities.
And this market is certainly growing and is expected to grow for a long time, especially as BEVs become the dominant form of automobile transportation.
So, as usual, when talking about an economic situation, we should talk about costs and competition.
Say that one is an owner of a long term parking lot. What's the cheapest thing to do?
Answer: Nothing. But then if another long-term offers some kind of BEV charging, all of the owners customers will go that-a-way, leaving one with no income. Oops! Isn't Adam Smith's invisible hand wonderful?
So, let's say our potential supplier of electrical energy to BEVs wants to do something? Our supplier has, for the sake of argument, two choices:
- Level 1 (i.e., NEMA5-15/20) sockets.
- Level 2.
#2 is a bit of a problem. First, there's a lot of NEMA 240 VAC sockets. Which one is it likely that a potential customer might have, or can get? Whee. The standard that's out there is one and only: J1772. But that requires something like a Wall Connector, commercially rented or otherwise, more complex, and it's going to Cost More.
Remember the market: This is not a, "Park your car, go shopping for an hour or two, then return." This is a "Park your car for at least six to eight hours, but possibly for weeks."
Costs... As a gimmie, it would take our parking lot purveyor a Lot Less Capital to install a slew of 120 VAC sockets than to install L2 wall connectors. Possibly a low enough cost that every parking spot would get its own 120 VAC socket. And that might be 5X less than trying to put in Chargepoints or the like. This would keep parking rates low (even when considering the cost of the electricity), allowing for better rates than for one's competition.
Under these circumstances, I could envision an enlightened parking lot purveyor putting NEMA5-15s or 20's everywhere except for maybe a dozen stalls or so where a Level 2, J1772-based widget would go. Those people would pay a slightly higher fee.
Downsides to this approach:
- New Tesla owners would have to cough up $250 or so for a TMC. Don't know how much of a trouble that would be. Personally, I'd count that as the cost of a new car.
- Cold weather. Get below freezing with L1 charging and the charge rate goes 'way down, since the battery needs to be warmed up enough to charge, and the power available for heating is minimal. Not a problem in Florida or most of coastal California, but certainly an issue above most of the Mason-Dixon line in the winter.
Bolt EUV has a dual-voltage adapter with 5-15 and 14-50 (32A).
Bolt hatchback is 5-15 but has the dual voltage as an option (+$295, I think).
All the other dual-voltage I know of that you can get directly with the car are 5-15 + 14-50. Some EVs deliberately limit 120V to 12A on board.
The mobile connector is 32A limited even though new Bolts have a 48A onboard charger standard*.
As a rule I think these mobile connectors are limited to 32A because if you see a 14-50 socket it's only guaranteed to have a 40A breaker. There's no 40A socket.
* Yes, the Bolt is a good EV for driving within range. Just imagine if they can make it a Boltium and up the DCFC without adding much cost.
We're saying the same thing, so no arguments. The NEC has a clause for "steady, heavy loads" on a circuit, which means, for all intents and purposes, a BEV. The clause states that One Shall Not Draw More Than 80% Of The Circuit Rating. So, a NEMA5-15 is only good for 12A, a NEMA5-20 is only good for 16A, and so on.
As you again correctly point out, there's no 40A sockets in the NEMA world, which, apparently, was a problem for loads like electric stoves and clothes driers many of which, apparently, want a 40A circuit. The World At Large could have put in 50A breakers, 50A NEMA14-50's (or equivalent), and 50A wire; but electricians apparently complained, because copper is expensive. So there's a carve out for a 40A breaker, 40A wire (cheaper!) and a NEMA14-50 (whoops!), which is supposed to have a label on it. (Ha!). And a lack of idiots who would put a TMC with a NEMA14-50 plug adapter on it into 40A circuit (double ha!). So, there seems to be some crossover with Tesla on this, where, since they can't tell if it's a 40A or a 50A circuit out there, assumed 40A, did 80% of that, and that's at least one other reason that Tesla (and probably other BEV manufacturers) have limited the current to 32A.
There used to be Tesla Wall Connectors where, either by GUI or mechanical switches, that came with a NEMA14-50 plug on the end of the power cable for the thing, and those could be set to be on a 50A circuit, and could therefore do 40A, legit. But Tesla no longer sells those. Possibly because of idiots.
Regarding your, "*". As it happens, a relative of mine recently bought a Bolt, seeing as the range was good for his commuting and what-not. And I think last week GM has decided to extend the life of the Bolt, but put an "Ultium" battery in it. I think that's for mid next year.
If I had known the Bolt was not able to level 3 charge, I had forgotten it. That's a significant limitation. It is seriously lame to provide level 1 charging capability, but not level 2.
I assume EUV is a model identifier?
I don't have the numbers right in front of me, but I did check after my relative bought a Bolt. It does do DCFC. Unfortunately, it's not a fast rate, I think 50 kW? As compared to a Tesla that can pull 250 kW, albeit for a short time only.
The Level 1/Level 2 stuff is AC and standard. Not sure what the fastest L2 charge rate is on the car.
RayK
Active Member
AC means alternating current and is how city power comes. (Unless, I suppose, there's some corner of NYC or something that still had DC 120V hanging around somewhere.)
Pretty much every EV made (a) has batteries, (b) the batteries are DC, and (c) there's rectifiers in the car that accept 120 VAC (L1) or 208/240 VAC (L2), convert the AC to DC, then play some voltage level follies so the batteries can be charged.
Pretty much every BEV comes with something like a Tesla Mobile Connector that can be plugged into a 120 VAC socket, for sure, and may have additional follies for 208/240 VAC sockets. In addition, I'm not aware of any BEV that does not come with a J1772 port or adapter. J1772's are built for 208/240 charging, but, again, as far as I know, the only way to get a J1772 cable and plug is by using a Wall Connector or equivalent, commercial or otherwise.
Since all BEVs pretty much come with L1 (NEMA5-15/20) or J1772 (208/240), the question is what an enlightened parking lot owner would do. If said parking lot owner is doing long term parking, L1 makes the most economic sense for everybody, since NEMA5-15/20 sockets and hardware is cheap.
Wow! Maybe you should understand the question before you write a dissertation.
What do you mean by calling it "standard"? What part of this conversation has been about non-standard electrical connections???
You mean every BEV other than a Tesla? Teslas no longer come standard with a mobile connector cable.
L1 EVSE, yes, I agree.
Just quibbling, here.
So: I understand the meaning of the words, Electrical Vehicle Supply Equipment.
And if I came across such an acronym, what would come to mind immediately would be, say, a Juicebox. A Tesla Wall Connector. A Supercharger. EV-Go DCFC. Similar from Chargepoint or any other number of vendors. All of those being completely dedicated to charging electric vehicles.
It's Equipment. It's for Electric Vehicles. And it's used to Supply power to the electric vehicle.
Sure, I get all that. But say one has a large parking garage and there's a NEMA5-15 socket, say, next to every stall. OK.... That's pretty much the same socket I've got all over the place in my house. TV sets, lamps, radios, computer gear, refrigerators, microwaves, garbage disposals, alarm clocks. Um. Plus four or so scattered around the outside of the house with plastic covers and such so, I guess, I can run weed whackers, lawn edgers, and the like.
And, like.. If I park at the plaza downtown, like as not, there's a 120 VAC NEMA5-15 socket at the base of some of the lamp posts; guess the city puts them up so people can charge their cell phones, or maybe so city employees with a leaf blower can do their thing.
Now, I could haul out my Tesla Mobile Connector and plug into any of them. Easier with the one in the garage, of course, but I have a heavy duty extension cord and could even connect the car to the NEMA5-15 out on the front porch.
But calling those common-as-dirt NEMA5-15 sockets, "EVSE" kind of stretches the definition, don't you think? Sure, calling the Tesla Mobile Connector (and the equivalent with other BEVs) a bit of EVSE hardware.. sure, I guess. Bit of cable, funny sockets, electronics built in, fits the idea.
But it's the use of the term. Something like a Juicebox or Chargepoint station fits the definition of "EVSE" like a glove. A bog-standard, non-electronic, 120, 208, or 240 VAC socket.. not so much.
Admittedly, some long-term parking guy putting in a zillion NEMA5-15 sockets in a parking garage kind of fuzzes the definition a bit, since the purpose is to charge electric vehicles. But there's no electronics in those sockets (plus or minus a GFCI breaker somewhere). So a "L1 EVSE" seems to not make a whole bunch of sense.
Pedantic, I know. But words have meanings.
EVSE is a piece of equipment that interfaces between the power grid and the EV. It is not the outlet. If you connect the outlet to your car with a Telsa mobile cable, that is the EVSE, not the outlet. A simple electrical outlet is not an EVSE.
Please explain what you are talking about. You used a lot of words, but did not convey your thought well.
RayK
Active Member
A coupé (2 door), sedan (4 door), truck, minivan, van or SUV. Chevy calls it a small crossover SUV; slightly bigger than the hatchback Bolt but smaller than a regular-sized SUV. Google it.
Weird. Maybe if you've only had Teslas, that's your POV. Virtually every highway legal non-Tesla consumer BEV/PHEV for years, since Dec 2010 has references to level 1 and level 2 J1772 AC charging. Most of them for ages ONLY shipped with L1 120 volt EVSEs (NEMA 5-15 to J1772), usually 12 amps. I'm on my 4th BEV (two were the same model), all of them came ONLY with an L1 120 volt 12 amps EVSE.
Every single '11 to '17 US market Leaf, '17 to '21 Bolt and I'm pretty sure every single Volt came ONLY with L1 120 volt EVSEs and not even a dual voltage one. Yes, the Bolt's L1 EVSE could be fed 240 volts w/o damaging it but not the Nissan L1 only unit. For '18+ Leaf, for several years, it could come with an L1 only or L1/L2 EVSE depending on equipment level. We had some other thread I'm pretty sure here asking which US non-Teslas ship with L1/L2 or L2 EVSEs.
Due to slow charging times, many BEV drivers want to get an L2 EVSE installed at home. Many PHEVs don't have large batteries anyway so replenishing their small packs at L1 speeds is no big deal.
120 volt plug on the wall isn't the only means of L1 charging.
https://web.archive.org/web/20130823034430/http://www.l1powerpost.com/ even had its own domain and product page before they branched out to selling both L1 and L2 versions: Products | PowerPost EVSE.
The issue is that there can be electrical limits for the facility in question (e.g. max amps or kW that can be drawn). Most vehicles charging via L1 will pull no more than 1.44 kW (120 volts * 12 amps). GM vehicles will default to 8 amps (8 amps * 120 volts = 960 watts) unless you override it.
I don't know of places that install 208 or 208 volt charging that is limited to 1.44 kW, which would be 6 amps at 240 volts. They tend to install 16 to 30 or 32 amp EVSEs, so if you installed the same # of EVSEs, say 16 amps * 240 volts = 3840 watts, the overall electrical load for that facility would be much higher if their max output is 3.84 kW vs. 1.44 kW.
And, demand charges were pointed out, as well. You could serve far more vehicles if each EVSE had a lower wattage output max.
Last edited:
Some are adjustable, including Tesla's wall connector, Juicebox and units from Autel (see page 33 of the PDF at https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...maxicharger-home-user-manual.pdf?v=1659467651). Unfortunately, it seems after Clipper Creek was bought by Enphase, their catalog was slimmed down a ton.
Here are are some 16 amp L2 EVSEs (first two from Clipper Creek):
TurboCord Plug-In EV Charger
Quickly charge your EV up to 3x faster than with the standard cord set that came with your car. TurboCord works with all plug-in hybrid and EV models.
info.evsolutions.com
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
He has a fair point though. If you want skeptical property owners to be receptive of installing more L1 options, to stop using terms they don't understand (and don't want to understand) is a good first step. If you tell them it's just a 120V socket (or if installing a J1772 that it's the same power), they immediately understand what it means. If you say L1 they will likely gloss over.
Similar threads
