Public Level 1 Charging

[cwerdna]

He has a fair point though. If you want skeptical property owners to be receptive of installing more L1 options, to stop using terms they don't understand (and don't want to understand) is a good first step. If you tell them it's just a 120V socket (or if installing a J1772 that it's the same power), they immediately understand what it means. If you say L1 they will likely gloss over.

I haven't read this entire thread but installing 120 volt outlets in a public unsecured setting will likely mean low utilization. Many folks don't carry around their L1 or L1/L2 EVSE with them. I don't. I don't want mine stolen when charging publicly. It costs hundreds of $ to replace vs. getting a few $ of free juice.

The only times I've used my L1 EVSE away from home was when I had Leaf and I was charging in secured parking at my work that had a few NEMA 5-20 plugs and limited L2 EVSEs + one other case. So, I just kept the L2s open for other workers. Charging all day at 1.44 kW was MORE than enough to replenish my roundtrip commute. The other case was there was some free public L2 charging near home that was pretty busy. It also had usually working NEMA 5-15 or 5-20 outlets, so I'd plug into those while waiting for L2 to free up.

The only times I ever carried the L1 EVSEs in my car that came w/my '22 Niro EV and my former Bolt (below) were driving the car home from the dealer and in the case of Bolt, when I drove it to another dealer to surrender it for buyback by GM 3 years later. I rarely carried it in my Leaf and it went to nil once we moved to other buildings with WAY more L2 J1772 plugs, unsecured parking and no designated ok to charge your EV on 120 volt plugs.

If I had known the Bolt was not able to level 3 charge, I had forgotten it. That's a significant limitation. It is seriously lame to provide level 1 charging capability, but not level 2.

Not sure what the means, there's no such thing as "level 3" charging anyway, which can be a whole other argument (e.g. There is no such thing as a Level 3 EV charger (Weber... + many other times and places).

Bolts can be DC fast charged via CCS1 but the DC FCing was optional on US Bolts until model year '22. Stranded in Texas, With only 15 miles found out the hard way he couldn't DC FC. I've seen numerous other stories of people not knowing and finding out after they bought.

Bolts that can be DC fast charged have an inlet on the left of How to find out if a used Bolt has DC fast charger? w/the orange flap. I owned a '19 Bolt Premier w/DC FC inlet (optional) for 3 years and bought it new in Jan 2019.

Max DC FC rate on Bolt is unfortunately only 55 kW.

 

[cwerdna]

I assume EUV is a model identifier?

As opposed to what?

2023 Bolt EV: Electric Car | Chevrolet vs.

Site Maintenance

Site Maintenance

- Bolt EV was basically a small hatchback. This press release says “The new Bolt EUV is the best of the Bolt EV packaged in an SUV-like vehicle with more technology and features, giving customers more choices and reasons to switch to electric..."

For '17 to '21, the only Bolt sold was the EV. Then came the EUV, so since '22 model year, they've sold both the EV and EUV.

https://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/chevrolet/na/us/english/index/shopping-tools/download-catalog/04-pdf/2022-chevy-bolt-ev-ebrochure.pdf

https://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/chevrolet/na/us/english/index/shopping-tools/download-catalog/06-pdf/2022-Chevrolet-Bolt-EUV-eBrochure.pdf

What does that mean, "The Level 1/Level 2 stuff is AC and standard"???

He's probably saying that Bolt EV and EUV can J1772 charge over level 1 and 2 and that J1772 is AC only. That is standard (comes with the car). On '17 to '21 US-market Bolts, DC fast charging inlet (see earlier post) was OPTIONAL, as in not standard, didn't come with the car automatically.

Search https://cdn.dealereprocess.org/cdn/brochures/chevrolet/2019-bolt.pdf for DC fast. Notice that on page 14, the capability is optional?

For '21, https://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/che...evrolet-bolt-ev-changes-updates-new-features/
"DC fast charging is now standard on 2LT models

• For the 2020 model year, this feature was available for both LT and Premier models, and remains available for 2021 Bolt EV LT models"

You can see that on page 17 of https://cdn.dealereprocess.org/cdn/brochures/chevrolet/2021-boltev.pdf, it's standard on Premier, which IIRC == 2LT.

For many years (I'll start with Dec 2010), US-market highway legal BEV automobiles have been sold where the DC fast charging inlet was optional or n/a, not even as an option.

 

[gnuarm]

A coupé (2 door), sedan (4 door), truck, minivan, van or SUV. Chevy calls it a small crossover SUV; slightly bigger than the hatchback Bolt but smaller than a regular-sized SUV. Google it.

I didn't realize GM makes EVs as all those models. When did they introduce them???

Google what? EVs?

 

[cwerdna]

I didn't realize GM makes EVs as all those models. When did they introduce them???

Google what? EVs?

They don't, at least not for the US market.

Besides Bolt EV and EUV, there are these:

https://www.gobrightdrop.com/products/brightdrop-zevo

Site Maintenance

Site Maintenance

They had the Chevrolet Pressroom - United States - Spark EV compliance car.

2024 Chevy Blazer EV deliveries start with AWD, 279-mile range

The 2024 Chevrolet Blazer EV will be offered in LT, RS, and SS trims, with front-wheel-drive, rear-wheel-drive, and all-wheel-drive versions.

www.greencarreports.com

The First-Ever Equinox EV: Electric SUV | Chevrolet is coming.

Hmm, I should've just pointed to the list near the end of US: General Motors BEV Sales Disappointed In Q2 2023. They have some other BEVs sold in China but I haven't followed them like Take a look at the tiny, 2-door electric hatchback that’s been outselling Tesla's Model 3, SAIC-GM-Wuling Launches Wuling Air EV in China, https://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/chevrolet/menlo-ev/, Buick Velite 6 - Wikipedia and Buick Velite 7 - Wikipedia.

 

[gnuarm]

I haven't read this entire thread but installing 120 volt outlets in a public unsecured setting will likely mean low utilization. Many folks don't carry around their L1 or L1/L2 EVSE with them. I don't. I don't want mine stolen when charging publicly. It costs hundreds of $ to replace vs. getting a few $ of free juice.

I always carry my cable. You literally don't know when you might need it. Everyone thinks of the simple situations where you are driving and you just stop before you get too low. But, EVs lose range unexpectedly. Cold is a major factor. You can park a car with 10% overnight and find it only has 1 or 2% in the morning. That might not get you to a charger and you'll need even a level 1 charge to get anywhere useful. Ask me how I know!

The only times I've used my L1 EVSE away from home was when I had Leaf and I was charging in secured parking at my work that had a few NEMA 5-20 plugs and limited L2 EVSEs + one other case. So, I just kept the L2s open for other workers. Charging all day at 1.44 kW was MORE than enough to replenish my roundtrip commute. The other case was there was some free public L2 charging near home that was pretty busy. It also had usually working NEMA 5-15 or 5-20 outlets, so I'd plug into those while waiting for L2 to free up.

The only times I ever carried the L1 EVSEs in my car that came w/my '22 Niro EV and my former Bolt (below) were driving the car home from the dealer and in the case of Bolt, when I drove it to another dealer to surrender it for buyback by GM 3 years later. I rarely carried it in my Leaf and it went to nil once we moved to other buildings with WAY more L2 J1772 plugs, unsecured parking and no designated ok to charge your EV on 120 volt plugs.


Not sure what the means, there's no such thing as "level 3" charging anyway, which can be a whole other argument (e.g. There is no such thing as a Level 3 EV charger (Weber... + many other times and places).

I did some digging, and found you are right. There used to be a AC level 3 charging term, but it is deprecated. What everyone calls level 3, is actually DC level 1 and DC level 2. Could they have munged this up any more???

Bolts can be DC fast charged via CCS1 but the DC FCing was optional on US Bolts until model year '22. Stranded in Texas, With only 15 miles found out the hard way he couldn't DC FC. I've seen numerous other stories of people not knowing and finding out after they bought.

Bolts that can be DC fast charged have an inlet on the left of How to find out if a used Bolt has DC fast charger? w/the orange flap. I owned a '19 Bolt Premier w/DC FC inlet (optional) for 3 years and bought it new in Jan 2019.

Max DC FC rate on Bolt is unfortunately only 55 kW.

That's like the Leaf, except the Leaf used to not support DC fast charging, at all. Only the last few years has that been part of the car. Now you can charge at up to about 50 kW. That's probably why Japan is loaded with 50 kW DC charger, and very few faster. The Japanese think 50 kW is enough.

 

[cwerdna]

I always carry my cable. You literally don't know when you might need it. Everyone thinks of the simple situations where you are driving and you just stop before you get too low. But, EVs lose range unexpectedly. Cold is a major factor. You can park a car with 10% overnight and find it only has 1 or 2% in the morning. That might not get you to a charger and you'll need even a level 1 charge to get anywhere useful. Ask me how I know!

I don't. I've been driving BEVs as my primary car for over 10 years now. I've been w/o any ICEV in my household of 1 since end of Jan 2019.

I don't have the parasitic drain problem from being parked in my current and former BEVs. That's a Tesla-specific problem. You can leave Leafs parked for months and they'll lose virtually no SoC, for example. Bolts have virtually no parasitic drain. I haven't noticed any with my Niro EV.

There's plenty of L2 and DC FCing where I am/go. I just check Plugshare. I'm in Silicon Valley. Just pick any random city here (e.g. Santa Clara, not where I live) and filter by J1772 and CCS/SAE Combo. Level 1 is WAY too slow. I'd rather find L2 J1772 or CCS1 if I'm low.

I've done road trips spanning 1000 miles and another ~1200 miles in my BEVs (Bolt and Niro EV) and didn't carry the useless L1 EVSE.

That's like the Leaf, except the Leaf used to not support DC fast charging, at all. Only the last few years has that been part of the car. Now you can charge at up to about 50 kW. That's probably why Japan is loaded with 50 kW DC charger, and very few faster. The Japanese think 50 kW is enough.

DC fast charging (via CHAdeMO inlet) has been available on Leaf since its 1st model year: 2011, that went on sale in Dec 2010. For the US, it was optional on '11 SL trim. For '12, it was standard with SL trim: 2012 Nissan Leaf gets higher price tag, more standard equipment - Autoblog. For '13 to '17 SL, it was standard. For '13 to '17 S and SV, it was optional. It gets more complicated after that.

I leased a '13 SV w/both packages for 2 years so it got CHAdeMO. It used the CHAdeMO inlet maybe 16 times... I bought a used '13 SV w/premium package but without the quick charge + LED headlights package, so it could NOT be DC fast charged since it had no CHAdeMO inlet.

'19+ Leaf Plus can charge faster than 50 kW: Nissan LEAF Might Have A Good Fast Charging Curve With Active TMS.

Here are some other US-market BEVs since Dec 2010 where it was optional for at least one model year:
- Model S - 40 kWh didn't have DC FC access (and ended up being a 60 kWh car capped to 40 kWh). 60 kWh you had to pay for Supercharger access at one point.
- BMW i3
- VW e-Golf - was standard then became optional
- Spark EV (First Car Sold With CCS Fast Charging Now Delayed To December, before that point you couldn't get one with DC FC inlet)
- Bolt EV (besides the pics, I have personally seen at work and in public, Bolts WITHOUT DC FC (CCS1) inlet).

Couldn't be DC FCed even as an option:
- Ford Focus gen 1
- Smart ForTwo ED both gens
- Fiat 500e
- Gen 2 RAV4 EV
- Mercedes B-Class (B250e) ED
- Coda
- Honda Fit EV (CHAdeMO was available or standard on JDM version but n/a on US version)

There are probably more that I've left off. On a side note, I got some good info from a Tesla driver in Japan re: "intermediate charge" terminology: CHAdeMO Make/Model Review — Using with a Tesla.

 

[gnuarm]

I don't. I've been driving BEVs as my primary car for over 10 years now. I've been w/o any ICEV in my household of 1 since end of Jan 2019.

I don't have the parasitic drain problem from being parked in my current and former BEVs. That's a Tesla-specific problem. You can leave Leafs parked for months and they'll lose virtually no SoC, for example. Bolts have virtually no parasitic drain. I haven't noticed any with my Niro EV.

What I mentioned is not “parasitic” drain. It is the loss of charge from the battery getting cold mostly. There are also issues of the range prediction not being accurate enough. Once, I passed two chargers before I turned off the highway, taking back roads for the final leg of a trip. The anticipated arrival state of charge dropped from 15% to 0%. I managed to find one working level 2 charger at a relative backwater town library.

My point is, it is easy to feel confident when 99.9% of your trips work great... until you encounter that one bad trip. Hubris is something to be avoided.

There's plenty of L2 and DC FCing where I am/go. I just check Plugshare. I'm in Silicon Valley. Just pick any random city here (e.g. Santa Clara, not where I live) and filter by J1772 and CCS/SAE Combo. Level 1 is WAY too slow. I'd rather find L2 J1772 or CCS1 if I'm low.

I've done road trips spanning 1000 miles and another ~1200 miles in my BEVs (Bolt and Niro EV) and didn't carry the useless L1 EVSE.

We aren't talking about connecting a trailer with a backup battery. You can have all the charging location tools in the world. They do you no good if there's no charger close enough, or the one you need is broken. As I say, hubris.

DC fast charging (via CHAdeMO inlet) has been available on Leaf since its 1st model year: 2011, that went on sale in Dec 2010. For the US, it was optional on '11 SL trim. For '12, it was standard with SL trim: 2012 Nissan Leaf gets higher price tag, more standard equipment - Autoblog. For '13 to '17 SL, it was standard. For '13 to '17 S and SV, it was optional. It gets more complicated after that.

I leased a '13 SV w/both packages for 2 years so it got CHAdeMO. It used the CHAdeMO inlet maybe 16 times... I bought a used '13 SV w/premium package but without the quick charge + LED headlights package, so it could NOT be DC fast charged since it had no CHAdeMO inlet.

'19+ Leaf Plus can charge faster than 50 kW: Nissan LEAF Might Have A Good Fast Charging Curve With Active TMS.

Here are some other US-market BEVs since Dec 2010 where it was optional for at least one model year:
- Model S - 40 kWh didn't have DC FC access (and ended up being a 60 kWh car capped to 40 kWh). 60 kWh you had to pay for Supercharger access at one point.
- BMW i3
- VW e-Golf - was standard then became optional
- Spark EV (First Car Sold With CCS Fast Charging Now Delayed To December, before that point you couldn't get one with DC FC inlet)
- Bolt EV (besides the pics, I have personally seen at work and in public, Bolts WITHOUT DC FC (CCS1) inlet).

Couldn't be DC FCed even as an option:
- Ford Focus gen 1
- Smart ForTwo ED both gens
- Fiat 500e
- Gen 2 RAV4 EV
- Mercedes B-Class (B250e) ED
- Coda
- Honda Fit EV (CHAdeMO was available or standard on JDM version but n/a on US version)

There are probably more that I've left off. On a side note, I got some good info from a Tesla driver in Japan re: "intermediate charge" terminology: CHAdeMO Make/Model Review — Using with a Tesla.

I have no idea why you are posting all that. Moving forward, North America will be dominated by CCS1 and NACS (Tesla), likely with both connectors on all newly installed units. Many EV makers have said they will be discontinuing Chademo in North America.

DC fast charging adapters are a PITA.

 

[gnuarm]

They don't, at least not for the US market.

Then that returns to the question of what does EUV mean with the Bolt?

Besides Bolt EV and EUV, there are these:

https://www.gobrightdrop.com/products/brightdrop-zevo

Site Maintenance

Site Maintenance

They had the Chevrolet Pressroom - United States - Spark EV compliance car.

2024 Chevy Blazer EV deliveries start with AWD, 279-mile range

The 2024 Chevrolet Blazer EV will be offered in LT, RS, and SS trims, with front-wheel-drive, rear-wheel-drive, and all-wheel-drive versions.

www.greencarreports.com

The First-Ever Equinox EV: Electric SUV | Chevrolet is coming.

Hmm, I should've just pointed to the list near the end of US: General Motors BEV Sales Disappointed In Q2 2023. They have some other BEVs sold in China but I haven't followed them like Take a look at the tiny, 2-door electric hatchback that’s been outselling Tesla's Model 3, SAIC-GM-Wuling Launches Wuling Air EV in China, https://gmauthority.com/blog/gm/chevrolet/menlo-ev/, Buick Velite 6 - Wikipedia and Buick Velite 7 - Wikipedia.

Thanks

 

[cwerdna]

What I mentioned is not “parasitic” drain. It is the loss of charge from the battery getting cold mostly. There are also issues of the range prediction not being accurate enough. Once, I passed two chargers before I turned off the highway, taking back roads for the final leg of a trip. The anticipated arrival state of charge dropped from 15% to 0%. I managed to find one working level 2 charger at a relative backwater town library.

My point is, it is easy to feel confident when 99.9% of your trips work great... until you encounter that one bad trip. Hubris is something to be avoided.

Due to being super busy with work and other things, I don't get the opportunity to drive that much and that all went downhill too due to COVID WFH and when there were no vaccines yet. As such, collectively across all the BEVs I've had, I've only accumulated about 128K miles on them.

Teslas have significant phantom/vampire drains when turned off for various reasons (e.g. battery thermal management, keeping some systems alive, being woken remotely to check status, etc.) besides sentry mode and cabin overheat protection. Leafs don't have any of this. It's not even clear how hot Bolt's battery needs to get for battery thermal management to engage when the car isn't plugged in and is off (see Battery conditioning).

I understand what you're referring to in terms of reduced capacity due to a colder pack.

We aren't talking about connecting a trailer with a backup battery. You can have all the charging location tools in the world. They do you no good if there's no charger close enough, or the one you need is broken. As I say, hubris.

Sure, but I use Plugshare and if I go somewhere far, I try to have at least 1 backup for each charging site. Bringing along level 1 120 volt EVSE to charge at 12 amps is silly for a road trip. It is WAY too slow and then I need to find a suitable working NEMA 5-15 or 5-20 outlet that won't overheat and where I won't trip a breaker somewhere.

A working J1772 public EVSE that I find on Plugshare is almost always going to be level 2 and several times faster. I've yet to use a single public or workplace L1 J1772 EVSE. I've used plenty of public L2 J1772, including earlier tonight. And, I have free L2 J1772 juice at work.

If I were going somewhere with a total lack of L2 and CCS1 charging or where Plugshare scores and recent check-ins look super bad, then sure, I might bring along my L1 EVSE (since I don't have any L2 EVSE) but that would be a total last resort. I'd first look at other options e.g. Tesla to J1772 adapter (assuming there are "destination chargers" available) or buying an adjustable L2 EVSE that supports various plugs (e.g. Mobile Connector + https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters + Tesla to J1772 adapter). So far, haven't needed this in my over 10 years of BEV driving.

I have no idea why you are posting all that. Moving forward, North America will be dominated by CCS1 and NACS (Tesla), likely with both connectors on all newly installed units. Many EV makers have said they will be discontinuing Chademo in North America.

It was on response to your question "What does that mean, "The Level 1/Level 2 stuff is AC and standard"???" J1772 is AC charging and I can't think of a single US-market highway legal EV/PHEV automobile sold/leased in the US since Dec 2010 that doesn't support both L1 and L2 J1772 AC charging (yes, Teslas have to use https://shop.tesla.com/product/sae-j1772-charging-adapter). It is standard.

DC charging, usually fast inlets as I said have been optional on numerous BEVs and on numerous models, totally n/a, so not standard or not available.

I don't know who "many" is? Who has said said so? Yes, I'm aware of actions of Tesla, Kia, Nissan and Mitsubishi Motors on this front.

Then that returns to the question of what does EUV mean with the Bolt?

Bolt EV and Bolt EUV are two different vehicles, although very closely related. Bolt EV has been available since Dec 2016, starting with model year '17: Chevrolet Delivers First Bolt EVs to Customers. Bolt EV got an interior and exterior refresh with model year '22.

Bolt EUV didn't exist until model year '22 and both have been sold side by side since.

See below for product info.
Bolt EV:

https://cdn.dealereprocess.org/cdn/brochures/chevrolet/2023-boltev.pdf

Site Maintenance

Bolt EUV:

https://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/chevrolet/na/us/english/index/shopping-tools/download-catalog/10-pdf/2023-chevrolet-bolt-euv-ebrochure.pdf

Site Maintenance

This is also why I pointed to Chevrolet Grows EV Lineup with 2022 Bolt EUV and Bolt EV.
"Today, Chevrolet expanded its electric vehicle portfolio with the introduction of the new, all-electric 2022 Bolt EUV, alongside the redesigned 2022 Bolt EV."

Some of the verbiage there is related to ItsNotAboutTheMoney's post 45. "The new Dual Level Charge Cord is standard with Bolt EUV and is available for Bolt EV." There is referring to EUV coming with a L1/L2 120/240 volt EVSE vs. just an L1 120 volt only EVSE (which is what ALL '17 to '21 Bolts only came with).

Besides this, I can't off the top of my head list off all the feature differences besides other attributes but I do recall that Super Cruise was available on EUV only. https://gmauthority.com/blog/2021/0...s-2022-chevy-bolt-euv-dimensional-comparison/ is probably accurate. See https://gmauthority.com/blog/2021/03/chevy-bolt-ev-vs-bolt-euv-how-to-tell-between-them-quickly/.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I haven't read this entire thread but installing 120 volt outlets in a public unsecured setting will likely mean low utilization. Many folks don't carry around their L1 or L1/L2 EVSE with them. I don't. I don't want mine stolen when charging publicly. It costs hundreds of $ to replace vs. getting a few $ of free juice.

The only times I've used my L1 EVSE away from home was when I had Leaf and I was charging in secured parking at my work that had a few NEMA 5-20 plugs and limited L2 EVSEs + one other case. So, I just kept the L2s open for other workers. Charging all day at 1.44 kW was MORE than enough to replenish my roundtrip commute. The other case was there was some free public L2 charging near home that was pretty busy. It also had usually working NEMA 5-15 or 5-20 outlets, so I'd plug into those while waiting for L2 to free up.

The only times I ever carried the L1 EVSEs in my car that came w/my '22 Niro EV and my former Bolt (below) were driving the car home from the dealer and in the case of Bolt, when I drove it to another dealer to surrender it for buyback by GM 3 years later. I rarely carried it in my Leaf and it went to nil once we moved to other buildings with WAY more L2 J1772 plugs, unsecured parking and no designated ok to charge your EV on 120 volt plugs.

No one is going to disagree that having a public L2 available is way better for the end user, but it also costs a lot more money. When given choice between no charging at all, and a L1, I think most people would choose the L1. In context, the thread was about how to convince property owners to install L1s at least, and calling them 120V outlets is a way to reduce the resistance.

In a same way, even though the term EVSE is the correct term, for laypeople, I don't correct them when they say charger or even say charger myself, because they understand that term better. Trying to push more technical language can backfire when it's not important to the context (it might matter for example when diagnosing a problem where it's not clear if the issue is with the EVSE or OBC).

 

[gnuarm]

Due to being super busy with work and other things, I don't get the opportunity to drive that much and that all went downhill too due to COVID WFH and when there were no vaccines yet. As such, collectively across all the BEVs I've had, I've only accumulated about 128K miles on them.

Teslas have significant phantom/vampire drains when turned off for various reasons (e.g. battery thermal management, keeping some systems alive, being woken remotely to check status, etc.) besides sentry mode and cabin overheat protection. Leafs don't have any of this. It's not even clear how hot Bolt's battery needs to get for battery thermal management to engage when the car isn't plugged in and is off (see Battery conditioning).

I think you exaggerate the Tesla vampire drain. Things like sentry mode and cabin over heat aren't really part of the vampire drain anymore than connecting a power tool to the 12V accessory outlet would be. Otherwise, there is very little drain.

You probably should not use a Leaf as a point of comparison. The Leaf can't even maintain the temperature of the battery when charging, much less than when the car is parked. It's not actually an advantage to not have useful features simply because they use power.

I understand what you're referring to in terms of reduced capacity due to a colder pack.

Sure, but I use Plugshare and if I go somewhere far, I try to have at least 1 backup for each charging site. Bringing along level 1 120 volt EVSE to charge at 12 amps is silly for a road trip. It is WAY too slow and then I need to find a suitable working NEMA 5-15 or 5-20 outlet that won't overheat and where I won't trip a breaker somewhere.

I don't know what it takes to make long trips in a non-Tesla car. I don't have an image in my mind of trying to use tools on my phone to plan and manage trips. I just use the tools built into the car, which guide your trip using the best charging network in the US, rather than a conglomeration of multiple networks, which have reliability issues.

You seem to misunderstand what I'm saying about the mobile cable. If you have it, and run into a situation where you can not reach a charger, you can use that cable as a last line of defense, charging from any household outlet. If you fail to bring it, you might as well be broken down, since you car will need to be towed.

I'm just saying, there's zero advantage to leaving it at home.

A working J1772 public EVSE that I find on Plugshare is almost always going to be level 2 and several times faster. I've yet to use a single public or workplace L1 J1772 EVSE. I've used plenty of public L2 J1772, including earlier tonight. And, I have free L2 J1772 juice at work.

That's wonderful if you can reach one and it works. I hope you never find yourself a long way from home, unable to drive, because that level 1 charger isn't working.

If I were going somewhere with a total lack of L2 and CCS1 charging or where Plugshare scores and recent check-ins look super bad, then sure, I might bring along my L1 EVSE (since I don't have any L2 EVSE) but that would be a total last resort. I'd first look at other options e.g. Tesla to J1772 adapter (assuming there are "destination chargers" available) or buying an adjustable L2 EVSE that supports various plugs (e.g. Mobile Connector + https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters + Tesla to J1772 adapter). So far, haven't needed this in my over 10 years of BEV driving.

This is hubris. Good luck with continuing your trend. You keep talking about not needing the cable. You have not provided one bit of info on why you don't bring it.

It was on response to your question "What does that mean, "The Level 1/Level 2 stuff is AC and standard"???" J1772 is AC charging and I can't think of a single US-market highway legal EV/PHEV automobile sold/leased in the US since Dec 2010 that doesn't support both L1 and L2 J1772 AC charging (yes, Teslas have to use https://shop.tesla.com/product/sae-j1772-charging-adapter). It is standard.

Of course it is "standard". That's why I don't know what you meant by saying it is standard. In fact, the standard number is... wait for it... J1772!

So, what was your point in saying this?

DC charging, usually fast inlets as I said have been optional on numerous BEVs and on numerous models, totally n/a, so not standard or not available.

Sorry, I'm not following this at all. I think you are using "standard" to mean it is everywhere or something like that. That's not what standard means to me. Pick another word.

I don't know who "many" is? Who has said said so? Yes, I'm aware of actions of Tesla, Kia, Nissan and Mitsubishi Motors on this front.

I don't really get what you are talking about. Only the Asian companies sell cars with Chademo connectors. I know Nissan has said they are dropping the Chademo connector on cars sold in North America. I don't recall the other, but I believe it was Korean. I have no idea why you are mentioning Tesla in this.

Bolt EV and Bolt EUV are two different vehicles, although very closely related. Bolt EV has been available since Dec 2016, starting with model year '17: Chevrolet Delivers First Bolt EVs to Customers. Bolt EV got an interior and exterior refresh with model year '22.

Bolt EUV didn't exist until model year '22 and both have been sold side by side since.

See below for product info.
Bolt EV:

https://cdn.dealereprocess.org/cdn/brochures/chevrolet/2023-boltev.pdf

Site Maintenance

Bolt EUV:

https://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/chevrolet/na/us/english/index/shopping-tools/download-catalog/10-pdf/2023-chevrolet-bolt-euv-ebrochure.pdf

Site Maintenance

This is also why I pointed to Chevrolet Grows EV Lineup with 2022 Bolt EUV and Bolt EV.
"Today, Chevrolet expanded its electric vehicle portfolio with the introduction of the new, all-electric 2022 Bolt EUV, alongside the redesigned 2022 Bolt EV."

Some of the verbiage there is related to ItsNotAboutTheMoney's post 45. "The new Dual Level Charge Cord is standard with Bolt EUV and is available for Bolt EV." There is referring to EUV coming with a L1/L2 120/240 volt EVSE vs. just an L1 120 volt only EVSE (which is what ALL '17 to '21 Bolts only came with).

Besides this, I can't off the top of my head list off all the feature differences besides other attributes but I do recall that Super Cruise was available on EUV only. https://gmauthority.com/blog/2021/0...s-2022-chevy-bolt-euv-dimensional-comparison/ is probably accurate. See https://gmauthority.com/blog/2021/03/chevy-bolt-ev-vs-bolt-euv-how-to-tell-between-them-quickly/.

Ok, I don't really care much about the Bolt. I didn't know they treat the two versions as if they were different cars. Whatever. I virtually never read manufacturers' publicity blurbs because they fill them with marking garbage and little real info. Thanks for the update.

 

[gnuarm]

No one is going to disagree that having a public L2 available is way better for the end user, but it also costs a lot more money. When given choice between no charging at all, and a L1, I think most people would choose the L1. In context, the thread was about how to convince property owners to install L1s at least, and calling them 120V outlets is a way to reduce the resistance.

Not "property owners", airports with long term parking. That is a unique situation for charging. Level 2 charging offers no real advantage over level 1, because very few people will be parking for only a day or two. Level 1 charging is less expensive to install, and less expensive to operate. The fact that level 1 charging is unlikely to complete in a day or even two, means less variation in the demand level, which is a significant part of the cost of running faster charging.

 

[Tronguy]

OK. So, we got this more or less centered on my first comment on this thread, which people have gotten away from.

Use case: Long term parking lots. Minimum stay: 8 hours. Maximum stay: a number of days.

Options:

• A: 120 VAC NEMA5-15 or NEMA5-20 socket in all, or nearly all parking lot stalls. BEV/Plug-In Hybrid owners would bring their own, "EVSE" for Level 1, be it a Tesla Mobile Connector, or whatever Ford/GM/Volvo/Nissan/whoever supplies for the purpose, plug in and go to town.
• B: 240 VAC NEMA-style sockets for L2 charging. Again, BEV/Plug-In Hybrid owners would bring their own "EVSE", but for Level 2 this time.
• C: 240 VAC "EVSE" boxes, like Tesla Wall Connectors or (what seems like an infinite number of) other Wall Connectors, mostly using J1772.

Pluses, minuses, and issues:

• Compatibility:
  • Car owners:
    • Type A: Most have the EVSE to do it or, unfortunately in Tesla's case, has to buy the Mobile Connector
    • Type B: Problem is that there's a large number of 240 VAC types. Teslas used to come with NEMA14-50s, but those are buried in the other types, at the same amperage even, all over the map.
    • Type C: Everybody's got a J1772. In the long term, like ten years out, J1772 may get phased out in favor of NACS, since NACS will be native to cars and can do 240 VAC.
  • Garage owners: Not really an issue for them; this whole discussion is what would be best for them.
• Cost
  • Car Owners:
    • Type A: If they don't have it (looking at you, Tesla), they'll have to buy it. A couple of hundred bucks. Seems like everybody else gets 'em gratis.
    • Type B: Given the large number of different connectors, whichever one a garage owner picks, a medium double-digit percentage of their customer base is going to have to buy hardware. A hundred bucks or so.
    • Type C: Everybody has a J1772 or (much later) will have NACS. Current BEV/Plug-in Hybrid might have to buy a NACS->J1772 down the road a bit.
  • Garage owners:
    • Type A wins, hands down. Outdoor NEMA5-15/20 are a dime a dozen, relatively speaking. Might have to have One Breaker Per Outlet, which raises costs, but all the other options (Type B, Type C) are the same in that regard. Note that maintenance costs might be an issue, but it's a lower power (less current) type connector, so, dunno. Comments?
    • Type B: More expensive because relatively higher power connectors are more expensive, especially if they're going to get plugged in/out a lot. There have been complaints around these parts about cheapie NEMA14-50s not lasting very long: For a parking lot full of the things, any wear-out issues would be an issue.
    • Type C: Most expensive, because the Box Has Electronics. Wall Connectors are $450 or so a pop; 32A non-managed boxes (i.e., not Chargepoint et. al.) are going to be in that range. The managed ones where people have to Pay Up.. the users won't like it, the usage rate (i.e., # of cars a day) is going to be dead low, so the managed guys won't make money on the deal. As far as maintenance goes: The more electronics one throws into a box, any box, the bigger the FIT rate, fact of life. So, a garage with a couple of thousand or five thousand parking places is likely to have a Failure Per Day, which means having to hire or pay someone to Do All That Repair. More costs. Comments?
• Reliability
  • Type A, Type B: As good as a wall socket gets. Type A sockets can be bought that take a lot of use. But they're generally cheap to replace. Type B costs more on replacement costs, not sure about the wear rates.
  • Type C: J1772s connectors are built to take a lot of use, same for (eventual) NACS. But the electronics raises the FIT rate, so a J1772/NACS box that goes bad needs relatively expensive repair. Comments?
• Feature/Charge Rate:
  • Type A: For an eight-hour stint, one is going to get maybe 40 miles. For several days, the cars are going to get charged. Not fast.
  • Type B: An eight-hour stint or less will get the car charged. On a 32A circuit (pretty common), 8 hours adds 256 miles to most Teslas and probably roughly that for everybody.
  • Type C: Same as B, except that the cost of the EVSE is on the garage owner,

Conclusion: Fill up a parking lot with 120 VAC NEMA5-15 plugs and advertise the fact far and wide. Include the cost of maintenance with the cost of electricity and go with it. If a garage owner is feeling perky, add 10% J1772 boxes for those that are going to be in for less than a day. Charging a bit extra for those slots should keep the people who don't need the faster charging out of the "fast charge" spaces.

OK: Let's stop arguing about which car or that has or doesn't have a funky connector and dive into the economics of the thing. Remember: The idea is to future-proof this installation so, when the World Becomes BEV, the Airports (or whatever) of the World will be Ready.

Did I miss something? Speak up now.

 

[gnuarm]

OK. So, we got this more or less centered on my first comment on this thread, which people have gotten away from.

Use case: Long term parking lots. Minimum stay: 8 hours. Maximum stay: a number of days.

Options:

• A: 120 VAC NEMA5-15 or NEMA5-20 socket in all, or nearly all parking lot stalls. BEV/Plug-In Hybrid owners would bring their own, "EVSE" for Level 1, be it a Tesla Mobile Connector, or whatever Ford/GM/Volvo/Nissan/whoever supplies for the purpose, plug in and go to town.
• B: 240 VAC NEMA-style sockets for L2 charging. Again, BEV/Plug-In Hybrid owners would bring their own "EVSE", but for Level 2 this time.
• C: 240 VAC "EVSE" boxes, like Tesla Wall Connectors or (what seems like an infinite number of) other Wall Connectors, mostly using J1772.

Pluses, minuses, and issues:

• Compatibility:
  • Car owners:
    • Type A: Most have the EVSE to do it or, unfortunately in Tesla's case, has to buy the Mobile Connector
    • Type B: Problem is that there's a large number of 240 VAC types. Teslas used to come with NEMA14-50s, but those are buried in the other types, at the same amperage even, all over the map.
    • Type C: Everybody's got a J1772. In the long term, like ten years out, J1772 may get phased out in favor of NACS, since NACS will be native to cars and can do 240 VAC.
  • Garage owners: Not really an issue for them; this whole discussion is what would be best for them.
• Cost
  • Car Owners:
    • Type A: If they don't have it (looking at you, Tesla), they'll have to buy it. A couple of hundred bucks. Seems like everybody else gets 'em gratis.
    • Type B: Given the large number of different connectors, whichever one a garage owner picks, a medium double-digit percentage of their customer base is going to have to buy hardware. A hundred bucks or so.
    • Type C: Everybody has a J1772 or (much later) will have NACS. Current BEV/Plug-in Hybrid might have to buy a NACS->J1772 down the road a bit.
  • Garage owners:
    • Type A wins, hands down. Outdoor NEMA5-15/20 are a dime a dozen, relatively speaking. Might have to have One Breaker Per Outlet, which raises costs, but all the other options (Type B, Type C) are the same in that regard. Note that maintenance costs might be an issue, but it's a lower power (less current) type connector, so, dunno. Comments?
    • Type B: More expensive because relatively higher power connectors are more expensive, especially if they're going to get plugged in/out a lot. There have been complaints around these parts about cheapie NEMA14-50s not lasting very long: For a parking lot full of the things, any wear-out issues would be an issue.
    • Type C: Most expensive, because the Box Has Electronics. Wall Connectors are $450 or so a pop; 32A non-managed boxes (i.e., not Chargepoint et. al.) are going to be in that range. The managed ones where people have to Pay Up.. the users won't like it, the usage rate (i.e., # of cars a day) is going to be dead low, so the managed guys won't make money on the deal. As far as maintenance goes: The more electronics one throws into a box, any box, the bigger the FIT rate, fact of life. So, a garage with a couple of thousand or five thousand parking places is likely to have a Failure Per Day, which means having to hire or pay someone to Do All That Repair. More costs. Comments?
• Reliability
  • Type A, Type B: As good as a wall socket gets. Type A sockets can be bought that take a lot of use. But they're generally cheap to replace. Type B costs more on replacement costs, not sure about the wear rates.
  • Type C: J1772s connectors are built to take a lot of use, same for (eventual) NACS. But the electronics raises the FIT rate, so a J1772/NACS box that goes bad needs relatively expensive repair. Comments?
• Feature/Charge Rate:
  • Type A: For an eight-hour stint, one is going to get maybe 40 miles. For several days, the cars are going to get charged. Not fast.
  • Type B: An eight-hour stint or less will get the car charged. On a 32A circuit (pretty common), 8 hours adds 256 miles to most Teslas and probably roughly that for everybody.
  • Type C: Same as B, except that the cost of the EVSE is on the garage owner,

Conclusion: Fill up a parking lot with 120 VAC NEMA5-15 plugs and advertise the fact far and wide. Include the cost of maintenance with the cost of electricity and go with it. If a garage owner is feeling perky, add 10% J1772 boxes for those that are going to be in for less than a day. Charging a bit extra for those slots should keep the people who don't need the faster charging out of the "fast charge" spaces.

OK: Let's stop arguing about which car or that has or doesn't have a funky connector and dive into the economics of the thing. Remember: The idea is to future-proof this installation so, when the World Becomes BEV, the Airports (or whatever) of the World will be Ready.

Did I miss something? Speak up now.

Yes, you missed completely, what I am talking about. You have done an absurd data dump to discuss a simple point. What you discuss ignores the specific option I am suggesting, adding 120V EVSE to the long term parking. Tesla doesn't even provide the EVSE cable with the car anymore.

BTW, why do you say long term parking is 8 hour minimum? In my experience, while long term parking may save a little in a day or two of parking, the additional hassle of transportation between the parking lot and the terminal means very few people will use long term parking until they are using it for three or more days. It's just not worth the trouble.

 

[Tronguy]

Yes, you missed completely, what I am talking about. You have done an absurd data dump to discuss a simple point. What you discuss ignores the specific option I am suggesting, adding 120V EVSE to the long term parking. Tesla doesn't even provide the EVSE cable with the car anymore.

BTW, why do you say long term parking is 8 hour minimum? In my experience, while long term parking may save a little in a day or two of parking, the additional hassle of transportation between the parking lot and the terminal means very few people will use long term parking until they are using it for three or more days. It's just not worth the trouble.

Your first post:

I often park at the long term parking at an airport. I find level 1 charging would be perfect so I could leave the car, and have it topped off when I return. Level 1 charging uses very little power, so many of them can be installed without a massive connection to the grid.

When I've tried to talk to people who would be involved in this sort of decision, they seem to have no understanding of what level 1 means, or why it would be very easy to provide.

How can this be promoted?

Right. Level 1 charging, which is 120 VAC charging. Takes a while to charge at 3-5 Miles of Charge per Hour.

Your suggestion: Whit should be in a parking lot at an airport. Um. That's long term parking.

So, what did I dive into? Economic benefits for the people providing the sockets.

What did people discuss? Anything but economic benefits. Um. How am I off-topic?

 

[gnuarm]

Your first post:

Right. Level 1 charging, which is 120 VAC charging. Takes a while to charge at 3-5 Miles of Charge per Hour.

Your suggestion: Whit should be in a parking lot at an airport. Um. That's long term parking.

So, what did I dive into? Economic benefits for the people providing the sockets.

What did people discuss? Anything but economic benefits. Um. How am I off-topic?

I never said you were "off topic". I said "you missed completely, what I am talking about".

You continue to not read what I'm writing, but instead, trying to justify what you want to talk about.

OK, fine. Talk about what you want. Enjoy.

 

[ucmndd]

I think you exaggerate the Tesla vampire drain. Things like sentry mode and cabin over heat aren't really part of the vampire drain anymore than connecting a power tool to the 12V accessory outlet would be. Otherwise, there is very little drain.

If that "power tool" consumed ~300 watts continuously like Sentry mode does (because it keeps the car awake), then yeah, I suppose you'd be right.

 

[brkaus]

There is an airport lot near me that has j1772 charging. I believe they are shared 6kW units (two hoses each) The lot doesn’t charge anything extra. They are always full, so not useful (imho) if I was really counting in it. Just grabbed by the people that want to save a buck and get free juice.

Luckily, the one time I actually needed it there was a spot available. I was driving in from out of town and racing to my flight. It was great to come back to a full car that got me home. But now that EVs are more popular, I just don’t see any of those spots available.

Anyway, if I was a travel lot owner (airport, cruise, long distance trains), my initial move would be to put in a row of industrial 5-20 outlets and sell a $5-10 up-charge ticket to place on the dash at the entry gate if using those spots. That’s going to be the common adapter. 6-15/20 outlets would be useless to most folks. And the cost of wiring for 14-50 outlets would be much higher.

If there was some reasonable interest and that payment model worked, I’d replace the outlets (or at least some of them) with unmetered j1772 evse devices. Still low power, but perhaps 15a 240v. Keep the cost low I. Wiring and device cost.

I’d assume on average I’d make some money on a ~ $10 premium. I’d assume some would take more, some less. Lots of people that just like to stay plugged in.

 

[Genie]

On my next flight I would love to find long term parking near Seatac with L1. I only need to cover the parasitic losses, not ‘fill the tank’.
For short term airport parking I wouldn’t need anything and for long term parking L2 or DCFC would be overkill.
For non-airport parking such as hourly or daily rate, L2 makes sense to get some charge in while shopping etc.
Same with lots or garages where apartment residents typically park pvernight.

 

[gnuarm]

There is an airport lot near me that has j1772 charging. I believe they are shared 6kW units (two hoses each) The lot doesn’t charge anything extra. They are always full, so not useful (imho) if I was really counting in it. Just grabbed by the people that want to save a buck and get free juice.

It's not just about "free juice". When I drive to the airport, it's at a distance that puts me around 10% on reaching home. So I want to charge somewhere on one leg or the other to feel more confident. There's also various issues that will use a bit of the battery or cause performance issues, such as cold weather. If the car is plugged in, I can activate the battery warmer just before I get on the plane and have a battery that is up to temperature when I arrive at the parking lot. Level 1 charging would be adequate for this.

Luckily, the one time I actually needed it there was a spot available. I was driving in from out of town and racing to my flight. It was great to come back to a full car that got me home. But now that EVs are more popular, I just don’t see any of those spots available.

So, it's not all the parking spaces, just a few?

Anyway, if I was a travel lot owner (airport, cruise, long distance trains), my initial move would be to put in a row of industrial 5-20 outlets and sell a $5-10 up-charge ticket to place on the dash at the entry gate if using those spots. That’s going to be the common adapter. 6-15/20 outlets would be useless to most folks. And the cost of wiring for 14-50 outlets would be much higher.

This would result in a number of EV drivers not being able to use this charging.

If there was some reasonable interest and that payment model worked, I’d replace the outlets (or at least some of them) with unmetered j1772 evse devices. Still low power, but perhaps 15a 240v. Keep the cost low I. Wiring and device cost.

Why 15A, 240V? That's only twice the power of a 120V charger. It misses some cost savings on the demand charge while adding very little. Long term parking is not used by people parking for a day or two. The difference in cost is small for a short stay and the short term parking is typically much more convenient. So people mostly don't use long term parking unless their trip is longer. In that case, 15A, 120V is perfectly adequate, and saves the money for the operator.

I’d assume on average I’d make some money on a ~ $10 premium. I’d assume some would take more, some less. Lots of people that just like to stay plugged in.

Depends on the cost of electricity.