Pure BEV Dogma

[flankspeed8]

The Mirai is clearly a Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle, and yes it matters how the energy is stored. A HFCV is a completely different animal than an EV, with completely different infrastructure requirements and safety issues. There is a reason Musk calls them "fool cells". They aren't EV's.

I think the EV genre is bigger than just BEV. That is why there are terms like EV, PHEV, FCEV, BEV, EREV, etc. What if for example BMW built at 200 mile range electric car, but included a small petroleum generator only to be used as an emergency backup for a time where an owner might find themselves stranded? Would that be an EV, a hybrid or something else? Just curious because I think the class of cars in the future is going to be a wide chasm of technologies and mixes hence the generic term EV. I have never referred to the Volt as a BEV because clearly it is not, but since I do 100% of my average daily driving on pure electrons, it seems like it fits the bill of being called whatever subset of EV you would like, but it still is an EV.

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As far as being a fanboy, not everyone is in the Volt Hall of Fame and a former record holder for most EV miles in a day. No need to thank me, your adoration is enough

http://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/2265

kudos...I think that is one of the great things about the Volt, Tesla, Leaf, etc. is that owners are able to achieve accomplishments that were not considered or thought possible by the manufactures. That is why the important thing is getting these cars, a diversity and mix, into real owners hands to see what they can do and adopt accordingly for future models all with the goal of eliminating petro consumption. That is why I think the gen 2 Volt will be such a great success as will the Model 3 as hopefully it will bring EV technology to a new demographic who can't necessarily drop $90k for a BEV.

 

[scottf200]

It is... and this should be taken over to that thread.

I think you meant all of JRP3 post. His post server 0/zero purpose here just like the amount of gas I used this week in my Volt driving numerous places.

 

[scaesare]

What happens when one engages mountain mode when there's no gas present?

Why would one do that?

You had suggested completely removing the gas tank, which prompted me to wonder how the car would behave when attempting to enable a mode that specifically engages the ICE.

 

[JRP3]

I think the EV genre is bigger than just BEV. That is why there are terms like EV, PHEV, FCEV, BEV, EREV, etc.

I think those are all misnomers. Hybrid, PHV, FCV, and EV are more accurate. The original Prius was not a HEV, it was a hybrid. To call it a HEV makes no more sense than to call it a HICEV, hybrid ICE vehicle.

What if for example BMW built at 200 mile range electric car, but included a small petroleum generator only to be used as an emergency backup for a time where an owner might find themselves stranded? Would that be an EV, a hybrid or something else?

Hybrid, but also an unlikely vehicle, I doubt we'll ever see something like that.

Just curious because I think the class of cars in the future is going to be a wide chasm of technologies and mixes hence the generic term EV.

I really don't, I expect there will eventually be a single technology, EV, because it makes the most sense, just as there was only ICE technology for a long time, when it made sense.

I have never referred to the Volt as a BEV because clearly it is not, but since I do 100% of my average daily driving on pure electrons, it seems like it fits the bill of being called whatever subset of EV you would like, but it still is an EV.

This is the old "use dictates definition" argument, which simply is not correct. If I use a wrench as a hammer most of the time, it's still a wrench. If I have a short commute and only use electricity with a plugin Prius that does not make it an EV, just as if I never plug in a Volt and use only gas it does not become an ICE. It's always a hybrid.

I think you meant all of JRP3 post.

I agree, along with all the other posts arguing the other side of the argument, (though I still strongly object to the title of that thread as misleading and inaccurate, which was created by a Volt owning moderator at the time, unsurprisingly). I did originally state that there was a thread for discussing this topic.

 

[ggr]

OH, please take this to the Dogma thread so I can ignore it.

 

[ggies07]

HEY!

Does the Volt have an engine and rely on gas after the battery is depleted? It's a simple question. Would you call it a hybrid then? I know I would......

 

[JRP3]

His post server 0/zero purpose here just like the amount of gas I used this week in my Volt driving numerous places.

Seriously, why buy a hybrid if you never use the ICE?

 

[qwk]

Seriously, why buy a hybrid if you never use the ICE?

So you can try to convince the folks on message boards that the Volt is an EV. Buying a Volt and not using the ICE makes very little sense to me also.

 

[dsm363]

GM Chevy Volt

So you can try to convince the folks on message boards that the Volt is an EV. Buying a Volt and not using the ICE makes very little sense to me also.

The Volt is a very nice transition car. If someone rarely use gas then kudos to them. It still doesn't change the definition of the car from being a hybrid to an EV. It might effectively function as an EV with certain owners who don't drive over 50 miles in a day or have time to charge to extend that but it's still a hybrid. That said these posts will be moved to the Dogma thread.

 

[Drucifer]

Seriously, why buy a hybrid if you never use the ICE?

That is a good and legitimate question.

When I got the Volt, I had range anxiety and some level of concern regarding the adoption of new technology in my life - for my only car.

By my calculations before I got the car (which happened before Tesla Model S was shipping, except founders), I expected to use 3-4 gallons a month vs. the approx 35-40 in my Saab.

I was surprised that with watching the kW meter, changing my freeway speed from avg. 75 to max 63 mph and a few other changes (less heat in winter etc.) I could eliminate my use of gas from April to October (except for 0.03 gallons every 6 weeks for required engine maintenance runs), and use about 1-2 gallons a month in the colder months (Dec-Feb).

Arguably, I should have gotten a Leaf. But if you told me that before I had the experience with the Volt, I would not have believed you.

 

[flankspeed8]

Seriously, why buy a hybrid if you never use the ICE?

What other options are there? What if I don't like the styling of the Leaf or want to suffer extreme range anxiety in the winter here in MN? The Volt offers peace of mind that would be impossible with current BEV's on the market. I am able to drive pure EV over 90% of the time. Sounds like a good choice to me. At the time I bought the Volt, I was not willing to drop $100k to drive pure EV on the gravel roads of Dakota County for an average of 25 miles a day. Remember, up until a couple of months ago, there was only a single Super Charger in the state. This is why the Volt makes sense for many and should be applauded and not get parsed over subjective semantics.

Now if we can please get this thread back on track...The Volt had a great month. Inventory for Gen 1 is down to about a month's worth and will soon be gone. The rest of the country will not get a chance to get a Gen 2 until the 2017's start to ship in the spring. From initial reports, GM under promised and over delivered with the exception in my opinion of 3.6kwh charging, no change in ERDTT threshold and for some bizarre reason leaving off Homelink. I expect these could be fixed in future years pretty easy. Not as easy a Tesla which can be improved incrementally over the air. That is a trend that I hope other OEM's will adapt, but they will be fighting their dealers and service centers over that. Will be interesting to see what comes to market first for a 200 mile range mainstream BEV....Model 3, Bolt, next Gen Leaf, or whatever Kia may have up their sleeve.

 

[JRP3]

That is a good and legitimate question.

When I got the Volt, I had range anxiety and some level of concern regarding the adoption of new technology in my life - for my only car.

That's a great reason to buy a hybrid, you made the right choice at the time. People mistake my argument, thinking I'm against hybrids. They are the right choice for many people. I'm only against calling them EV's when actual EV's have certain aspects that are inherently different from hybrids, and are why people choose hybrids over EV's.

What other options are there? What if I don't like the styling of the Leaf or want to suffer extreme range anxiety in the winter here in MN? The Volt offers peace of mind that would be impossible with current BEV's on the market.

Exactly, the Volt and other hybrids are very different vehicles than EV's, and as I say there are good reasons to choose a Volt or other hybrid instead of an EV. Hybrids allow the continued use of the existing gas station infrastructure, EV's do not. The Volt is just as capable using it's ICE as it is using it's electric drive, which means it's no more an EV than it is an ICE. I think most of you arguing that it's an EV would not want it to be called an ICE. Plugin hybrid seems like the most accurate and descriptive term.

 

[dhrivnak]

Because sometimes you need to 5ake the car outside the city.

 

[gregincal]

It's the best selling plug-in hybrid, not the best selling EV.

It's the best selling plug in car, full stop. After all the Model S is simply a plug in car as well.

 

[Breezy]

Volt owners know what we mean. The Volt's an EV with an engine onboard. Either you understand that or you don't.

Technically the Volt is a hybrid, a plug-in hybrid, a plug-in series-parallel hybrid, and an EREV.

Whatev. I drove to work on electricity. I'll drive home on electricity. Tomorrow I'll do the same.

 

[stopcrazypp]

By using your definition, the Prius is by far the best selling EV on the market.

So no matter what the definition is, it's simply not correct. It's the best selling plug-in hybrid, not the best selling EV.

(Also, Volts still periodically run the engine even if you drive 0 miles on gas, so you haven't been running purely on electrons. You'll eventually need to refill with gas in 100% battery mode).

Considering the Prius Plug In only sold 91 units last month, it is not the best selling anything.... Well, since there has to be some concrete definition of a plug in versus EV, I guess I will leave it to the government...My Volt qualified me for a $7500 Fed tax credit, how much does a Model S qualify for? How about a Prius Plug In? The answer is $7500 and $2500 respectively. Looks like the Volt and Model S have more in common than the Prius from a government classification stand point...The Volt may not be an EV by some Tesla owner standards. I can live with that.

I think the EV genre is bigger than just BEV. That is why there are terms like EV, PHEV, FCEV, BEV, EREV, etc. What if for example BMW built at 200 mile range electric car, but included a small petroleum generator only to be used as an emergency backup for a time where an owner might find themselves stranded? Would that be an EV, a hybrid or something else? Just curious because I think the class of cars in the future is going to be a wide chasm of technologies and mixes hence the generic term EV. I have never referred to the Volt as a BEV because clearly it is not, but since I do 100% of my average daily driving on pure electrons, it seems like it fits the bill of being called whatever subset of EV you would like, but it still is an EV.

This runs full circle back to the original argument. If you use a definition of EV that includes EV, PHEV, FCEV, BEV, EREV, (you omitted HEV), that means the EV = electric drive. Under that definition a non-plug-in Prius is an EV. That is why people responded to you that under your definition, the Prius is the best selling EV in this time period, not the Volt.

So far I have seen 4 definitions of EV:
1) "electric drive": includes PHEV, FCEV, BEV, HEV, EREV, etc
2) "plug-in": includes PHEV, BEV, EREV
3) "electric car": BEV
4) EREV + BEV only

The definitions for #1-3 are commonly used and accepted (I should note that the "EREV" term is not a technical term). The #4 definition seems to be insisted on mainly by GM and Volt owners (and perhaps i3 REx owners, but I haven't had much interaction with them). That seems like a form of "dogma" to me if the #3 definition can be seen as "dogma".

 

[dsm363]

Volt owners know what we mean. The Volt's an EV with an engine onboard. Either you understand that or you don't.

Technically the Volt is a hybrid, a plug-in hybrid, a plug-in series-parallel hybrid, and an EREV.

Whatev. I drove to work on electricity. I'll drive home on electricity. Tomorrow I'll do the same.

Which is the way to look at it I think. The need to call it a pure EV (even if you basically only drive on electricity) when it had a ICE generator on board doesn't make sense to me. That may be the way it functions though which is great.

 

[JRP3]

Technically the Volt is a hybrid, .....

So what is so wrong with calling it exactly what it is, without confusing the issue? What is gained by talking in code that only Volt owners understand?

 

[Drucifer]

Well, the organization "Plug In America", pretty well defines the line based on if it has a plug. Seems simple (possibly overly simple for this thread, however).

http://www.pluginamerica.org/

 

[stopcrazypp]

Well, the organization "Plug In America", pretty well defines the line based on if it has a plug. Seems simple (possibly overly simple for this thread, however).

http://www.pluginamerica.org/

Yes, and the term they use is "plug-in" when they do that. When they use "EV" they are talking about BEVs (for example in their most recent article):
http://www.pluginamerica.org/drivers-seat/do-ev-drivers-ever-get-stranded

However, even with a definition of EV that includes anything with a plug (I have see such a definition used by some), that would include the PiP. It seems only Volt owners like to use a definition that includes the Volt, but excludes the PiP.