Pure BEV Dogma

[brianman]

Volt owners know what we mean. The Volt's an EV with an engine onboard. Either you understand that or you don't.

The Volt is also an ICE with a battery onboard. No?

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So far I have seen 4 definitions of EV:
1) "electric drive": includes PHEV, FCEV, BEV, HEV, EREV, etc
2) "plug-in": includes PHEV, BEV, EREV
3) "electric car": BEV
4) EREV + BEV only

You forgot EVER.

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Well, the organization "Plug In America", pretty well defines the line based on if it has a plug. Seems simple (possibly overly simple for this thread, however).
http://www.pluginamerica.org/

Can you be more specific in your linkage where they define "EV"?

 

[dsm363]

The Volt is a very good car that in the right circumstances can be driven in 100% EV mode. Why get upset about the accurate technical term of if its an EV or a plug-in hybrid? The fact that you are able to operate entirely in one mode doesn't remove the fact you are carrying around an ICE.

 

[Krugerrand]

The Volt is a very good car that in the right circumstances can be driven in 100% EV mode. Why get upset about the accurate the technical term of if its an EV or a plug-in hybrid? The fact that you are able to operate entirely in one mode doesn't remove the fact you are carrying around an ICE.

Since we are fighting an uphill battle to educate the masses about EVs in general and specifically, I think terminology does matter. If we can't get it right 'here' (on this forum), then how do we expect everyone else without this singular interest to get it right AND understand all that goes with EVs?

Education is of vital importance. You know this having been quite involved in the whole motor power vs horsepower thread and what that all means in terms of EVs vs ICEs etc., etc., etc.,

 

[brianman]

Since we are fighting an uphill battle to educate the masses about EVs in general and specifically, I think terminology does matter. If we can't get it right 'here' (on this forum), then how do we expect everyone else without this singular interest to get it right AND understand all that goes with EVs?

Education is of vital importance. You know this having been quite involved in the whole motor power vs horsepower thread and what that all means in terms of EVs vs ICEs etc., etc., etc.,

I hear that the Volt motor has "a trillion motor horsepower" if you plug it into a bank of superchargers directly. I bet they could sell a lot of cars if they put that in the official specs on the website and then just have the CEO talk about the "trillion horsepower Volt" on the late night circuit.

 

[Krugerrand]

I hear that the Volt motor has "a trillion motor horsepower" if you plug it into a bank of superchargers directly. I bet they could sell a lot of cars if they put that in the official specs on the website and then just had the CEO talk about the trillion horsepower Volt.

I heard the same thing but it was a bajillion motor horsepower AND it (the car) would light up like a Christmas tree.

 

[Breezy]

So what is so wrong with calling it exactly what it is, without confusing the issue? What is gained by talking in code that only Volt owners understand?

There's nothing wrong with calling it a hybrid. Nothing at all. Nothing wrong with calling it a PEV, a PHV, a PHEV or an EREV either. Some people may not like those terms. I happen to think EREV is practical shorthand for plug-in hybrid with full performance in initial EV mode.

The Volt is also an ICE with a battery onboard. No?

I guess. There is no shame in there being an ICE onboard. I'm not sure why some people assume there is. Any Volt owner who explains the car to someone says something like "it goes X miles on the battery then the gas engine kicks in if you need to go further."

 

[brianman]

I heard the same thing but it was a bajillion motor horsepower AND it (the car) would light up like a Christmas tree.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2012/11/gary-cards-electric-christmas-tree-made-of-vauxhall-ampera-parts-for-the-finale-of-the-vauxhall-ampera-season-1354198995.jpg

 

[Drucifer]

The Volt is also an ICE with a battery onboard. No?

A Volt can run with no gas in the tank. It cannot run without a battery with a minimum SOC.

So - A Volt is an EV with a range extending ICE onboard.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I hear that the Volt motor has "a trillion motor horsepower" if you plug it into a bank of superchargers directly. I bet they could sell a lot of cars if they put that in the official specs on the website and then just have the CEO talk about the "trillion horsepower Volt" on the late night circuit.

This is very off-topic and clearly a joke, but I have seen similar implications by others about Tesla's motor power rating. The motor power rating takes into account the voltage and thermal limitations of the motor, as well as the latest motor control firmware being used. It is not an arbitrary number. So no, you will not see a "trillion hp" rating just from plugging in a bank of superchargers into it directly. The rating would remain the same.

 

[Drucifer]

The Volt is a very good car that in the right circumstances can be driven in 100% EV mode. Why get upset about the accurate technical term of if its an EV or a plug-in hybrid? The fact that you are able to operate entirely in one mode doesn't remove the fact you are carrying around an ICE.

With the Model S, I am carrying around about 65 kWh of batteries I don't use 90% of the time. If we are in the "90% of the time zone", is it any different that I am carrying around 500 pounds of ICE vs 500 pounds of LiON cells?

That makes the Tesla Model S a commuter EV with a battery pack range extender.

 

[brianman]

This is very off-topic and clearly a joke, but I have seen similar implications by others about Tesla's motor power rating. The motor power rating takes into account the voltage and thermal limitations of the motor, as well as the latest motor control firmware being used. It is not an arbitrary number. So no, you will not see a "trillion hp" rating just from plugging in a bank of superchargers into it directly. The rating would remain the same.

I didn't say Tesla would do that, but what's to stop Chevy from doing it? The feedback so far (from some of TMC and apparently the industry) is: motor power can be arbitrarily expressed with no consequences.

 

[qwk]

There's nothing wrong with calling it a hybrid. Nothing at all. Nothing wrong with calling it a PEV, a PHV, a PHEV or an EREV either. Some people may not like those terms. I happen to think EREV is practical shorthand for plug-in hybrid with full performance in initial EV mode.



I guess. There is no shame in there being an ICE onboard. I'm not sure why some people assume there is. Any Volt owner who explains the car to someone says something like "it goes X miles on the battery then the gas engine kicks in if you need to go further."

I agree, but the problem is that some people that bought the Volt instead of a real EV, don't want to feel somehow inferior, and under no circumstances want to be grouped in with hybrids like the Prius. I get that for an only car, from a usability perspective, the Volt is a better car than all other offerings except Tesla. The Tesla is expensive, and so the only sensible choice for those people is a Volt. It's a very similar scenario to buying a knockoff vs. The real thing. One is much cheaper than the other, but there is a reason why........

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With the Model S, I am carrying around about 65 kWh of batteries I don't use 90% of the time. If we are in the "90% of the time zone", is it any different that I am carrying around 500 pounds of ICE vs 500 pounds of LiON cells?

That makes the Tesla Model S a commuter EV with a battery pack range extender.

It's very different, because one car doesn't use gas EVER, the other one does, if you use them both for their intended purpose.

 

[Takumi]

Smells like a lot of Tesla sensitivity to me. Why can't you just be satisfied that there is a car that is reachable to more of the mass market that allows people to do in some cases 90-95% of their driving on pure electrons? Why do you have to attack and distort?

Actually the opposite, not attacking and distorting. More like cleaning up FUD (I clean up after my 1 year old enough as it is) and clarifying. As mentioned GM has already been caught in their lie. I just don't want to have to explain to more people on what EREV means. I've simplified it to simply saying, "Volt is a hybrid that can run on the battery alone for 40 miles."

To clarify where I'm coming from, I used to be a Cadillac mechanic so friends and family and their associates ask me about anything car related. I'm not against GM or the Volt. In fact, GM got me interested in EVs with their Impact/EV1 & Sunraycer. Volt was one of the cars I looked at before settling on the LEAF. Discounted it because of it's non-existent center rear seat as well as it could still kill me in my garage if I forgot to turn it off. Yes, I leave the car ON for the purpose of having the HVAC running while my child is napping when we arrive at home.

We can keep on going, but a lot of points I'd make have already been mentioned here so many times.

Let me ask you this: Does the Volt's behaviour already have SAE terminology to describe it before GM's marketing of "EREV"? Did "EREV" clear or distort? From my POV, it seems it just distorted.

 

[dsm363]

PHEV-X (X=number of full power EV miles before going to generator) seems a more reasonable way to write this. We know from this it's a plug in car, it's a hybrid of some kind, and that it can go X miles in 100% EV mode before the backup kicks in.

 

[Takumi]

I think those are all misnomers. Hybrid, PHV, FCV, and EV are more accurate. The original Prius was not a HEV, it was a hybrid. To call it a HEV makes no more sense than to call it a HICEV, hybrid ICE vehicle.

So true! When did the terms HEV, PHEV, FCEV, etc. come out? Before or after Tesla?

 

[TexasEV]

Actually the opposite, not attacking and distorting. More like cleaning up FUD (I clean up after my 1 year old enough as it is) and clarifying. As mentioned GM has already been caught in their lie. I just don't want to have to explain to more people on what EREV means. I've simplified it to simply saying, "Volt is a hybrid that can run on the battery alone for 40 miles."

To clarify where I'm coming from, I used to be a Cadillac mechanic so friends and family and their associates ask me about anything car related. I'm not against GM or the Volt. In fact, GM got me interested in EVs with their Impact/EV1 & Sunraycer. Volt was one of the cars I looked at before settling on the LEAF. Discounted it because of it's non-existent center rear seat as well as it could still kill me in my garage if I forgot to turn it off. Yes, I leave the car ON for the purpose of having the HVAC running while my child is napping when we arrive at home.

We can keep on going, but a lot of points I'd make have already been mentioned here so many times.

Let me ask you this: Does the way the Volt behave already have SAE terminology to describe it before GM's marketing of "EREV"? Did "EREV" clear or distort? From my POV, it seems it just distorted.

I agree. GM came up with the the term "Extended range EV" to get the cachet (and tax credits) of producing an EV while continuing to put an ICE in every car it builds. It doesn't matter who turns what-- if it has both a battery and an ICE, it's a hybrid. If it also has a plug, it's a plug-in hybrid.

 

[flankspeed8]

Since we are fighting an uphill battle to educate the masses about EVs in general and specifically, I think terminology does matter. If we can't get it right 'here' (on this forum), then how do we expect everyone else without this singular interest to get it right AND understand all that goes with EVs?

Education is of vital importance. You know this having been quite involved in the whole motor power vs horsepower thread and what that all means in terms of EVs vs ICEs etc., etc., etc.,

The problem with this statement is that you are essentially saying that the members of this board, who generally have a certain mindset and opinion as well as an understandably high regard for their very expensive long range BEV, are the ones who determine what the terminology is and will guard that zealously to conform with your point of view. In a sense, I am doing the same. Who is right? Who decides? I made that point that for tax credit implication, the Volt and the Tesla are in the same category, whereas the Plug-in Prius is not. Also, people here are quick to say that the Plug In Prius and the Volt are in the same category, which is not true. There are many fundamental differences. The point is this is a big tent and there are many flavors of EV technology.

But I understand the confusion and the angst among many...I am a Type 1 Diabetic, which is an auto-immune disease. Many people are Type 2 Diabetics, which is more of an insulin resistance, which is a completely different disease in how it occurs and treated, yet we are all called Diabetics and there is often certain assumptions that are made which drive Type 1's (juvenile) crazy as the pharmacology and pathology could not be much more different than Type 2 (Adult-onset). Words, definitions and conventions matter, but sometimes they can not be so clearly defined as we would personally like.

 

[flankspeed8]

For whatever personal reason, member qwk appears to be very anti Volt and is very condescending towards other non-Tesla cars. Maybe he's butthurt over something.

It would be nice if they who speak like that understood that attitudes like this play into the perception of elitism and condescension that does nothing to advance the goal that I am sure we are all striving for, to minimize and eventually eliminate using petroleum products for our personal transportation fleet. Clearly the technology is not there yet at a level that is attainable by the masses.


But to be fair, I guess this is their board.

 

[Takumi]

The facts decide what is what, not some Tesla or Volt fan/owner. The fact is that EV's have no tailpipes. There isn't really anything to argue over. I get that some Volt owners are butthurt over their inferior product, but one gets what they pay for....

No need for that. The Volt excels in certain areas. It has its uses. People can buy products according to their needs. One of my "beefs" with the Volt is that eventually I will be called when it will eventually need that oil change or any of the other service needs an ICE needs. I hate ICEs (too many health deteriorating substances). Yes, health factors a lot in my decisions as I really hate it when someone is sick. It affects the sick as well as those around them.

 

[qwk]

For whatever personal reason, member qwk appears to be very anti Volt and is very condescending towards other non-Tesla cars. Maybe he's butthurt over something.

Probably because in my opinion, the Impact was a much better engineered car than the Volt. A company doesn't get to go backwards and get praise from me. There is no other EV other than Tesla that is able to replace a primary car for most people I know. I don't mind reality, and lately this forum needs a huge dose of it. The elitist comments are just silly. There is nothing elitist about the realities of life. I get that Tesla cars are not cheap, but if one wants to not use ANY gas whatsoever, they really don't have much choice as to what car they buy, unless they live in a city and never travel by road.

I for one believe that vehicles like the Volt inhibit adoption of electric cars, because they still rely on gasoline, and could become a long stop-gap to electric cars. This is what the attitude of the current carmakers is, whether anybody likes it or not. Anything that they manufacture without a tailpipe will always have compromises. Nothing personal, it's just their business model.