Pure BEV Dogma

[scaesare]

It only clutches the ICE in if the ICE is running in range extended mode. The ICE is never clutched in if there is sufficient SOC for the drive mode the car is currently in. The fact that the ICE can be clutched in under certain circumstances changes nothing - as it is done to only avoid the energy losing trip of "Engine - Generator - Battery - Motor" and bypass the mechanical-electrical-mechanical conversion when it reduces efficiency.

That's what parallel hybrids do. It's what makes them "parallel" (2 power sources providing locomotive traction to the wheels), and "hybrid" (a combination of motor and ICE as those power sources).

Series hybrids (as the Volt was originally billed), don't do this.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I never cease to be amazed at people who draw a critically important distinction between whether the Volt is a parallel (or series-parallel hybrid) versus a series hybrid. Folks, it's a hybrid either way when it's burning gasoline after the battery no longer has usable charge.

GM was the one who drove that distinction in a bid to differentiate their car from the Prius and used that as the criteria to determine if a car was an "EV" or not. I was active in the GM-Volt site back then and people did make a big deal about it (and also about how the complexity of the Prius gearing was a bad thing). GM also went around in the media correcting them when they referred to the car as a hybrid, so the journalists were very glad to say "I told you so".
For example statements like this: "The Chevrolet Volt is not a hybrid. It is a one-of-a-kind, all-electrically driven vehicle designed and engineered to operate in all climates."

Some articles from when people found out the Volt had a mechanical connection:
http://gm-volt.com/2010/10/11/motor-trend-explains-the-volts-powertrain/
http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/11/shocker-chevy-says-volts-gas-engine-can-power-the-wheels-its/
http://www.wired.com/2010/10/the-chevrolet-volt-isnt-a-true-ev/
http://www.fordinsidenews.com/forum...4-gm-lied-chevy-volt-not-true-ev-edmunds.html
http://jalopnik.com/5661051/how-gm-lied-about-the-electric-car

As for the whole EREV term (as specified in the document GM submitted to SAE), that was an overly convoluted definition that most journalists and the general public did not understand (and still don't today). Series hybrid was very easy to understand and when people found out the Volt was not one, they felt misled.

 

[scaesare]

So you're telling me that you and your buddy would have preferred if GM had built the car without being able to link the engine to the wheels, if it was identical otherwise and ran the engine in all the same modes, with the same EV range but ~10-15% worse gas mileage on the highway - and that you'd consider it more of an EV then?

No, see my other reply. He was disappointed to find out he'd been misled.

I don't understand the logic at all. It's an EV with a built in safety net, and when you use the safety net, I want it to be as efficient and effective as possible, myself.

Sure. And I agree. It just so happens that a parallel-hybrid tramission setup was the most efficient way to achieve that. Nothing wrong with that.

It just is what it is.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Nazis!

 

[scaesare]

LOL. Yes, it's all very bizarre. You might as well ask people how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

I never cease to be amazed at people who draw a critically important distinction between whether the Volt is a parallel (or series-parallel hybrid) versus a series hybrid. Folks, it's a hybrid either way when it's burning gasoline after the battery no longer has usable charge.

People seem to conflate separate issues it seems.

The issue is that cars have an architecture(i.e. how they are designed and what they can do), for their entire envelope of capability. They subsequently have modes that the car may operate in under certain parameters.

Typically a car is characterized by it's architecture, such as gas, diesel, hybrid, BEV, HFCV, etc... Not a mode that it can operate in.

Just because one of those cars has a mode that allows some subset of capability, that is typically not how it's considered. So a Volt that can go 32 of it's 350 mile range in battery-only mode is no more an EV than a Prius that can do 11 miles of it's 300 mile range is. That's one mode that allows a subset of it's operational capability. It's full range of capability is accomplished as a hybrid vehicle as it activates a second power source (in some series or parallel arrangement).

An airplane can ONLY roll on it's wheels if the pilot is careful to keep the airspeed, flap position and ailerons within certain parameters. It's still not a taxi.

 

[qwk]

Inhibit the adoption of electric cars? What are you talking about? People who cannot afford a Tesla can drive a Volt, and experiences how awesome it is to be driving on electric for 40-50 miles. Then they can aspire, save $, to get a full BEV. If you force BEV on the masses, they'll be scared by the lesser range of "affordable" cars like Spark EV, Leaf, Kia Soul. The Volt allows the masses to get a taste of electric driving, while allowing them to use the car in a normal way without range anxiety.

I guess I didn't clarify things enough. When gasoline goes up in price, consumers react accordingly. History shows us that the 70's gas crunch and resulting regulations channeled the consumer to smaller more efficient cars. 30 years later this channel evolved to hybrids, and the existing automakers would like nothing more than to continue that trend. The next step they prefer is to either stay with hybrids or plug in hybrids if they can. Electric cars force them into a completely different business model. This is why all of the EV offerings from anyone other than Tesla suck, and will continue to do so.

If hybrids are good enough, then EV's might not become mainstream for another 30+ years. This Volt leads to Tesla talk is pure sillyness. It might happen every great once in a while, but very few people buy cars with that much of a price difference. Another thing to consider is the fact that a $35k Model 3 is pure fantasy. A quick lesson in Tesla history should sober those who believe that.

IMO, the only way to skip the hybrid distraction is for companies like LG, Samsung ect. to get into car manufacturing, and get rid of the existing business model.

 

[stopcrazypp]

People seem to conflate separate issues it seems.

The issue is that cars have an architecture(i.e. how they are designed and what they can do), for their entire envelope of capability. They subsequently have modes that the car may operate in under certain parameters.

Typically a car is characterized by it's architecture, such as gas, diesel, hybrid, BEV, HFCV, etc... Not a mode that it can operate in...

I think that is why the SAE has not accepted the EREV terminology even though GM has been pushing it so long. It serves no useful purpose as a technical term. As marketing term maybe, but even as a marketing term, it is an overly convoluted definition (designed primarily to fit the Volt in it while excluding the PiP).

 

[Takumi]

He shouldn't be. It is quite a clever design. Gen 2 even more so.

I don't think the disappointment is in how the Volt works. It's more in how he fell for the THE LIE. He feels like an ass for repeating the lie in essence making him a liar. That's why I want to clarify that this "EREV" is GM's marketing speak for hybrid.

GM was the one who drove that distinction in a bid to differentiate their car from the Prius and used that as the criteria to determine if a car was an "EV" or not. I was active in the GM-Volt site back then and people did make a big deal about it (and also about how the complexity of the Prius gearing was a bad thing). GM also went around in the media correcting them when they referred to the car as a hybrid, so the journalists were very glad to say "I told you so".
For example statements like this: "The Chevrolet Volt is not a hybrid. It is a one-of-a-kind, all-electrically driven vehicle designed and engineered to operate in all climates."

Some articles from when people found out the Volt had a mechanical connection:
http://gm-volt.com/2010/10/11/motor-trend-explains-the-volts-powertrain/
http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/11/shocker-chevy-says-volts-gas-engine-can-power-the-wheels-its/
http://www.wired.com/2010/10/the-chevrolet-volt-isnt-a-true-ev/
http://www.fordinsidenews.com/forum...4-gm-lied-chevy-volt-not-true-ev-edmunds.html
http://jalopnik.com/5661051/how-gm-lied-about-the-electric-car

As for the whole EREV term (as specified in the document GM submitted to SAE), that was an overly convoluted definition that most journalists and the general public did not understand (and still don't today). Series hybrid was very easy to understand and when people found out the Volt was not one, they felt misled.

 

[scaesare]

I don't think the disappointment is in how the Volt works. It's more in how he fell for the THE LIE. He feels like an ass for repeating the lie in essence making him a liar. That's why I want to clarify that this "EREV" is GM's marketing speak for hybrid.

Correct.

The reason he was adamant about how the car worked is because of what was advertised, and he was told. He still has them, and enjoys them. He didn't appreciate being misled.

 

[Takumi]

If the battery can be recharged from an external source (regen doesn't count, that's internal) while driving, it's a hybrid. If the car can be moved from a power source other than the battery, it's a hybrid. Thus an EV being pushed by a person: hybrid. An EV being pulled by a horse: hybrid. An EV being dropped from a helicopter: smashed.

Uh, no. An EV being pushed/pulled by a person/horse is an EV being pushed/pulled by a person/horse... akin to an ICEV pushing/pulling an BEV does not make it a hybrid. Now if you put pedaling to charge/move the wheels then it becomes a hybrid. I agree on the helicopter drop though.

 

[Drucifer]

People seem to conflate separate issues it seems.

The issue is that cars have an architecture(i.e. how they are designed and what they can do), for their entire envelope of capability. They subsequently have modes that the car may operate in under certain parameters.

Typically a car is characterized by it's architecture, such as gas, diesel, hybrid, BEV, HFCV, etc... Not a mode that it can operate in.

Just because one of those cars has a mode that allows some subset of capability, that is typically not how it's considered. So a Volt that can go 32 of it's 350 mile range in battery-only mode is no more an EV than a Prius that can do 11 miles of it's 300 mile range is. That's one mode that allows a subset of it's operational capability. It's full range of capability is accomplished as a hybrid vehicle as it activates a second power source (in some series or parallel arrangement).

An airplane can ONLY roll on it's wheels if the pilot is careful to keep the airspeed, flap position and ailerons within certain parameters. It's still not a taxi.

It comes to the primary design of the vehicle. I am not going to argue that the Chevy Volt isn't a hybrid. It is. Now that we all agree it is a hybrid, is it a ICE based hybrid or a EV based hybrid.

For Chevy Volt (answers in parens):

1. Can the vehicle be plugged in to charge the battery? (yes)
2. Can the vehicle operate with no SOC in the battery? (no)
3. Can the vehicle operate with no gas in the tank? (yes)
4. Can the vehicle operate in full range of performance on electricity only, without activating ICE? (yes, up to 101 mph upper limit in all modes)
5. Can the vehicle operate in full range of performance at low SOC with ICE activated? (Volt has slightly diminished performance)
6. Can the vehicle operate indefinitely without ever being charged if gas is added? (yes)
7. What is the EV only range of the Vehicle?

These answers are very different in Ford Fusion/CMax, Prius or all other hybrids (the answer for #4 is no) except for the BMW i3 Rex, the Fisker Karma and of course, Volt's stablemate, the Cadillac ELR. Arguably, the BMW is so compromised in performance under #5 or #6, it's range extender is more of a last resort than something to plan a road trip around (particularly in hilly areas).

So I would give Volt a rating of EREV-38 and PIP a rating of Hybrid-11

So based on the answers to the these questions. On the spectrum of 100% Gas based to 100% EV, Volt is closer to the EV end of that spectrum than Plug-In Prius.

- - - Updated - - -

That's what parallel hybrids do. It's what makes them "parallel" (2 power sources providing locomotive traction to the wheels), and "hybrid" (a combination of motor and ICE as those power sources).

Series hybrids (as the Volt was originally billed), don't do this.

So a Chevy Volt is a Series hybrid BEFORE it is a parallel hybrid, and it is a parallel hybrid under a specific set of circumstances (bottom level of design battery SOC AND speed high enough to clutch in the engine).

Since it is a mouthful to say that Chevy Volt is an electric car for a while and then it is a series hybrid but sometimes a parallel hybrid after that, and the engine can also be used to build SOC in the battery for later use (mountain mode) or the engine can be used to maintain SOC for later use (hold mode) - it is easier to just use the GM term "EREV".

 

[JRP3]

2. Can the vehicle operate with no SOC in the battery? (no)

Can the vehicle operate only on gasoline, without any grid supplied electricity? (yes)
Does the vehicle have much more range only on gasoline than only battery? (yes)
Will the vehicle ever allow the battery SOC to go to zero? (no)

Based on those answers I'd say the Volt is closer to the ICE spectrum than EV, since it can be operated just like a non plugin Prius.

Since EREV means nothing to the general public plugin hybrid is a simple way to convey what the vehicle actually is and how it performs.

 

[Drucifer]

Can the vehicle operate only on gasoline, without any grid supplied electricity? (yes)
Does the vehicle have much more range only on gasoline than only battery? (yes)
Will the vehicle ever allow the battery SOC to go to zero? (no)

Based on those answers I'd say the Volt is closer to the ICE spectrum than EV, since it can be operated just like a non plugin Prius.

Since EREV means nothing to the general public plugin hybrid is a simple way to convey what the vehicle actually is and how it performs.

If you operate it like a non plugin in Prius, you have a heavier vehicle with less interior volume that gets less mpg (38 vs 45), that makes unpleasant noise and vibration. I don't know why anybody would chose to operate the Volt in its secondary mode when you can plug it in and operate it in its primary mode.

Some more questions to finish off my points with this.

What are the horsepower ratings? (149 hp electric, 74 hp gas - BMW i3 Rex even more extreme than this at 170 hp electric and 34 hp gas)

Remove all the gas from the tank and charge the battery - can you drive? (yes)

Remove all the charge from the battery and fill the tank - can you drive? (no)

I rest my case.

 

[JRP3]

Remove all the charge from the battery and fill the tank - can you drive? (no)

Can that be done? (no)

End of story. Let's stick to the real world, where the car can be driven on gasoline alone, and in fact I'm sure some people have probably done just that. The i3 is a different animal since it's a series hybrid with an undersized ICE, I'm quite sure no one would try to use the i3 with only the ICE. At least not more than once.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I think that is why the SAE has not accepted the EREV terminology even though GM has been pushing it so long. It serves no useful purpose as a technical term. As marketing term maybe, but even as a marketing term, it is an overly convoluted definition (designed primarily to fit the Volt in it while excluding the PiP).

Huh? EREV is a useful term.
PHEV raises the question "How electric is it?" and "When will the engine run?"
EREV makes it abundantly clear how electric it is: it acts like a BEV until the battery runs down.
Some people might not care, but there are environmental, maintenance, national security and experiential reasons for caring. The environmental reasons were even given by GM in its original SAE white paper/begging letter/marketecture brochure.

It pees me off that our Volt _isn't_ an EREV due to ERDTT.

And again ...

Nazis!

 

[ZsoZso]

The Volt is a very good plugin-hybrid design. However, calling it (correctly) a plugin-hybrid puts it into the same category as PiP / Ford Fusion etc., a whole fleet of cars that are really just plain ICE-based hybrids with a Plug added mostly for marketing purposes: getting HOV lane stickers, posturing as more green than they really are, i.e. they are bad plugin designs where the plug is really just a facade.

This is the reason why GM and Volt drivers insist on differentiating the Volt as a different category than those other plugin hybrids, and I agree with them. The proper thing would be to call those other cars (PiP and ilk) just plain hybrids, but that does not work because their marketdroids will insist on pointing out that it has a plug - even if its near-useless.

 

[Drucifer]

Can that be done? (no)

End of story. Let's stick to the real world, where the car can be driven on gasoline alone, and in fact I'm sure some people have probably done just that. The i3 is a different animal since it's a series hybrid with an undersized ICE, I'm quite sure no one would try to use the i3 with only the ICE. At least not more than once.

Some people have never plugged in the Volt. Some have never run on gas, except for maintenance mode (The 3/10 of a gallon a year that you must run through the engine to ensure that it still works). You can treat a Volt like a heavy, inefficient Prius all the time. You can also treat it like a Leaf with less range. Or anything in between.

I still will look at it like this in my experience, based on my daily commute (32 miles +/- round trip), which uses gas in neither scenario.

Tesla Model S is a 16 kWh EV car with a 69 kWh battery EV range extender

Chevy Volt is a is a 16 kWh EV car with a gasoline ICE range extender

But that is what it is for me in my use case. YMMV

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

The Volt is a very good plugin-hybrid design. However, calling it (correctly) a plugin-hybrid puts it into the same category as PiP / Ford Fusion etc., a whole fleet of cars that are really just plain ICE-based hybrids with a Plug added mostly for marketing purposes: getting HOV lane stickers, posturing as more green than they really are, i.e. they are bad plugin designs where the plug is really just a facade.

This is the reason why GM and Volt drivers insist on differentiating the Volt as a different category than those other plugin hybrids, and I agree with them. The proper thing would be to call those other cars (PiP and ilk) just plain hybrids, but that does not work because their marketdroids will insist on pointing out that it has a plug - even if its near-useless.

Fortunately, given the change in the hybrid market since the Volt 1, with hybrid being less synonymous with Prius and poor performance, GM is being a lot more relaxed about the H word.

 

[Drucifer]

The Volt is a very good plugin-hybrid design. However, calling it (correctly) a plugin-hybrid puts it into the same category as PiP / Ford Fusion etc., a whole fleet of cars that are really just plain ICE-based hybrids with a Plug added mostly for marketing purposes: getting HOV lane stickers, posturing as more green than they really are, i.e. they are bad plugin designs where the plug is really just a facade.

This is the reason why GM and Volt drivers insist on differentiating the Volt as a different category than those other plugin hybrids, and I agree with them. The proper thing would be to call those other cars (PiP and ilk) just plain hybrids, but that does not work because their marketdroids will insist on pointing out that it has a plug - even if its near-useless.

Again the distinction is the Volt is a BEV based hybrid, not an ICE based hybrid. Please try to get clarity on the distinction, because it is important in this discussion.

Toyota would be really happy if people don't get the difference, and most people don't get the difference.

 

[wws]

The links a few posts back were from 2010 - before the release of the Volt. It is quite understandable that there would be confusion over how the Volt worked at the time. (Heck - look at Tesla today where Model Xs have been delivered and no one knows what the capacity of the on-board charger is...)

As an aside, the Gen 2 Volt is rated 53 miles electric range - substantially better than Gen 1. Also when the gas engine does run, it no longer has the inefficient series hybrid mode. All three hybrid modes (low extended, fixed gear, high extended) are parallel. The fascinating thing to me is how it combines the ICE with the electric motors in low/high extended modes to essentially form an electric CVT. Allows running the ICE at relatively efficient RPMs with the electric motors adding/subtracting TQ as needed.

Our 2016 Volt is only a few days old, but so far since bringing it home, has used 100% electric. In our use case the Gen 1 would have burned some gas by now.