Quitting Autosteer use

[Tam]

...40% less accidents...

From Electrek.co:

"ODI analyzed mileage and airbag deployment data supplied by Tesla for all MY 2014 through 2016 Model S and 2016 Model X vehicles equipped with the Autopilot Technology Package, either installed in the vehicle when sold or through an OTA update, to calculate crash rates by miles traveled prior to and after Autopilot installation."

 

[Tam]

...He certainly isn't driving a Tesla....is he?...

Yes. As an engineer and a scientist he needs to validate Tesla's scientific achievement and yes, he is talking about driving Tesla Autopilot.

The story is here:

Volvo R&D Chief takes swipes at Tesla’s Autopilot, implies Musk is lying about safety

...His ( Volvo's) AP is trying to kill him?

Like Google/Waymo, he does not believe in promoting systems that rely on "handoff/handover" (automation system would give you control or you have to monitor and take over at any time) like autonomous level 2 or 3.

"Handoff/Handover" problem happens in airplane autopilot as the automation would give the control back to human and human got panic and crashed airplanes such as Air France Flight 447 (2009).

Not everyone has the same approach to solve a problem.

Tesla believes human is skillful enough to monitor and override Autopilot at any time.

Google/Waymo and Dr. Peter Mertens do not believe in blaming the human victims (who are not skillful enough to override Autopilot). They prefer to wait and promote full autonomous system that requires no human intervention.

Owners needs to be informed so they can't complain that they didn't know.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Owners needs to be informed so they can't complaint that they didn't know.

What else should Tesla do?

 

[Garlan Garner]

Yes. As an engineer and a scientist he needs to validate Tesla's scientific achievement and yes, he is talking about driving Tesla Autopilot.

Who doesn't expect the competition to swipe at Tesla. That's what they are supposed to do. There is no credibility there to me.

I would be shocked out of my mind if a Volvo Chief ever said.....Tesla has a great thing going on over there.

 

[NerdUno]

We also need to distinguish between a system that is "not fully autonomous" and a system that is downright dangerous. Slapping a beta label on it doesn't give Tesla a blank check in the vehicle safety department.

 

[Garlan Garner]

We also need to distinguish between a system that is "not fully autonomous" and a system that is downright dangerous. Slapping a beta label on it doesn't give Tesla a blank check in the vehicle safety department.

Tesla isn't forcing AP on anyone. People made the same argument when cruse control ( automatic accelerator ) came out. Putting a beta label on anything by any vendor does indeed give all vendors the right to make the driver the responsible party. Volvo, Mercedes and all of them come with warnings all over new cars. Pull down your sun visor on your ICE car and read the big yellow sticker of warning there about glare and such. Yes...labels and warnings do absolve companies of liability.
If you don't understand the warning or have difficulty reading.....then don't use it. That's fine. Turn it off like turning off the radio. I wonder why there aren't threads about not using the radio.

Why do you think there are 25 labels of "use at your own risk" on cheap extension cords? You can chew on them while they are plugged in all you want....but those labels clear the company of any and all liability.



The model S and model X have passed every single test of safety that has ever been presented to it.

5 stars across the board. That's official data.

Tesla Model S Achieves Best Safety Rating of Any Car Ever Tested
Tesla’s Model X earns all-around 5-star safety rating from NHTSA

Name another car with AP that has better safety ratings.
BMW 750i,
Infiniti Q50S,
Mercedes-Benz S65 AMG

These cars have the same Identical warning that Tesla presents when AP gets turned on.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Let me ask a question.

If you get in an accident while driving a Tesla and you are found liable. Who's at fault?

Would it matter if AP was on or off to the insurance company or to the judge? Insurance companies don't offer liability insurance to cars....they insure peoples negligence.

The Driver will ALWAYS be liable until full autonomy.

 

[MXWing]

@teethdood

I am wondering if the Model X actually crossed the line with the other car?

If it didn't and you didn't want to find out, I don't blame you.

There are narrow stretches of I5 under construction going into Los Angeles that have barriers riding on the lane divider. In theory the X should have be able to stay between the lines. I'm too freaked out to try so I just take over for my own peace of mind.

When I last went to Las Vegas AP2 did virtually all the highway driving.

It stayed between the lines without issue. Some of the handling was "rough" at times but not where it would have caused a collision.

The scientist in me would want to go back to that same scretch of road when less busy just to see if I could reproduce the behavior that would make me want to quit one of my top feature assets.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Look folks.

AP is moving forward by almost ALL vendors. Use it or not. Complain or not.

Mercedes is doing it
Volvo is doing it
Infinity is doing it
BMW is doing it
Tesla is doing it
Volkswagen is doing it.

Do you know why they are doing it? It sells cars.

 

[ecarfan]

I don't own an AP capable Tesla (my S is over 3 years old) but was recently visiting my parents and drove their cars on AP for a few hours in total. I was amazed at how good it was. Not perfect. But much improved over the past year. I had no issues.

 

[teethdood]

@Tam
It's good to know the 40% reduction in accidents is a direct comparison between Tesla AP vs Tesla non-AP. I thought it was a comparison between Tesla AP and all other non-AP cars. It wouldn't be a fair comparison in the 2nd scenario.

@MXWing
It definitely crossed the line, rumbles and all. The car on the right side also dodged me. My wife who was next to me confirmed what had happened. It was so out of character for AP because it was a straight stretch of freeway, hence why it startled me so much.

I really like AP and the direction Tesla is going with it. 99.9% of the time it's awesome, but that 0.1% can result in sheer terror sometimes. Most AP failures could be anticipated so it's not so bad. It's those that are unexpected that are scary. I'll keep an eye out for 26.7 and perhaps soon will try AP again.

 

[Garlan Garner]

@Tam
It's good to know the 40% reduction in accidents is a direct comparison between Tesla AP vs Tesla non-AP. I thought it was a comparison between Tesla AP and all other non-AP cars. It wouldn't be a fair comparison in the 2nd scenario.

@MXWing
It definitely crossed the line, rumbles and all. The car on the right side also dodged me. My wife who was next to me confirmed what had happened. It was so out of character for AP because it was a straight stretch of freeway, hence why it startled me so much.

I really like AP and the direction Tesla is going with it. 99.9% of the time it's awesome, but that 0.1% can result in sheer terror sometimes. Most AP failures could be anticipated so it's not so bad. It's those that are unexpected that are scary. I'll keep an eye out for 26.7 and perhaps soon will try AP again.

Really?

 

[Fiddler]

... when your car acts strangely, make a "bug report" using the voice system. Just press the voice command button, say "bug report" and describe the problem. This will put a mark in the vehicle log near the point of the incident, along with a transcription of your comment. Then call the service center, give them the approximate time of the incident. They'll pull logs, find your "bug report", and look for symptoms that will help them diagnose the problem ... Be careful out there!

My AP2 MX tried several wild turns because a poor lane markings. Each time I saw the marking issues and was ready to take the wheel.

@Teethdood, I've never had the hard wild turn with good lane markings. That's scary. Thanks for the warning.

6 months with 10,500 miles and love it. I should learn to use the "bug report"

 

[stopcrazypp]

Yes. As an engineer and a scientist he needs to validate Tesla's scientific achievement and yes, he is talking about driving Tesla Autopilot.

The story is here:

Volvo R&D Chief takes swipes at Tesla’s Autopilot, implies Musk is lying about safety



Like Google/Waymo, he does not believe in promoting systems that rely on "handoff/handover" (automation system would give you control or you have to monitor and take over at any time) like autonomous level 2 or 3.

"Handoff/Handover" problem happens in airplane autopilot as the automation would give the control back to human and human got panic and crashed airplanes such as Air France Flight 447 (2009).

Not everyone has the same approach to solve a problem.

Tesla believes human is skillful enough to monitor and override Autopilot at any time.

Google/Waymo and Dr. Peter Mertens do not believe in blaming the human victims (who are not skillful enough to override Autopilot). They prefer to wait and promote full autonomous system that requires no human intervention.

Owners needs to be informed so they can't complain that they didn't know.

Correction: The Volvo engineer was complaining specifically about level 3 and misclassified Autopilot as such.

Level 2 by definition has no "handoff". The driver is always responsible to monitoring the road. Level 3 is what has hand off.

Volvo definitely has a level 2 product: Pilot Assist and Pilot Assist 2.

 

[animorph]

I'm OK with Autosteer screwing up in the usual ways, it's not all that smart, but suddenly steering into the adjacent lane on a good straight road is something that needs immediate attention and a fix. I haven't read about any thing like this happening before now.

 

[Retired]

Im also on 17.17.4 with an AP2 car. It has performed exceptionally well up until a few days ago.

I had almost exactly the same experience as the OP. Straight road, middle lane of freeway, 65mph, auto lane change disabled, and the car lunged for the left lane with a car beside me. Came within 6 inches or so of the other car but a firm grip on the steering wheel disabled AP before it could finish the maneuver. Note that holding it straight disabled AP. It seriously wanted to turn left.

I do not have auto lane change enabled because I like to give a longer warning with my turn signal before I change lanes. So I change lanes which kicks it out of AP and then I just re-enable.

I am still using it but my attention is more concentrated in similar circumstances.

 

[Tam]

Who doesn't expect the competition to swipe at Tesla. That's what they are supposed to do. There is no credibility there to me.

I would be shocked out of my mind if a Volvo Chief ever said.....Tesla has a great thing going on over there.

I do agree with your view point about competitors' credibility in general but there might be some exceptions.

For example: A praise for Tesla's robust Supercharger infrastructure from competitor Stefan Niemand, Director Electric Battery Vehicles at Audi:

"To avoid long charging breaks during long-distance trips, it is necessary to build up a DC charging infrastructure with an electric power of 350 kW, Niemand demanded. “We need awesome cars and a seamless infrastructure,” he said. Here comes Tesla into play – the competitor has single-handedly established such a high-performance infrastructure. The Audi manager conceded he is impressed by the American manufacturer. “I hate to admit it, but Tesla did everything right”, he said."

 

[kgroschi]

Might be an AP2 issue or a particular problem with your car? I drive about 100 miles a day on AP1 and have almost no issues. Lately I have had to intervene a few more times than before, but nothing even close as severe as you were describing with your X AP2. That sounds scary.

 

[MXWing]

@teethdood

Thanks for sharing your story.

Uncharacteristic is a good disruption of what you described. I have a high confidence level fo AP2 when on a highway with well defined lines and not many sharp turns.

I am wondering if there was an elevation change like a dip that made th AP2 lose its ability to detect lanes for a second? I know it will try to grab lane vision asap to right the ship. You can see more wild behavior on local roads when you cross intersectiona without lane markings.

I am also wondering if the side collision avoidance would of kicked in. If the car would of steered away if it got "too close" to a neighboring car. Do you have an estimate how close you might have been to a collision in feet/inches?
We have no business trying to verify the veracity of that kind of system however.

As a generation precaution I would recommend resting hands lightly on the wheel at all times. This will guard against unexpected lateral movement left to right.

 

[rush6410]

I am an avid Tesla fan, just not a "fundamentalistic" one.
Like I said, I love the Tesla driving experience and would buy it again. I cannot go back to an ICE car. Tesla car without AP is still a Tesla. Loads of people bought Model X/S without EAP/FSD package. At least one other person in this thread also stopped using AP completely. It doesn't make us anti-Tesla.
Elon said that Tesla AP1/AP2 results in at least 40% less accidents than without (I guess by without AP, he meant ICE cars as well). I'm not so sure this statement is true. By virtue of Tesla being expensive, Tesla owners tend to be a bit older and more cautious than a typical driver. This fact alone could skew the "40% less accident" to make it true, and not necessarily the result of having AP.

It was 40% less before AP and after AP tesla vehicles. So the data is correct. It was not Tesla compared to anything else. AP2 has worked good for me since initiation. I have compared AP1 to AP2 in many scenarios and found AP2 to work better.