Range Extension Stupidity

[uscbucsfan]

FWIW, I don't think the Silverado will be delivering to actual customers (not fleet) in high numbers for many years.

 

[HitchHiker71]

And many of the headlines said the CT with 500 miles of range that was affordable was finally an EV truck design to target the regular truck market.

Neither turned out to be true...again, the CT will still sell a ton, but to dismiss the importance of range is crazy. The F150L famously towed a boat like 120 miles before hitting 0, that's not even enough to get most from the lake and back.

Range and towing is important, especially if someone wants to tow at highway speeds...and we aren't even talking about driving for 4 hours. That's less than an hour each way.

I hear you. It's not like many of the towing/hauling cohort don't want good options for EV pickups. Most of the F150L owners that tow, freely admit that the actual towing performance, outside of the range concerns, is far above any other towing rig they have owned, and this includes many former F250 owners that towed quite often. The lower center of gravity for the EV pickups given the larger battery packs makes for a very solid towing experience. The only major issue that remains is range, and to a lesser extent, towing weight limits at present. It would be really nice to see a battery tech breakthrough, whether SSBs or otherwise, that would provide much higher cell density, and corresponding pack density, to meet this need, but that's likely 10-15 years out best estimate, especially for a mass production pack that is cost effective.

 

[ThomasD]

Now that these Trucks are out there is no talk about real world range or the payload capacities from owners. Not one Door Sticker picture.

 

[Mrbrock]

I suspect that a higher percentage than 5% of the 44% cared about the 500 miles of range not just to have higher range - but for actual towing/hauling purposes. Many of these folks will likely cancel or already have canceled their reservations if this is was their primary desire. Tesla won't share, nor will it ever share, the volume of reservation cancellations, especially if that number is considerable, as that would not look good for them and would communicate the wrong message to the market and to the stockholders. So we won't ever know either way, except to observe volume production ramps and price points as we move forward - particularly for the trimotor variant.

Why would anyone concerned about towing range substitute with an MS/MX? I certainly wouldn't, and I only tow/haul occasionally nowadays and not for particularly long distances. Those vehicles were never designed for this purpose really.

I think you missed my point. The 5% was of people who needed an EV truck and needed 500 mile range. That segment that "needs" it is very low. There is like to have, theres hey, thats nice, and theres I want the best and baddest period that makes up 95% of the people who put in preorders.

I was not saying someone concerned about towing would substitute a model X or S. I was saying someone who wanted to spend $90k on a vehicle like an SUV (model X) settle for 350 miles of range when for $10k LESS you could get 500 miles of range and similar levels of comfort and arguable more versatility. I never said towing was a factor, in fact I said the opposite. 95% of the people or who preordered 500 mile range, just wanted 500 mile range.

Here is another strictly range comparison. Lucid Air Dream for $160k or CT for $80k? If all you care about is a battery and how far you can drive, you will pick the CT all day every day. Not everyone has to have a sedan or has to have a truck. They will drive whatever vehicle fit their budget and gives them what they want.

 

[HitchHiker71]

Now that these Trucks are out there is no talk about real world range or the payload capacities from owners. Not one Door Sticker picture.

The fanboy base doesn’t care at all about trucks doing truck things. Until Tesla, or someone who owns a CT, let's someone like TFLEV actually test the CT for towing/hauling, just like they've done with every other EV pickup on the market, we're going to have to wait it out.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I think you missed my point. The 5% was of people who needed an EV truck and needed 500 mile range. That segment that "needs" it is very low. There is like to have, theres hey, thats nice, and theres I want the best and baddest period that makes up 95% of the people who put in preorders.

I was not saying someone concerned about towing would substitute a model X or S. I was saying someone who wanted to spend $90k on a vehicle like an SUV (model X) settle for 350 miles of range when for $10k LESS you could get 500 miles of range and similar levels of comfort and arguable more versatility. I never said towing was a factor, in fact I said the opposite. 95% of the people or who preordered 500 mile range, just wanted 500 mile range.

Here is another strictly range comparison. Lucid Air Dream for $160k or CT for $80k? If all you care about is a battery and how far you can drive, you will pick the CT all day every day. Not everyone has to have a sedan or has to have a truck. They will drive whatever vehicle fit their budget and gives them what they want.

Oh I understood your point, but you, just like me, have zero data upon which to make these assumptions, so that's what they are, assumptions. I know a LOT of people who made reservations who tow/haul, but I travel in those circles both locally and on several pickup forums. You could very well be right, but IME I think it's a lot higher than 5% of the 44% as you surmise. I think it's more like a third of overall trimotor reservation holders personally.

 

[MP3Mike]

Gas powered range extenders work because they output at a higher rate than you can use it so there is always a net positive.

That doesn't tend to be true. In the BMW i3REX you could barely go up a hill on the range extender because it can't put out enough power. I think the RAM 1500 EV range extender is supposed to only be capable of 120kW, way less than you can use towing up a hill. The same holds true for fuel cell vehicles, which are really just a range extended EV. The fuel cells can't put out enough power to fully power the vehicle, so it has to have a decent sized battery pack to buffer the power requirements.

 

[Mrbrock]

That doesn't tend to be true. In the BMW i3REX you could barely go up a hill on the range extender because it can't put out enough power. I think the RAM 1500 EV range extender is supposed to only be capable of 120kW, way less than you can use towing up a hill. The same holds true for fuel cell vehicles, which are really just a range extended EV. The fuel cells can't put out enough power to fully power the vehicle, so it has to have a decent sized battery pack to buffer the power requirements.

Ok, so thanks for using a poorly thought out and unneeded option from a city car that never made it as a goal for Tesla to beat. Which proves my point. If the REx battery doesn’t output as fast as you can discharge the main battery, people will find it useless because you won’t be able to get the full range from it. You’ll be stuck waiting for it to recharge the main battery so you can drive 25 more miles.

 

[gtgarner]

I personally believe that range of any EV is not that important.
Electricity is everywhere.
That could be why Tesla made this compromise.
I predict that very few people will buy the range extender (if Tesla ever offers it).
The cannonball run guys can make their own kludge.

I 100% agree.

I can't believe we are still talking about range anxiety on a TESLA forum. Charging stations are literally everywhere. <-- Proven by all of the other EV OEMs out there that are clamoring to use Tesla's network.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I 100% agree.

I can't believe we are still talking about range anxiety on a TESLA forum. Charging stations are literally everywhere. <-- Proven by all of the other EV OEMs out there that are clamoring to use Tesla's network.

I don't think we're talking about range anxiety. I think we're talking about range anxiety when towing/hauling heavier loads with a Cybertruck (or really any other EV pickup), particularly when towing larger trailers, at which point having charging stations everywhere isn't enough if those stations don't have pull through chargers. Almost none of the Tesla SC stations we routinely use in our tri-state area have pull through charging stations for example - and most of them are in parking lots or other areas that aren't exactly roomy so to speak. Try navigating into these charging stations with a 20 foot box trailer - not fun. Sure, this might get better over a period of years when new V4 charging stations are built - but it's not going to get better tomorrow. It's really easy to say just disconnect your 8-10klb trailer to charge, but that adds 10-20 minutes just to disconnect and reconnect, on top of your charge time. It's simply not efficient when you're only getting 100-120 miles between charging sessions (sans range extender). This is why towing with EVs isn't practical today. The range isn't there, and the charging locations aren't towing friendly for the most part.

 

[mspohr]

I don't think we're talking about range anxiety. I think we're talking about range anxiety when towing/hauling heavier loads with a Cybertruck (or really any other EV pickup), particularly when towing larger trailers, at which point having charging stations everywhere isn't enough if those stations don't have pull through chargers. Almost none of the Tesla SC stations we routinely use in our tri-state area have pull through charging stations for example - and most of them are in parking lots or other areas that aren't exactly roomy so to speak. Try navigating into these charging stations with a 20 foot box trailer - not fun. Sure, this might get better over a period of years when new V4 charging stations are built - but it's not going to get better tomorrow. It's really easy to say just disconnect your 8-10klb trailer to charge, but that adds 10-20 minutes just to disconnect and reconnect, on top of your charge time. It's simply not efficient when you're only getting 100-120 miles between charging sessions (sans range extender). This is why towing with EVs isn't practical today. The range isn't there, and the charging locations aren't towing friendly for the most part.

I don't think more range is the solution to the problem of not having pull-through charging spots.
I think having pull-through charging spots is the solution to not having pull-through charging spots.

 

[zoomer0056]

I don’t understand the range extension. You could easily use an aluminum battery which is non rechargeable but give 1000km/ or 625 miles of additional range which would solve the range problem.

How often would you use it? Maybe once per year, but then the roadtrip ends up not needing a super charger at all.

I would prefer to buy that, ie a battery hybrid alternative that is fully recyclable.

I believe the extender is meant to be permanent, not a temp customer install for the weekend. Pure speculation on my part.

 

[gtgarner]

I don't think more range is the solution to the problem of not having pull-through charging spots.
I think having pull-through charging spots is the solution to not having pull-through charging spots.

100% agree.

easy-peasy.

 

[HitchHiker71]

I don't think more range is the solution to the problem of not having pull-through charging spots.
I think having pull-through charging spots is the solution to not having pull-through charging spots.

I think it's both/and not either/or. You need more range to tow heavier loads over longer distances before having to stop for charging. Even if you were somehow able to find towing friendly chargers every 100-120 miles, why would you choose to do this when a less expensive ICE pickup can travel double that distance, or more, without stopping to refuel? For those who tow regularly, especially larger campers and heavier payloads, EVs just don't make sense, that's the bottom line. It'll get better if/when the REx becomes reality, but until then, there's simply no good solution out there when it comes to towing with an EV pickup.

 

[gtgarner]

My point is this:

If the Rivian has the same towing capacity of the CT. Bad numbers or not, then let's compare bad number to bad numbers. Or - if neither set of numbers are good...then let's just drop the topic all together.

To say that any other vehicle is "better" than the CT using a unit of measure outside of something concrete like numbers, only leads someone to use units of measure that are totally and completely subjective - like feelings.

 

[buckets0fun]

I think it's both/and not either/or. You need more range to tow heavier loads over longer distances before having to stop for charging. Even if you were somehow able to find towing friendly chargers every 100-120 miles, why would you choose to do this when a less expensive ICE pickup can travel double that distance, or more, without stopping to refuel? For those who tow regularly, especially larger campers and heavier payloads, EVs just don't make sense, that's the bottom line. It'll get better if/when the REx becomes reality, but until then, there's simply no good solution out there when it comes to towing with an EV pickup.

yawn. And yet plenty of us tow heavy & long and unaerodynamic loads with our EVs. Trailer friendly charging spots aren’t much of an issue. Garbage throughput at chargers off the beaten path are the major problem, however this is not an issue with an X. Plenty of quality DCFC within range while hauling a camper or aluminum trailer and light weight vehicle.

We decide to do this because we want whatever we want to drive. Compromises are everywhere, DPF/DEF/Diesel maintenance isn’t fun and is quite expensive.

If you’re trying to haul loads across the country for a living(Hot Shot), you’re not buying an EV tow vehicle. You’re grabbing a dually RAM or an F450 and running it into the ground. However, to say those that tow regularly don't have an EV is very much incorrect. Highly doubt rivian/tesla/ford would put effort into updates for towing if a decent portion of their user base doesn’t tow.

CT doing over 170mi with over 7k lbs behind it is pretttttty wild.

Look to YouTube, plenty of people towing 20-30ft travel trailers with their EVs.

 

[buckets0fun]

You’re grabbing a dually RAM or an F450 and running it into the ground.

And… to be fair… these people are sticking a range extender(50-100gal+ aux fuel tank) within their bed or on the frame rails of their cab and chassis RAM, in front of their goose/fifth wheel setup.

Common in the truck world for ‘range extenders’ to be added to trucks/vans that haul heavy for business or travel in remote areas.

 

[Evee]

The range extender is factually vaporware. It does not exist. No one has tested it. Not even Tesla. Sorry cult.

 

[gtgarner]

The range extender is factually vaporware. It does not exist. No one has tested it. Not even Tesla. Sorry cult.

I'll take vaporware for now.

I think I like its vaporware stats for now.

I think I like its vaporware placement in the bed for now.

I'll take vaporware for now.

I don't have anything else to do with my CT waiting list time, so vaporware is a nice way to pass the time.

Like counting my vaporware sheep when its time to go to sleep.

 

[Evee]

Totally fair lol