Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

[Casmium]

Just like an regular car how you drive will determine the fuel economy/range, I have a 2018 model 3 AWD, it's very possible to hit the range listed, bit it's very easy to fall below it(speeding, AC, heat)
As for supercharging speed there is also a lot of factors that will determine how fast it goes, state of charge when you arrive, battery temp, how many others are currently charging.

The main things that will make you like/dislike the car.
1. Can you charge at home or work
2. How often will you need the whole range
3. Are there currently superchargers where you usually travel

 

[Candleflame]

It's much more nuanced than "shallow cycles" are best - besides cycle-life-depth-of-discharge aging, you also have calendar life aging. Most battery cycle life tests are run continuously (charge-discharge with little to no rest in between), but in real life, cars sit idle for the vast majority of the time.

A typical car might spend 5% of it's time actually driving. 95% of the time, it's parked. My car also spends about 5% of their time charging (average speed driven is close to charging speed).

Due to this, capacity loss due to calendar aging appears to cause the majority of capacity loss except in high mileage cars. To reduce this, you need to do two things: keep the battery cool and keep the batter at lower states of charge.

Aside from parking in the coolest spot you can find, the only other thing you can do is keep the battery's state of charge as low as possible. Note that some claim that very low SOC is also bad, but there are some conflicting studies out there - others say that < 10% is best for calendar life - it might depend on chemistry.

Ideally, you would only charge only as much as needed to get to your next charge. You would also time it so that you finish charging just before you need to drive. This would combine shallow cycles with low average SOC - the best of both worlds.

In real life, though, people are lazy. For example, I compromise on this and typically charge to anywhere between 50-70% for most of my daily driving, then charge up again between 20-40%. For infrequent road trips I'll charge to 90-100% as needed. With this my average SOC is 40-45% - mainly because the car still ends up sitting a lot at 50%+ SOC.

which is literally what i wrote.

 

[Azguy01]

Just like an regular car how you drive will determine the fuel economy/range, I have a 2018 model 3 AWD, it's very possible to hit the range listed, bit it's very easy to fall below it(speeding, AC, heat)
As for supercharging speed there is also a lot of factors that will determine how fast it goes, state of charge when you arrive, battery temp, how many others are currently charging.

The main things that will make you like/dislike the car.
1. Can you charge at home or work
2. How often will you need the whole range
3. Are there currently superchargers where you usually travel

Thank you. One concern I have is I do Phoenix to LA about once a month. It is suggesting TWO stops for charging. This will add 1.5 hours to a 6 your drive. Does this sound right? I don't think I'd have the patience to sit there for 45 minutes twice on a trip to LA. Maybe I do a 20 minute super charger twice then. Thoughts?

Sidenote: On those trips it's 75 mph, and I usually go at least 80mph. How much will that affect the range?

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I just ordered my model 3 long range. Been watching tons of YouTube videos. Just watched a couple where the people said the range Tesla says is not even close to the range you get. And also the super charger time is much longer than stated. Is this true?

The range indicator is just a direct indicator of energy available. It has little to do with how far you can travel.

I’d expect about 250 miles to be able to be done comfortably in PERFECT conditions, but there are so many factors it is hard to say exactly. It all depends on your efficiency.

The Superchargers work fine as long as they are not crowded or broken, and you are using them as intended. Use the 250kW chargers; the older ones are much more likely to be broken and require moving around to find one that works well. I get 250kW virtually every time I get to one (until getting to a bit over 30% SoC and then it drops off).

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

This will add 1.5 hours to a 6 your drive

No, that is incorrect.

Assuming you have charging at your destination (critical in Los Angeles - you don’t want to have to use Superchargers there), the charging will add about 25 minutes to your travel time.

If you normally stop once on the trip anyway, the charging is unlikely to significantly impact your trip time (assuming you align your stop with a charging stop). Unless you travel at busy times (a big potential factor which you must consider and research a bit - I don’t know exactly how impacted Quartzite, Indio, Blythe, etc. get - check the Supercharger pages here for info, or ask a local owner for real-time info (they would need to be at a high SoC % to see)).

This has some pretty tight arrival charges, but you get the picture. Making it not marginal adds about 5 minutes.

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I would charge in the desert, and I would avoid using any chargers in LA basin. Obviously if the car says they are open and available, you can. But they are often busy and it is something to be aware of.

 

[KenC]

Thank you. One concern I have is I do Phoenix to LA about once a month. It is suggesting TWO stops for charging. This will add 1.5 hours to a 6 your drive. Does this sound right? I don't think I'd have the patience to sit there for 45 minutes twice on a trip to LA. Maybe I do a 20 minute super charger twice then. Thoughts?

Sidenote: On those trips it's 75 mph, and I usually go at least 80mph. How much will that affect the range?

Try running some sims in ABRP. Setting speed at 115% of limit, I get two stops for 10m and 17m, so 27m of charging and a drive time of 4h47m. That's averaging about 80mph while driving.

 

[Gordon Parr]

My 2018 M3 with 38k miles over the past few months had seemed to lose miles after charging. Normally when I charge to 90% I would get anywhere from 273-279 miles…lately it has been coming in at 251-253. This morning I decided to look at what percentage on the charging screen and the green charge line is not at the 90% indicator.

Any ideas and/or suggestions to get this corrected? Thanks!

 

[jjrandorin]

I am confused by this question. At the beginning, it sounds like the standard "my car doesnt have the same amount of range" question, but then you say "the green charge line is not at 90%, how do I correct this?"

I am confused by that question, because anyone who has owned a model 3 since 2018 and driven 38k miles knows that if "the green line is not at 90%" then you simply drag / move it to 90%, so that cant be what you are talking about, but it sounds like it is.

 

[Gordon Parr]

It is what I am talking about. LOL. When my car has finished charging I get the notification that says charging complete. When I then go sit in the car I open up the charging window and the green charge indicator is not up to the white line at 90%…in other words it is not charging to the requested percentage.

Hope this helps…and I apologize…I swear I started this in its own thread.

 

[jjrandorin]

It is what I am talking about. LOL. When my car has finished charging I get the notification that says charging complete. When I then go sit in the car I open up the charging window and the green charge indicator is not up to the white line at 90%…in other words it is not charging to the requested percentage.

Hope this helps…and I apologize…I swear I started this in its own thread.

You did.

Do you have (or have you ever had) anything interacting with the car other than the official tesla app?

 

[Gordon Parr]

No sir…Tela App…no 3rd party apps ever.

 

[Charl2020]

Hello everyone,.

I have a model 3 Standard Range 2021 with an advertised max of 267. I have done 2900 miles and purchased the car In Nov 2020.

Most of the time I have the maximum charge set to 80% for local driving. However I have recently taken a few longer trips but when I try to charge the car to 100% fully charged it doesn't get close to 267 miles. The highest it gets to is 247 miles. but typically full charge is 240, This has happened both with my home charger and superchargers. I dont expect the charge to last 267 miles but I did expect, when new. that it would have 267miles at fully charged.

Any idea why a new Tesla model 3, with a stated maximum charge of 267 miles, would never fully charge to 267 miles?

I very much appreciate your help,
many thanks
Charles

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I have done 2900 miles and purchased the car In Nov 2020.

So it's about 8 months old. It's not new.

advertised max of 267.

Advertised max is 263. (What it charges to and displays at max for 2021 I do not know - it may display as high as 267, since they're using the 2170L these days with a max of 55.4kWh or something, though they don't seem to allow charging it above about 54kWh - limited data on this.)

Any idea why a new Tesla model 3, with a stated maximum charge of 267 miles, would never fully charge to 267 miles?

It charges to 247 miles which implies the BMS thinks you have lost about 6% capacity. There's some potential error on that, so it could be as little as 3-4%.

That's fairly normal after 8 months, regardless of mileage.

You can always just drive the battery to close to empty, let the car sleep, charge it up again, let it sleep, etc., and see whether the estimate improves. But there's no reason to expect that you won't lose capacity after this length of time, even if the car has not been used much. So I wouldn't expect much from such attempts.

 

[Candleflame]

indeed.
Unlike the S/X with the highly variable but usually low time based degradation Model 3 seems to be very consistent with 5% loss in the first year followed by 3-4% in the second year.

Looking at the very high milage leaderboard on teslafi you then get another 1-2% over the next 100k kms.

A more time based degradation system (by whatever means in the chemistry they achieved this) is ok but it is frustrating that the model S/X even with old age and high miles has so much less degradation than the 3 on average

Even though I have around 9% degradation I am just barely below average. And it is noteworthy that I havnt been doing much driving over the last year which means there are a lot of high milage low age cares dragging the average up a bit. Average is 7%.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

indeed.
Unlike the S/X with the highly variable but usually low time based degradation Model 3 seems to be very consistent with 5% loss in the first year followed by 3-4% in the second year.

Looking at the very high milage leaderboard on teslafi you then get another 1-2% over the next 100k kms.

A more time based degradation system (by whatever means in the chemistry they achieved this) is ok but it is frustrating that the model S/X even with old age and high miles has so much less degradation than the 3 on average

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Even though I have around 9% degradation I am just barely below average. And it is noteworthy that I havnt been doing much driving over the last year which means there are a lot of high milage low age cares dragging the average up a bit. Average is 7%.

I'm not sure this particular vintage of SR+ vehicle has the 2170L batteries (seems too early...definitely ones built in 2021 seem to have them...the only way to tell is to look at the pack label or use SMT) - I just don't know. Anyway: It will be interesting to get data on the 2170Ls over the coming year. I don't think this is a 2170L datapoint but I'm not sure.

 

[Candleflame]

I'm not sure this particular vintage of SR+ vehicle has the 2170L batteries (seems too early...definitely ones built in 2021 seem to have them...the only way to tell is to look at the pack label or use SMT) - I just don't know. Anyway: It will be interesting to get data on the 2170Ls over the coming year. I don't think this is a 2170L datapoint but I'm not sure.

im very very keen to see degradation data for the iron batteries. theres a few people here in Aus with new SR+ who seem to be happy to arrive at the shopping centres with 95% SOC and plug their cars in.... so the cars spend a lot of time sitting at 100%...

Not convinced that that is ideal. Tesla recommends charging the car to 100% frequently but imho this is just for better range estimation as the car cant really estimate SOC until above 98%. I reckon there is still less degradation keeping it at <90%.

When the SR+ was initially released in Germany there were many people supercharging their cars and the car would still charge with 40kw at 99% so the estimation was completely off.

 

[Warbiegunner69]

I took delivery of my Model 3 LR in December 2020 and over the course of the next 5 months I drove 10,000 miles at 257 Wh/mile. During this time I charged on a normal domestic plug and did not use a supercharger. At 90% charge the range was between 300 and 303 and when I did charge it fully once it had a range of 337 miles.

I then installed a faster charger at work which charged at 33 Miles per hour and with a holiday in Scotland planned for this summer decided to stop having so much fun and drive the car conservatively . Over the course of the last 4000 miles I have driven at 222 Wh/mile but to my utter confusion my 90% range has fallen to 292 and my full range down to 322.

Can someone explain this to me as I dont understand. I spoke to Tesla service but they dont understand and told me not to be worried. How can driving the car considerably more efficiently be reducing the range so much ? Is the faster charger causing this ? I'd be shocked if it was as this is what your supposed to install at home.

Has anyone else had this issue or can anyone explain ?

 

[Sophias_dad]

It seems like about every third new post is a new owner being concerned about losing range. I think we need a sticky post if we don't already have one to describe this phenomenon.

That could be nothing but noise, and even if it is not, that's like 2% of your battery in 14,000 miles. Come back to us when your 90% range is 253 miles after 38,000 miles(like mine), and there STILL won't be anything wrong or actionable. What little change you are seeing could be related to the temperature during charging or any number of other factors.

I'd wager that the efficiency of any ICE car goes down over its lifetime as well(ok, up for a little while, then down), but since people don't see those numbers they don't realize it.

 

[jjrandorin]

It seems like about every third new post is a new owner being concerned about losing range. I think we need a sticky post if we don't already have one to describe this phenomenon.

It is, and in the model 3 section, we do (which is the thread I move every post around this topic to, including where the post you were responding to while I was moving it, lol).

 

[Warbiegunner69]

I think your missing the point of my post here. I got the car in winter and now its summer and hot so cant believe that would be anything but a positive. My point is I have driven the car much more conservatively in 4000 of those miles and yet the range was higher up to 10,000 miles and mostly in colder conditions. I understand range will reduce with mileage but dont understand how it can reduce by 10 miles whilst driving considerably more efficiently