That is correct, I've didn't see a drop in the estimated range. I was very careful not to talk about degradation. I have no way to find out what the true degradation is, but I can only share my observations about the estimated range. I emphasize that I'm not seeing any drop in a usable range, and shy away from talking about degradation. I hope that helps.
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Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health
- Thread starter KK_RedM3
- Start date
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Unlikely - it would be hard to tell probably though because Tesla was messing around with things a bit... It's a little unclear how Tesla dealt with this, but certainly your battery has lost capacity. You should just hook up a CAN bus reader. The fact that you're at 311 at a full charge suggests you have degradation (if your max was 310 it would probably only display 310 regardless...) Not a lot - you're doing really well - probably about 5%.
Another thing you can do is figure out your charge constant. It will be 234Wh/rmi from the Energy screen most likely. The EPA docs say an undegraded battery is about 79kWh (maybe 75.7kWh for very early model 3...unclear). 311rmi at 234Wh/rmi is 72.7kWh.
That's why I think it's very likely you have degraded capacity.
It's actually at 330 miles now for 2020... lol. Officially at 310 for 2017-2019.
It's pretty unclear what happened with the LR RWD, I will say that much. My understanding is that the constant never changed...but the amount allocated to the buffer may have. No information from people here explaining what happened exactly...
And it's possible the 2017s were different.
But I'm not sure exactly what happened; can't tell from the EPA docs. In any case it's unheard of for people to have no loss of capacity after 50k miles and 2+ years.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
That is fair enough. It does seem that if the constant has not changed, your usable energy is the same, even though your battery has lost capacity. An unusual situation.
I think some did report a constant change, at least based on the location of the rated line on the energy graph.
It does seem unrealistic for no loss over time, but I have seen claims by some of no loss for over 4 year old Model S cars.
But I haven't seen the validating evidence like CAN data to prove it. That's why the CAN data is really important to understand what is really going on here.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
I’ll have to do some research and see if I can find the old posts with the old rated line position to see if it moved.
All I am saying is just because you had 310 miles before and ~310 miles now does not necessarily mean you have the same amount of energy available. I don’t know one way or another.
Rothgarr
Active Member
Should I not be concerned with my stated range at 100% SOC in the wintertime?
I ask because I charged my 2019 LR Dual Motor to 100% for the first time in months and it said 303 miles. Car has 8,300 miles and is seven months old. Software is up-to-date.
I’m also confused if I should consider the original max 310 miles, or 322? (Or whatever it was after that 5% update)
Should I wait until warmer weather to really determine degradation?
I ask because I charged my 2019 LR Dual Motor to 100% for the first time in months and it said 303 miles. Car has 8,300 miles and is seven months old. Software is up-to-date.
I’m also confused if I should consider the original max 310 miles, or 322? (Or whatever it was after that 5% update)
Should I wait until warmer weather to really determine degradation?
2018 w/16,000 miles here, performance edition. Went skiing, so first time charging to 100% 299 max, but stopped at 284 miles, so 5% loss, however, on return trip, again to 100%, it showed 290 miles this time, so only a 3%, so thats interesting.
I charge car daily to the max driving "daily driving" limit, so about 260 mile range, that's about 86%.
I drive the car pretty hard, love the sticky Michelin Sport 4S tires, rail on them in the canyons, so i enjoy the crap out of the car. Did switch to Michelin AS3 all weather for ski trip, heard the 4S tires turn into hockey pucks in icy conditions.
Driving the car in all variety capacities i think exercises the battery, meaning i push the crap out of the car sometimes, other times, i chill and cruise. It's like your brain and heart, it needs a good dose of exercise. Babying it hurts it and pushing it constantly also hurts it, so balance i think is key.
I charge car daily to the max driving "daily driving" limit, so about 260 mile range, that's about 86%.
I drive the car pretty hard, love the sticky Michelin Sport 4S tires, rail on them in the canyons, so i enjoy the crap out of the car. Did switch to Michelin AS3 all weather for ski trip, heard the 4S tires turn into hockey pucks in icy conditions.
Driving the car in all variety capacities i think exercises the battery, meaning i push the crap out of the car sometimes, other times, i chill and cruise. It's like your brain and heart, it needs a good dose of exercise. Babying it hurts it and pushing it constantly also hurts it, so balance i think is key.
There was no, 5% or otherwise, update that increased the range. The 322 is for 2020 Model 3s. So you should still consider 310 your max.
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Since you have a 2018 your max when new was 310 rated miles @ 245Wh/rmi, not 299rmi @ ~260Wh/rmi.
If you go to tesla.com now and configure model 3, with long range, dual motor, performance edition, it shows 299. Was 2018 rated higher?
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Yes. It’s a long silly story. The 2020 is rated lower, but likely has somewhat better range than the 2018 3P+ originally had. Note the constants quoted above, as well...
The 2018 3P+ was actually never rated in that form, at all, due to a “take rate” exception. It received the AWD with aeros (or the 3P- which was the same at the time) rating.
In any case the constant for your vehicle will not change, and a brand new battery would show 310 rated miles on your vehicle.
On Tesla site, it shows 322 with dual motor and performance, however when you select "performance upgrade", which is what i have, it drops down to 299. So, wouldn't the 2018 be the same?
AlanSubie4Life
Efficiency Obsessed Member
Yeah, it would have been close...probably about 287rmi @ 265Wh/rmi or so actually. But that is not what they did!
It doesn’t matter. The point is your car had at least 76kWh (310rmi @ 245Wh/rmi) available when new (maybe even have been as high as ~78kWh). Now you are at 290rmi @245Wh/rmi, which is 71kWh. (So at least 6.5% loss.)
If your car were to be allowed to run the 2020 Performance software, it would now show ~273 rated miles at 100%, not 299rmi, with 260Wh/rmi. (But Tesla won’t allow you to do this most likely since they don’t like to change the ratings for older vehicles.)
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I wanted to chime in an say in my limited 2 week experiment, I've been seeing similar results as you. Ever since August of 2019, my estimated range dropped suddenly from 260mi@80% to 240@80% (325mi@100% to 300mi@100%) . I didn't think much about it since my daily round trip commute is only 45-55miles and I charge to 80% every night, so it didn't affect me at all.
Then I read all the posts about re-balancing the battery by draining to 20% or less and then charging it to 90% or more in one go. I tried that once last November and it showed no difference so I figured it was just a coincidence for the cases where it worked. Then recently I read about leaving the car plugged in for a few hours after reaching 90% so I decided to try it again a couple weeks ago. The first retry 2 weeks ago, I drained to 20% and charged back to 90%, but only left it plugged in for about 45min after finishing charge. Not much of a change., maybe 1 or 2 extra miles of estimated range at 80%, which could be considered noise. Then a week ago, I did the same (20-90%) and left it plugged in for 3 hours after finishing charging and I noticed a consistent increase in the last 3 days to about 248mi@80% (310mi%100%). I'm going to start my drain to 20% today (it should be at 20% by Saturday night with my driving habits), and will charge to 90% by Sunday morning to see if the estimated range gets even better.
A couple more things to note, I also have been using more Wh/mi lately because of the cold weather. And also, to help get the battery down to 20%, I have run the heater while parked a couple times.
spsheridan
Member
I'm curious, over your 54K miles of driving, roughly how much of those miles did you use AC (level 2) charging vs. DC fast charging?
Warmer today and it has dropped to 448, lowest estimate . Beginning to get worried . 465, 461, 456 and now 448 which is 278 miles . If one goes by the 325 mile 523 km new range estimate. I've lost 15 percent. I'm halfway to a warranty claim lol.
MarcG
Active Member
EPA is for the US. @P85Alkmaar is in the Netherlands, which is in Europe, where they use WLTP.
Tesla shows 530km on their dutch website:
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