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Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

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Thanks for the reassurance! It's just a bummer knowing that I'm probably on the lower half (or quartile!) of the distribution, rather than the upper.

As for balancing - I have seen what appears to be balancing take place watching the cell max/min values in SMT, as the cell difference value closes as the car sits idling. For instance, it'll start off at 6-8 mV, and close to 2 mV a few hours later when look at SMT again. I've noticed it at all charge levels, so I think some degree of balancing is always taking place (assuming the values from SMT are accurate). Most of the time, my car is sitting with a cell difference of 2-4 mV.
My S75D is 14 months / 36k km old . I bought it at 9 months / 13k km. I charge it to 80% daily and only 100% a few times a year for long trips. I installed an OBDII dongle a few weeks ago and it shows 1100 kWh DC charge vs 8800 kWh AC charge. It also shows my pack is not very well balanced: cell group 31 is always 50+ mV lower than the other cell groups. I tested this at 80% and 99% even hours after the charging has stopped. That was also the first time I noticed my car does not charge up to 100% any more.

72595283-5B92-4748-89FA-A690C1771AEA.png A5FA8E31-324C-477E-94EF-400B2E4325B0.png

I have read before that below 10 mV is "good". How bad is 50+ mV? In every day use I don't notice a thing.. but will keep an eye on it now.
 
My S75D is 14 months / 36k km old . I bought it at 9 months / 13k km. I charge it to 80% daily and only 100% a few times a year for long trips. I installed an OBDII dongle a few weeks ago and it shows 1100 kWh DC charge vs 8800 kWh AC charge. It also shows my pack is not very well balanced: cell group 31 is always 50+ mV lower than the other cell groups. I tested this at 80% and 99% even hours after the charging has stopped. That was also the first time I noticed my car does not charge up to 100% any more.

View attachment 511375 View attachment 511376

I have read before that below 10 mV is "good". How bad is 50+ mV? In every day use I don't notice a thing.. but will keep an eye on it now.
You should charge from 20% to 90% a number of times in a row. That will help calibrate the BMS and balance the pack.
 
After browsing through this extended thread I'm almost afraid to ask another question. But here goes...

I bought my Model 3 Performance about 10 weeks ago. I didn't change the charge level and after a full night's charge it stood at 185mi of predicted range. It appeared to me that I was charging to about 90%. Then 2 weeks ago I took a short road trip, about 400 miles each way. The night before I left I set the charger level to 100% and had it start charging in the middle of the night so that it would be fully charged about when I planned to leave. The trip went great.

Since I've been back home and charging with the charge level set to 90% at the end of an overnight charge I show 168mi of range instead of 185. I don't know what to make of this. In theory I think at 100% charge I should see something in the neighborhood of 230 miles of range.

I'm an Android user so I don't have the Stats app to help me see things in greater detail.

Does any of this really matter? Am I making myself crazy. Or is there something here to actually be concerned about.
 
After browsing through this extended thread I'm almost afraid to ask another question. But here goes...

I bought my Model 3 Performance about 10 weeks ago. I didn't change the charge level and after a full night's charge it stood at 185mi of predicted range. It appeared to me that I was charging to about 90%. Then 2 weeks ago I took a short road trip, about 400 miles each way. The night before I left I set the charger level to 100% and had it start charging in the middle of the night so that it would be fully charged about when I planned to leave. The trip went great.

Since I've been back home and charging with the charge level set to 90% at the end of an overnight charge I show 168mi of range instead of 185. I don't know what to make of this. In theory I think at 100% charge I should see something in the neighborhood of 230 miles of range.

I'm an Android user so I don't have the Stats app to help me see things in greater detail.

Does any of this really matter? Am I making myself crazy. Or is there something here to actually be concerned about.
I don't get it. 185 miles for 90%
230 % for a 100%

For a performance model 3 ?

You mean a S+ ?
 
I purchased SR last year and never saw the advertised 220 miles in the screen. Today, I fully charged the car to 100% and got to 202 miles.
I have talked to multiple people at Tesla since the beginning and they assured me that my battery is healthy and this degradation is expected. Is this number accurate? Or should I have a longer range by now? Currently at 20k miles.
Well... I have a 4 month old SR+ which basically never was above ~206 of the 240miles... You might still stay at 202miles estimated.

Tesla can’t tell me why, all secret: capacity and degradation is secret.

I’ve decided I can’t stand that anymore and ordered ScanMyTesla hardware to plug in OBD and inform myself since Tesla is all secret about my battery capacity..

I can only use about 41.6kWh in a fullt charged pack
Would be nice if Tesla had a BMS calibration that would run automatically once a month. Have a popup, telling you that the battery calibration needs to be run, then you hit a button for "later tonite", or "ask again tomorrow" or "not until next month".
Agreed or at least tell me to not ABC “always be charging” if that’s how to actually do it... (read and hear mixed opinions about it)
 
Well... I have a 4 month old SR+ which basically never was above ~206 of the 240miles... You might still stay at 202miles estimated.

Tesla can’t tell me why, all secret: capacity and degradation is secret.

I’ve decided I can’t stand that anymore and ordered ScanMyTesla hardware to plug in OBD and inform myself since Tesla is all secret about my battery capacity..

I can only use about 41.6kWh in a fullt charged pack

Agreed or at least tell me to not ABC “always be charging” if that’s how to actually do it... (read and hear mixed opinions about it)

Ill be really curious to see what your nominal full pack looks like and the cell imbalances. Something seems quite obviously wrong here to have 15-20% of your capacity missing since the beginning. Ive experienced a drop myself, but nothing to this degree. Im attributing my range loss to cooler weather this time of year. Ill report back how much my nominal full pack comes back once it starts warming up here in the next month or so.
 
I noticed that after updating to 2019.32 my M3 doesn't fully charge any longer! I always charge to 80% ~248 miles and before 2019.32 it would charge to about 250 miles. After it was always charging to 242. So I charged to 100% and it will only go to 295 Miles. I did it twice as a test and both times 100% charge is 295 miles. Anyone else have this experience?
Ion Oct 2019 (exactly 1 yr of driving total of 15k+ miles; M3 AWD LR) my “range” showed very similar lower numbers as yours. I only charged to 100% about twice every three months. Tesla SC said they remote checked my car’s vitals and do not show any uneven or irregular battery issues. Approx 4-6% drop during first year and 1-3% drop in subsequent years. And something about recalibration of math algorithms in recent range computation & reserve power. The more I talk with other Model 3 AWD owners, it appears this is “normal.” So, welcome time the club..
 
yes, I have had this happen as well. My max charge only goes to 285 now. The car is a 2018 with only 25K on it. Any suggestions from others on what to do. Should those of us experiencing this set up an appointment with TESLa (difficult for me since the only dealer is in MA and I live in ME) or can they do something over wifi?

s
 
My max charge only goes to 285 now. The car is a 2018 with only 25K on it. A

s

My Max charge is only 283 now and seems to reduce by one mile a week for the last 3 or 4 months. I took it to the SC last week for that and a few other issues including needing a new 12V battery and they told me the 12V battery was what was causing the battery not to charge higher. I didn't argue because I really needed my car back at the time but will be scheduling another appointment because my range is still losing mileage.
 
My Max charge is only 283 now and seems to reduce by one mile a week for the last 3 or 4 months. I took it to the SC last week for that and a few other issues including needing a new 12V battery and they told me the 12V battery was what was causing the battery not to charge higher. I didn't argue because I really needed my car back at the time but will be scheduling another appointment because my range is still losing mileage.
Well it seems that this is not a widespread problem from what I can tell from the lack of follow ups. I guess I will have to take it to the SC and see what they say. I believe someone in this thread suggested charging several times from 10 -90 to fix the problem? I wonder if that is an informed opinion or not? anyone else have any suggestions? thanks s
 
My S75D is 14 months / 36k km old . I bought it at 9 months / 13k km. I charge it to 80% daily and only 100% a few times a year for long trips. I installed an OBDII dongle a few weeks ago and it shows 1100 kWh DC charge vs 8800 kWh AC charge. It also shows my pack is not very well balanced: cell group 31 is always 50+ mV lower than the other cell groups. I tested this at 80% and 99% even hours after the charging has stopped. That was also the first time I noticed my car does not charge up to 100% any more.

View attachment 511375 View attachment 511376

I have read before that below 10 mV is "good". How bad is 50+ mV? In every day use I don't notice a thing.. but will keep an eye on it now.
can the SC fix the problem of excessive loss of range in a relatively new battery?
thanks
s
 
From a member of the model 3 FB group:

This weekend, I attended a Tesla Owners Event, at which one of the presentations was on service and proper battery charging and maintenance. At this session, the two Tesla gentlemen acknowledged that where charging and proper battery maintenance there was a lot of misinformation on social media, and that this was not helped by materials on Tesla's site and even from Elon. He said that his information comes straight from the engineering team. The major points he discussed were:

1. Despite what you might have heard, the best thing to do for your battery on a regular basis is to charge up to 80% and not go below 20%. If you have to dip below 20% on occasion, that's OK, but charge up ASAP. If you are going on a trip, charge up as much as needed, but don't let the battery sit above 80% for long. Definitely don't let it sit above 95% for long at all - drive immediately when charging is complete.

2. Set percentage instead of range on the display. The range number is NOT set to EPA figures for the given battery percentage, but is calculated off the estimated charge of the pack AND your driving habits (See the discussion on the BMS below). Basically, a degradation of that number most likely does NOT indicate a battery problem. If you get in touch with service, they will use a sophisticated diagnostic to check the state of the pack and will most likely not see any major faults (as more than one person on FB has complained - "they aren't taking me seriously/they are hiding something/they don't want to fix it").

3. The BMS - battery management system. First, a little background is required:

You don't have one battery. Depending on the model you have, you can have upwards of 4000 individual battery cells all wired together in 3 or 4 "bricks", which combine to make one battery pack. The cells discharge at varying rates, from 4.2v (100%) down. However, when the car charges, it charges until the FIRST one of those thousands of cells reaches the charge limit percentage REGARDLESS of the charge level of the other cells. So if some batteries are 4.1v, 3.9v, etc, they will NOT get a full charge, and this will impact range.

If you are familiar with lithium ion battery packs, you may be familiar with the term "balance charging" - which is a way to ensure that the individual cells have the same voltage on them. These cells do NOT like to be overcharged and can catch fire - which is why the BMS shuts down when the first cell reaches capacity. So obviously you "lose range" because you cannot charge the other cells to capacity. Repeated short drives (and short recharges) don't give the BMS the data it needs to calculate battery health - both gentlemen stressed repeatedly that the algorithm used for the "miles remaining" figure gets more and more inaccurate over time, and that allowing the BMS to balance the cells "solves" most cases of "lost range". One gentleman stated that it's like filling a glass of water to a point and asking how much water is in the glass. You can't truly tell until you pour it into a measuring cup and measure it. It's the same with the BMS - if you use 10%, add 10%, use 5%, add 5%, etc the BMS is using the amount of current added during the charge cycle to decide what the capacity of the battery is. As mentioned in #3, you may not be adding a true 10% of capacity because one cell may not have discharged 10% - maybe it only discharged 9%, and therefore really only 9% is added in before charging stops. Those little discrepancies add up over time, and are rectified by balancing the cells:

a. Drive the car on a long trip - down to 20% is optimal.

b. Charge up to 90% and leave the charger connected overnight. The BMS will discharge the cells until they are all at the same voltage and then recharge them so that they are all the same voltage at a 90% overall state of charge. Then your remaining miles should be back to spec or thereabouts. The BMS will not balance the cells unless the battery is charged to at least 90%.

4. For optimal battery health, let the car sit for an hour before charging and for an hour after charging. They suggested using the scheduled charge feature for that. For some people like me who don't commute to work or have a set driving schedule, this won't work as well since the scheduling turns on the climate control for departure time and therefore wastes power if you aren't going anywhere.

5. To get a MUCH better estimate of your remaining miles, use the Energy app, set to Average at 30 miles. The algorithm there uses your driving style (average Wh/mi over the specified number of miles) and the percentage of battery remaining to perform its calculation. The algorithm on the main display is NOT as accurate according to them. They stressed that several times during both their presentation and the Q&A session.

6. Charging via a 110v circuit (for those of us who have it) is more efficient on the Model 3 than the Model S or X due to the improved charging circuit and battery technology.

(However, in my personal testing, it's about 6x slower than 240v/32a 14-50 charging, so I can only imagine how slow it is on an S or X....)

7. Supercharging is NOT good for the battery when done regularly. If you are relying on it for much/most of your charging, you WILL experience faster degradation of the pack. (NOTE: This *MAY* only apply to Model S/X and NOT the 3 per other information. The Tesla folks did not differentiate between models, so I can't say if this is true or not.)

8. ABC - Always Be Charging. The battery pack does much better when it is charged up after each use.

9. They are trying to get updated materials on the web site that reflect this information. Unfortunately, as you may have guessed, there are several higher priorities that the company is focusing on, so it will take time.

Hope this is helpful and explains some things.
thank you! this was really helpful. s
 
Is there anyone with a SR+ who gets 240mile/386km and can share his ScanMyTesla stats?

our model 3 is now four months old but ever since getting it it only has less range then a standard non plus...

Tesla SeC shooshed me away told me nothing is wrong and the rated range is based on driving style... “Check website which says -30%”

as someone who builds own diy e-moped, ex-car mechanic I know they are lying so I got ScanMyTesla and I found out I seem to be right...

44.9kWh useable and 2.1kWh buffer remaining...

I’ve not even used all referral km’s never go to low SoC, rarely went over 90% (except for attempting to recalibrate, quickly drive it lower) and I feel shafted.. The car isn’t leased and i paid about 50% upfront for my business (and it’s wayy longer strech then what I ever would normally hve done)

I am a big fan, even have shares, but this hurts... Paid for SR+ but it’s pretty much SR- right from the start.

curious if other people with (preferably my2019) model 3’s can share ScanMyTesla data?

(nominal pack and buffer?)

my theoretical 100% is 213miles “best case” or 340-344km (since we use kilometers) and never really has been higher.
 
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Reactions: AlanSubie4Life
Yes... did thst specificslly last 10 chargers also: o difference aNd no imbalance in pack.. just 44.9kWh usable remaining 4month old car, been this low ever since got it

Battery lottery.

Tesla told me my battery was fine and the loss of capacity was possibly due to my charging habits.

During 3 months I've been following their advice fighting against the car trying to charge only when it's supposed to be good for the BMS algorithms.

The car has kept loosing range. In my case it's around 6/7% for 15000 kms (around 9K miles) in less than a year.

So this is the thing: when you buy a Model 3 you get a lottery ticket. Period.

Tesla will not admit it. Worse, it seems perverse to me to suggest that the loss may be the fault of the user due to their charging habits.
 
Battery lottery.

Tesla told me my battery was fine and the loss of capacity was possibly due to my charging habits.

During 3 months I've been following their advice fighting against the car trying to charge only when it's supposed to be good for the BMS algorithms.

The car has kept loosing range. In my case it's around 6/7% for 15000 kms (around 9K miles) in less than a year.

So this is the thing: when you buy a Model 3 you get a lottery ticket. Period.

Tesla will not admit it. Worse, it seems perverse to me to suggest that the loss may be the fault of the user due to their charging habits.
Thanks for sharing. I have never had great capacity afaik.

it seems like i am already down to -15% after just receiving the new car.. Always on home tesla charger and between 30-90...

i did so much research and read about Tesla having the best batteries I never expected that me “babying” the battery all the time, would only have 85% of full capacity.. Basically less then a SR non plus from the start.