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Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

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Two different API range values AFAIK. Also visible in app I suppose.
I have not seen any annual change in range with teslafi, so I did not think that teslafi did it wrong, but the picture a few days back sure looked like they do.

Teslafi get two different SOC’s from the API:
-The real SOC, not adjusted for cold battery.
-The cold battery SOC, that the car displays on the screen.
These can both be seen in the tesla app as you say.
The blue part is the difference between.
IMG_6390.jpeg


Teslafi shows it like this:
IMG_6389.jpeg



Without having checked, I would say that the dispayed range is strongly connected to the SOC, so a cold battery where the SOC is displayed lower also renders a shorter range displayed.

If the degradation calculation in a third part software use the real SOC instead of cold SOC as the base for the current range calculation and divides it with the ”cold range” the calculation for range at 100% will bee to low.
In my cars case it was charged shortly before my wife drowe to work and parked it outside, so the cell temp has not dropped too much yet. Only ~1% delta right now but a full day would show about 3-4% lower displayed SOC which means the displayed range would also drop 3-4%.
And a faulty degradation calculation would also show the same drop.
This without having the battery capacity changing at all.

I have not seen the BMS data for nominal full pack show any sign of decreasing in cold climate.

Cold temperatures means the battery degrades way less from calendar aging and a BMS capable of reading the actual capacity would not measrue less capacity.

As for degradation measuring purposes, the displayed range and SOC can be used as indicators for changes in the battery capacity, but due to how Tesla displays range and SOC it could show the degradation wrongly.
 
I have not seen any annual change in range with teslafi, so I did not think that teslafi did it wrong, but the picture a few days back sure looked like they do.

Teslafi get two different SOC’s from the API:
-The real SOC, not adjusted for cold battery.
-The cold battery SOC, that the car displays on the screen.
These can both be seen in the tesla app as you say.
The blue part is the difference between.
View attachment 999591

Teslafi shows it like this:
View attachment 999592


Without having checked, I would say that the dispayed range is strongly connected to the SOC, so a cold battery where the SOC is displayed lower also renders a shorter range displayed.

If the degradation calculation in a third part software use the real SOC instead of cold SOC as the base for the current range calculation and divides it with the ”cold range” the calculation for range at 100% will bee to low.
In my cars case it was charged shortly before my wife drowe to work and parked it outside, so the cell temp has not dropped too much yet. Only ~1% delta right now but a full day would show about 3-4% lower displayed SOC which means the displayed range would also drop 3-4%.
And a faulty degradation calculation would also show the same drop.
This without having the battery capacity changing at all.

I have not seen the BMS data for nominal full pack show any sign of decreasing in cold climate.

Cold temperatures means the battery degrades way less from calendar aging and a BMS capable of reading the actual capacity would not measrue less capacity.

As for degradation measuring purposes, the displayed range and SOC can be used as indicators for changes in the battery capacity, but due to how Tesla displays range and SOC it could show the degradation wrongly.
Thanks for the explanation, I understand this better now. Attached is a slide I made from my TeslaFi Battery report I made this morning. So yes you can use it to get a general idea/indication of degradation but the signal is noisy. Also it's not so good for "fleet" comparisons as my example shows where my FPWN started off at 74.5; rest of the "fleet" sample seem to have a higher FPWN assuming they are actually using a comparison with LG M48 batteries (like my car). Sorry if the text isn't very clear with .png, it wouldn't let me upload a .svg file with better resolution. Finally, before TeslafI come and get me, I do still love you TeslaFi and wouldn't leave home without you :)
 

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I have regularly seen the car sleep one week except for the short moments of charging the LV-bat once or twice a day).
(And, of course one extra awake period or two when I when inside the var and checked the cell temp.)

It should be clear to everybody that a Tesla can not heat the battery when it is sleeping, at the HV Batt is disconnected and there is no power source available for heating.

Ohh don't get me wrong, I completely agree that it is not going to heat the battery and cannot heat the battery if it is sleeping. I just thought there was a mechanism for the car to heat the battery without user direction, to prevent hard freezing the lithium pack.
 
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Also it's not so good for "fleet" comparisons as my example shows where my FPWN started off at 74.5; rest of the "fleet" sample seem to have a higher FPWN assuming they are actually using a comparison with LG M48 batteries (like my car).

I bet teslafi can not easily differ between the four different batteries delivered the same year on the same model.
The average line will be a mix of all batteries used for that year. Its just like Tessie, wildly guessing the initial capacity and mostly getting it wrong.
These apps/services do as good as they can but they do not have very much data to go by.
 
Thanks for the explanation, I understand this better now. Attached is a slide I made from my TeslaFi Battery report I made this morning. So yes you can use it to get a general idea/indication of degradation but the signal is noisy. Also it's not so good for "fleet" comparisons as my example shows where my FPWN started off at 74.5; rest of the "fleet" sample seem to have a higher FPWN assuming they are actually using a comparison with LG M48 batteries (like my car). Sorry if the text isn't very clear with .png, it wouldn't let me upload a .svg file with better resolution. Finally, before TeslafI come and get me, I do still love you TeslaFi and wouldn't leave home without you :)
What is the fleet degradation ?
 
Ohh don't get me wrong, I completely agree that it is not going to heat the battery and cannot heat the battery if it is sleeping.
Nope, I get that (that you already got that) !:)

I often wright the answers for a broader numbers of viewers, so in that context it might be good to be extra clear.

There also are quite some myths that need to be killed by extra clear facts ;)
I just thought there was a mechanism for the car to heat the battery without user direction, to prevent hard freezing the lithium pack.

I also heard a lot of rumors about that during the years. First time I heard it, I thought it sounded strange as the battery would soak out quite fast if the car is left for a few days. A lot of people could guarantee that the battery heating was on, like always.

A common idea is that the battery operation temperature is 40C and that the battery pack always holds that temp…

It took me about one day with the Tesla after I mounted SMT the day after getting my first Tesla to know these rumors actually are myths, at least for the refresh 2021- on model 3.
I do not know how the older model S worked, but Im sure a lot of that rumors are myths for these cars as well.

In some forum the myths are so hard established that the forum conclusion is that ”Your (my) car is broken”.

Theres a very common rumor about restarting the car with the buttons on the steering wheel but the manuals are really clear that the buttons do only restart the touch screen. The manual also tells that if the car behaves strange, it should be restarted by the menu - security - shut down the vehicle, and then wait for at least two minutes.
The swedish forum conclusion was that the manual was faulty and that the steering wheel buttons are the way to go 😂

I have been into cars since ~ 1984 when I built my first hobby car(still have it), and into Audis for like since ever. I have never seen so much misunderstanding and faulty rumors as with Tesla.
 
Hey guys!

I just got an 50-amp outlet installed, so I can get the full 32A/240V on the mobile connector.

Is 7.6kW enough to precondition the battery for winter? My garage is about 20-30F typically so far.
Most probably yes. (If the power is not enough, it’ll take everything fron the wall and the rest from the battery).

A schedules departure most often (always, if there is time) heats the battery first and the cabin after that, meaning that the power needed is not that high.

Starting the cabin hesting in the app on the button when the battery has cold soaked so battery heating is needed and the cabin is heating at the same time took ~12kW in my M3P (2 motors at 3kW each and the heat pump in lossy mode 6kW), as everything heats immediately.

20-30F will need battery heat if the car has been parked for long and not recently was charged. But a charge late technique will have the battery warmer than after a scheduled departure with battery heating so I would recommend that.
 
Most probably yes. (If the power is not enough, it’ll take everything fron the wall and the rest from the battery).

A schedules departure most often (always, if there is time) heats the battery first and the cabin after that, meaning that the power needed is not that high.

Starting the cabin hesting in the app on the button when the battery has cold soaked so battery heating is needed and the cabin is heating at the same time took ~12kW in my M3P (2 motors at 3kW each and the heat pump in lossy mode 6kW), as everything heats immediately.

20-30F will need battery heat if the car has been parked for long and not recently was charged. But a charge late technique will have the battery warmer than after a scheduled departure with battery heating so I would recommend that.
Ok! Awesome.

So I could schedule the battery to charge an hour before preconditioning starts and that would be the most efficient?

I leave for work at 7:15 and wake up at 6:40. My daily commute only requires a 45 minute charge at 7.6kW.
 
I heard they're full of holes
On one of the old Dean Martin roasts, or was it his appearance on SNL…but about 40 years ago Don Rickles made the same sort slip…when asking an audience member where they were from and the person answered Sweden, Don started in on holes in cheese but realized he had no Swedish meatball jokes handy.
 
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Ok! Awesome.

So I could schedule the battery to charge an hour before preconditioning starts and that would be the most efficient?

I leave for work at 7:15 and wake up at 6:40. My daily commute only requires a 45 minute charge at 7.6kW.
You could plan the charge to be ready shortly before the drive. How close in time is up to you
You’ll get the battery warmer from the charging, than a preconditioning.
There will be no need for a battery warming and the cabin heats very quick, so either use the scheduled departure to also chsrge the battery or schedule the charge by yourself and use the scheduked departure to heat the cabin in time (or just starting it manually 5-10minutes before the drive.
 
have not seen any annual change in range with teslafi, so I did not think that teslafi did it wrong, but the picture a few days back sure looked like they do.
I would guess I was wrong then. I knew Stats had switched over but I thought some of them had not. Maybe some cars just have BMS estimates that vary more with temperature even though it is supposed to be compensated for. (And the underlying actual capacity would not behave any differently.)

I still wonder about the reasons for the extracted energy differences at cold in EPA tests. I have a few theories but not sure which is right.
 
Nope, I get that (that you already got that) !:)

I often wright the answers for a broader numbers of viewers, so in that context it might be good to be extra clear.

There also are quite some myths that need to be killed by extra clear facts ;)


I also heard a lot of rumors about that during the years. First time I heard it, I thought it sounded strange as the battery would soak out quite fast if the car is left for a few days. A lot of people could guarantee that the battery heating was on, like always.

A common idea is that the battery operation temperature is 40C and that the battery pack always holds that temp…

It took me about one day with the Tesla after I mounted SMT the day after getting my first Tesla to know these rumors actually are myths, at least for the refresh 2021- on model 3.
I do not know how the older model S worked, but Im sure a lot of that rumors are myths for these cars as well.

In some forum the myths are so hard established that the forum conclusion is that ”Your (my) car is broken”.

Theres a very common rumor about restarting the car with the buttons on the steering wheel but the manuals are really clear that the buttons do only restart the touch screen. The manual also tells that if the car behaves strange, it should be restarted by the menu - security - shut down the vehicle, and then wait for at least two minutes.
The swedish forum conclusion was that the manual was faulty and that the steering wheel buttons are the way to go 😂

I have been into cars since ~ 1984 when I built my first hobby car(still have it), and into Audis for like since ever. I have never seen so much misunderstanding and faulty rumors as with Tesla.

I agree there a lot of myths out there that you, I and plenty of others have debunked using SMT and other data collection methods. Battery heating always being on would just be plain dumb and is pretty easily debunked at least starting with the Model 3 which is all I really know(2018 LR RWD Model 3).
 
Hey guys!

I just got a 50-amp outlet installed, so I can get the full 32A/240V on the mobile connector.

Is 7.6kW enough to precondition the battery for winter? My garage is about 20-30F typically so far.

Well lets ask some additional questions here... What exactly is your question? haha. If you are asking about preconditioning to ensure full regen capability then sure, given enough time.

Ok! Awesome.

So I could schedule the battery to charge an hour before preconditioning starts and that would be the most efficient?

I leave for work at 7:15 and wake up at 6:40. My daily commute only requires a 45 minute charge at 7.6kW.

Now this brings additional questions...Are you wanting to charge a cold soaked battery right before you leave? In this case, the answer is still sure 7.6kW is enough, again it's just a matter of time. Charging a cold soaked battery that is at 20-30F will waste a lot of that 7.6kW in just battery heating. It would how ever work better as a "preconditioning" method in order to have full regen capability. The problem is that there would be some testing required to figure out when you need to start charging to hit your SOC set point because the charge time estimate is not, well at this time does not account for any required battery heating.

Personally I charge when I get home so I don't waste time heating the battery in the morning and I accept the regen hit...or I route to a supercharger at the beginning of my drive to get some faster battery heating while I drive.
 
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I would guess I was wrong then.
I’m not sure about that?
The picture you answered looks mike you’re right, even if I did not ser it do not mean it doesnt happen?
I knew Stats had switched over but I thought some of them had not. Maybe some cars just have BMS estimates that vary more with temperature even though it is supposed to be compensated for. (And the underlying actual capacity would not behave any differently.)

I still wonder about the reasons for the extracted energy differences at cold in EPA tests. I have a few theories but not sure which is right.
The internal resistance increase when cold for sure!

The internal resistance increases quite much at lower temps (and reduces in the same way when we preheat for supercharging)

The specified energy (or Amp-hours) we get out of a cell is at a defined discharge rate at a specified cell temperature, most often 20-25 degrees Celcius.

The colder cell will have less efficiency and a larger part of the energy will burn up as heat.
For a test like the cold EPA test, a shorter drive would loose much more (by percent) than a complete 100-0% drive.
The internal resistance gives heat that heats the cell so cell temp will rise until the heat pump start using the heat to heat the cabin.
IMG_6396.jpeg



This is very easy to see with SMT, at summer temps with cell temps 15-20C or more the delta in nominal remaining correlates to the used/delivered energy.
Its actually the same in the winter, as long as the cell temps are not too low.

But when the heat pump has sucked the cell temp down to low numbers, the nominal start dropping faster than the delivered energy number on the cars screen.

Starting with a cold, not heated battery costs high heat losses in the batt!
 
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Yeah internal resistance was what I thought. Energy cannot just disappear.

But when the heat pump has sucked the cell temp down to low numbers, the nominal start dropping faster than the delivered energy number on the cars screen.
Yeah I was wondering about that - consistent with internal resistance increase.

My other idea was maybe it shuts down a bit sooner when cold. But would only be 1kWh or so, a small part of the difference.

For a test like the cold EPA test, a shorter drive would loose much more (by percent) than a complete 100-0% drive.
They do do charge depletion for this test.

Anyway the newer cars do better which accounts for part of the improvement in the magic scalar.
 
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