Range Loss Over Time, What Can Be Expected, Efficiency, How to Maintain Battery Health

[AAKEE]

Yes, and we know that obviously the S chemistry has drawbacks i.e. perhaps little degradaton but supercharger throtteling etc.
Where is the teslalogger data collected from?

I have had a look at the Model 3 longrange data and that seems to be roughly consistent with Teslafis average (i.e. 459km average at 50k kms)

Teslalogger collects data From People using scan My tesla and use the “send data” option, it get send over the
Mobile net and then the owner can use a raspbery pie to Collect data and view that at Home. Most data from
Scan My tesla can be sent so theres a lot of statistics to view at home.

@eivissa got me to try out teslalogger, Thanks for that

BTW, despite having used teslalogger for
about 6 Months, my degradation values can not be seen in the graph for M3P 2021. My values are way above the others but there are no dots from my car present.
Dunno why.

 

[Candleflame]

i wonder how often they update it. i.e. some cars dont have much data in the high milage list even though theres plenty of model 3s now with >100k kms.

 

[Bob Fernandez]

I have a ‘20 Model 3 and the maximum I can charge it to is 237 miles and I only get about 170 actual miles at an average of 242 Wh/mi

 

[Niroc]

Well, I do not own a type rating in the Kia Niro but:

The video show that the full charge voltage is 4.14V/cell.
For NMC622(which it seem to have) the full charge standard is 4.20V/cell.

This means, in plain words that the Niro seem to have a top buffer.

As NMC will degrade (from calendar aging) about the same as Teslas NCA cells we can be sure that degradation has happend.
If it do mot look like any degradation it is very probable that Kia hides the degradation by reducing the top buffer.
When it is done this way it will look like no degradation until the top buffer is eaten up, and after this it will show.

Tesla do not really hide any degradation as the do not have any top buffer.

If you had a choise of either;
-Buying 70kWh but newer being able to use more than 65 of these( but not seeing any degradation initially) or
-Buying 70kWh and being able to use all 70 initially.

What road would you choose?

Below is a chart from a research report ( there is a lot of this kind of research and they mainly tell us the same thing).

Teslas ”classic” battery is NCA. Model 3 in europe get NMC and maybe NCMA now.
Nito has NMC622 cells.( most common type of NMC in the recent years research)
We see that there is not a big difference in the degradation.
Kia can not stop the mechanic of degradation so they most certainly will degrade. But we might not see it initially because they probably have hodden this in the top buffer.

View attachment 779606

You are making an assumption about KIA and have a buffer. But the clear observation is that the Model NAC 2170 is crap. Here is the older Model 3 long range before the 2170. At 100,000 mile there is only 6% degradation.

Tesla Model 3 with 100,000 miles shows extreme low cost and minimal battery degradation

Today we take a look at one of the first Tesla Model 3 cars with 100,000 miles, and the owner’s...

electrek.co

 

[MP3Mike]

Here is the older Model 3 long begore the 2170. At 100,000 mile there is only 6% degradation.

Long before the 2170?

Every Model 3 is made with 2170 cells...

 

[Niroc]

Long before the 2170?

Every Model 3 is made with 2170 cells...

I meant Long range. And the early Models 3 did not have the 2170

 

[ran349]

For what I understand the SOC on the screen is the SMT "SOC Expected" , not the SMT "SOC".
example: SOC 53,1, SoC Expected 52,3 = SOC on Screen =53%
About 4,200v/cell:
It's a degraded battery the one showing LESS than 4,20? OR 4,20, it's always reached?
I mean: a degraded battery will shows less than 4,2?

I think you meant to say: "example: SOC 53.1, SOC Expected 52.3, = SOC on screen = 52%."

 

[AAKEE]

You are making an assumption about KIA and have a buffer. But the clear observation is that the Model NAC 2170 is crap. Here is the older Model 3 long range before the 2170. At 100,000 mile there is

The top buffer on Kia is a fact, otherwise the cell voltage would be 4.20V at 100% SOC. The video is very clear that it was charged to 100% and at the same time the voltage was 4.14V.

The assumption is that Kia use the top buffer to hide the initial degradation.
I would call that a qualified guess, as time will cause degradation on a NMC622 pack. There is no way around that with the technology of today( other than hiding it).

All Model 3 did have 2170 initially. There have not been any M3 with 18650.
All US built M3 had panasonic 2170 before they introduced LFP in the SR-versions.( The LFP cars use pouch cells).

The 2170 used the first version of panasonic 2170 until late 2020 when the 2170L was introduced.
I have a M3P ’21 with the 2170L(82kWh pack)
@35.000km today and no loss of range. Still full range att 100%.
The Nominal full pack is actually slightly higher today(80.9kWh) compared to the day after the delivery(80.6kWh).
I wouldnt call that crap.

From 2021, China built tesla get LG packs.
These are NMC (and maybe NMCA). The cells are LG M48 and M50 which also is 2170.

The M48 is NMC which most probably will degrade about the same as Teslas NCA.
The M50 is rumored to be NCMA, which is supposed to mix the best qualitiea from NCA and NMC, from this we do not know much yet. Its also possible that the M50 is NMC.

 

[SillyPosition]

I have a M3P ’21 with the 2170L(82kWh pack)
@35.000km today and no loss of range. Still full range att 100%.
The Nominal full pack is actually slightly higher today(80.9kWh) compared to the day after the delivery(80.6kWh).
I wouldnt call that crap.

How is it measured, using smt app?
I have a 2021 m3p as well, with same 82.1kwh battery
I don’t fee an apparent loss of range in my daily use, however the app shows nominal full pack of around 75.5kwh, meaning a loss of 8%, after 16000km.
I only recently got the obd adapter so I don’t know what was the estimation when car was new.
Charging habits are good as far as I can tell, and yet It seems I’m far far away from the condition you’re describing.
At 100% I get an estimate of 472-476km, in oppose your 506km when new.
However I was told a couple of times that the on screen estimation changed over the recent software updates from showing EPA range to daily real life range.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I have a ‘20 Model 3 and the maximum I can charge it to is 237 miles and I only get about 170 actual miles at an average of 242 Wh/mi

Impressive! I’m assuming an LR, not an SR+ (an SR+ is more likely I suppose). If it is a Performance, what wheel size do you have selected? Maybe you’ll make it to the warranty. You have 20% to 26.5% capacity loss, depending on the current wheel selection for the quoted 237mi at 100%. Wheel size is irrelevant unless it is a Performance.

 

[AAKEE]

How is it measured, using smt app?
I have a 2021 m3p as well, with same 82.1kwh battery
I don’t fee an apparent loss of range in my daily use, however the app shows nominal full pack of around 75.5kwh, meaning a loss of 8%, after 16000km.
I only recently got the obd adapter so I don’t know what was the estimation when car was new.
Charging habits are good as far as I can tell, and yet It seems I’m far far away from the condition you’re describing.
At 100% I get an estimate of 472-476km, in oppose your 506km when new.
However I was told a couple of times that the on screen estimation changed over the recent software updates from showing EPA range to daily real life range.

I have both teslafi and SMT. I see 507km on the screen, the same as when the car was new(after a update about on year ago, initially 499/500km was max range) which is the EPA range. I have seen 508-509km range when i had a NFP of 81.5-81.6kWh and reached 82.0kWh nominal remaining.

For you, 75.5kWh should equal about 475km at a max charge, as each km on the range is 159wh. Do you know the range at full charge when the car was new ?

I do not think you have lost 8%, I guess you had less than 82kWh capacity accordning to the BMS. Most M3P start between 80 and 80,5 I think.

How is your charging habits ? What SOC do you charge to daily ? Is your M3P China built ? There is another english ‘21 M3P with similar NFP as your car, despite low miles. Do you have Full Pack When New = 82.1 kWh?

This is my teslafi data so far:

 

[KenC]

Check this out. A Kia Niro that has gone over 90,000 KM with 1% degradation. But you are OK to lose 11% of capacity after 14,000 miles for an expensive Tesla. A cheap KIA doesn't have that issue. Gee, I wonder why?

Great result! Is that typical or an outlier? As noted, it showed 4.14V as 100%, so the top buffer is larger than on a 3. The video showed him charging at 70kW, so maybe fast charging isn't at Supercharger rates, which contributes to deg.

If the Kia is an outlier, then Tesla has outliers too. Mine, for example. My 2018 LR-AWD has over 31k miles, and it still shows the original EPA-rated miles of 310. According to Stats, my car is only 91%ile, meaning that there are 9% of similar models with better range. I didn't believe it, but I asked the developer and he said he's comparing my 2018 with 2018 LR-AWD models.

Up to about 20k miles, the Stats developer used the SOC api that varied with temps. After 20k, he switched to the SOC api that shouldn't vary with temp. As you can see, my estimated range has been very solid at around 310miles, the original estimate.

In recent weeks, as early spring temps have hit, my estimated range has varied from 307 to 314 miles. Should be temp agnostic, but still shows a tiny bit of variation.

Here, the developer shows a new datapoint that my 3 is only 91%ile to similar 3s with similar mileage. So, there are 9% 2018 LR-AWD who have the Stats app, that have better estimated EPA-range than me, and mine shows zero reported deg.

So, Tesla has outliers too. Would be nice if all Teslas did as well, but perhaps the cold environment in Maine helps, and keeping it at 60% SOC for my daily commute helps too. Who knows?

 

[michael805]

What’s the latest thinking on how bad frequent supercharging is for your battery (compared to
regular level 2 charging, etc)?


I’ll likely be supercharging my LR M3 a lot, but not taking it above 80 percent, when I get my 3LR. Curious if this is still a significant factor on long term degradation..

 

[Candleflame]

What’s the latest thinking on how bad frequent supercharging is for your battery (compared to
regular level 2 charging, etc)?


I’ll likely be supercharging my LR M3 a lot, but not taking it above 80 percent, when I get my 3LR. Curious if this is still a significant factor on long term degradation..

irrelevant compared to battery lottery and time based degradation

 

[SillyPosition]

I have both teslafi and SMT. I see 507km on the screen, the same as when the car was new(after a update about on year ago, initially 499/500km was max range) which is the EPA range. I have seen 508-509km range when i had a NFP of 81.5-81.6kWh and reached 82.0kWh nominal remaining.

For you, 75.5kWh should equal about 475km at a max charge, as each km on the range is 159wh. Do you know the range at full charge when the car was new ?

I do not think you have lost 8%, I guess you had less than 82kWh capacity accordning to the BMS. Most M3P start between 80 and 80,5 I think.

How is your charging habits ? What SOC do you charge to daily ? Is your M3P China built ? There is another english ‘21 M3P with similar NFP as your car, despite low miles. Do you have Full Pack When New = 82.1 kWh?

This is my teslafi data so far:


View attachment 779874

On 80% charge I usually get an estimate of 382km, and with 100% it varies around 472-476km, where as original it stated 505-506km.
I started using teslamate shortly after having the car (300km after)
When you are asking if I know the range when it was new - I assume you mean the displayed range, and it was 505-506km.
Also I can show this from my teslamate graphs:

Also, can see charging habbits over time (range versus charging levels):

I have a 1 phase 16amps 230v charger at home, the mobile charger from tesla, so I charge frequently, mostly to 80%, obviously some peaks to 90-100%, and usually recharge at 40-50%, yet obviously sometimes below. Had two occurances where I started charging only at 4%, and 9%.
Super charging about 20% at the time, only when had a long trips and had to, even though its free right now in my area, and there is a supercharger really close-by
All of my charges are done towards my departure, so it never hangs too much on high SoC, although I did have some times where I left it at 80% for a day or two. When I went abroad I tried leaving it at around 60% charge (this can be seen by comparing both graphs above, you can see a straight line of mileage)

Re your last questions - I usually charge to 80%, and its US built (vin starts with 5YJ).
In the last screenshot I kept of SMT (I wanted to see the values I would get at 100%, although it didnt finish calibrating), taken at 15300km~, I see:
Nominal full pack: 75.6kwh
Energy buffer: 3.40kwh
SOC: 101%
SOC expected: 100%
Full pack when new: 82.1kwh
Cell imbalance: 6mV

I usually drive gentle since daily car and family car, and usually heavy traffic, but its a performance model and I live in a hilly terrain, so lots of ups and downs...I do flat out when in the mood
My average consumption based on the screen trips (trip B was never reset), is 190kwh.
It can also be seen (by an estimate, since its via tesla api) in teslamate:

Do you think that If I would plug an OBD reader when car was new, I would see to begin with a lower SoH (Nominal full pack) than 82.1?
Doesn't it mean that there is quite a variation between delivered cars? I would expect that all batteries will come with similar capacity, but if there is even 2-3kwh difference, its quite a big one, since it projects to 15-20km of EPA range.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I didn't believe it, but I asked the developer and he said he's comparing my 2018 with 2018 LR-AWD models.

I still don't believe this statement from the developer. I don't think he's taken a close look at what you're asking. That distribution looks suspiciously perfectly normal. It's possible that he is just plotting the Gaussian distribution with a mean and standard deviation matching to the actual sample distribution (which will of course be right-hand censored). And then he's assigning you a percentile based on that distribution.

I'm not saying there aren't other vehicles out there doing about the same as yours - I bet there are a few.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

What’s the latest thinking on how bad frequent supercharging is for your battery (compared to
regular level 2 charging, etc)?


I’ll likely be supercharging my LR M3 a lot, but not taking it above 80 percent, when I get my 3LR. Curious if this is still a significant factor on long term degradation..

As mentioned it's probably insignificant though no one really knows. Be aware than in the past Tesla has limited supercharging rate after enough supercharging cycles (on some other vehicle models, possibly for specific pack types). So it's best to reserve supercharging for when you really need it. We don't know whether or not such a scenario will arise for Model 3 in the next few years.

Of course, if you have no other choice to make the vehicle work for you, definitely just Supercharge.

(Supercharging is of course typically a lot more expensive than L2 charging, too.)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Do you think that If I would plug an OBD reader when car was new, I would see to begin with a lower SoH (Nominal full pack) than 82.1?

You would have seen about 80.5kWh, within about 0.3-0.5kWh of the ~81kWh max most Performance saw (there is a distribution, with notable exceptions, but typically they'd end up, when new, just a tiny bit under 81kWh). All 82.1kWh "FPWN" (which no vehicle obtains).

 

[AAKEE]

On 80% charge I usually get an estimate of 382km, and with 100% it varies around 472-476km, where as original it stated 505-506km.

505-506km means a capacity(nominal remaining) of 80.3-80.5kWh if this was checked at a full 100% charge.
Each km on the screen is 159Wh.

For teslafi it underestimates the range slightly by only getting the whole number of the SOC. I would guess the most API-driven apps will do the same thing as they probably only get the whole percentage without decimals.
If the range was checked in any app that use the API the real capacity could have been slightly higher.

I started using teslamate shortly after having the car (300km after)
When you are asking if I know the range when it was new - I assume you mean the displayed range, and it was 505-506km.
Also I can show this from my teslamate graphs:
View attachment 780099
Also, can see charging habbits over time (range versus charging levels):
View attachment 780100
so I charge frequently, mostly to 80%, obviously some peaks to 90-100%, and usually recharge at 40-50%, yet obviously sometimes below. Had two occurances where I started charging only at 4%, and 9%.
Super charging about 20% at the time, only when had a long trips and had to, even though its free right now in my area, and there is a supercharger really close-by

I’m also at around 18-20% SuC. I always preheat, as it should keep the bad things that happen( lithium plating) to a minimum.

Supercharging itself doenat seem to cause much degradation this early in M3 cars.

All of my charges are done towards my departure, so it never hangs too much on high SoC,

Thats good.
For the slightly low NFP, is it possible that the BMS have lost the track of the battery capacity? Have you been sown to one-digit SOC? It might be an idea to let the BMS see low SOC and to let the car sleep(sentry off, no checking in the Tesla app) with it, preferably over a night or at least a couple of hours. It could also be an idea to let it charge to full after showing the low side to let the BMS see the capacity.

Do you have Sentry mode on at home?
It could be a good thing to have it off at least some nights or some periods each week. Also to check that it can sleep properly when using teslamate.

Do you think that If I would plug an OBD reader when car was new, I would see to begin with a lower SoH (Nominal full pack) than 82.1?

As per above, the capacity (per BMS) should have been about 80.3-80.5 with max range 505-506km@100% SOC.

Doesn't it mean that there is quite a variation between delivered cars? I would expect that all batteries will come with similar capacity, but if there is even 2-3kwh difference,

We saw that the BMS most probable did judge your capacity at about 80.3-80.5 kWh, that seem to be in the middle of the normal.
Most 2021 performance, at least the US built have been between 80.0 and 80.5, a few closer to 81kWh.
The 82.1kWh battery actually delivered 82kWh in the EPA test so I would guess that the BMS underestimates the 2170L cell when the battery is new. This could be due to the changed chemistry in no the 2170L (“+5% capacity”). As Tesla use a small “range buffer” that allow the capacity to reduce to about 80.6-80.7 kWh before the range drops it dosnt matter, as we should only see range without SMT etc.

There is a lot of M3P ‘21 that is showing about 75kWh these days.

[Edit] I did take a look at your probable average SOC and it look like its not very much below 80%. I didnt get the manufacturing date or when you did get the car, but if we assume that you had the car about one year, a 5-6% calendar aging is not improbable. You live in England, so not that hot climate . (Not that cold either, as I have close to the Polar Circle).

If we cut 6% with the calculator from your 80.3-80.5 we end up at about 75.6 kWh.
It might be a coincidence that this is what the car shows.

 

[AAKEE]

As mentioned it's probably insignificant though no one really knows. Be aware than in the past Tesla has limited supercharging rate after enough supercharging cycles (on some other vehicle models, possibly for specific pack types). So it's best to reserve supercharging for when you really need it. We don't know whether or not such a scenario will arise for Model 3 in the next few years.

Of course, if you have no other choice to make the vehicle work for you, definitely just Supercharge.

We already have some good data.

The youtuber ”Teslabjörn” did a degradation test on his M3 Performance at 80.000km. (Actually he did a couple, from new car until he sold it at 80.000km).
From first at new to 80K km he lost 8% capacity. Tested by driving from 100% SOC to almost 0%.

He had 11813kWh DC-charging (and 7995kWh AC) of which the most part was SuC as I understand it. This means he have Supercharged 60% of all the charging at 80K km. 11813kWh equals some 200 supercharging cycles with big cycles so probably more than 200 sessions.

At the end of the vid he is charging after the degradation test at 73.4% SOC at 75kWh charging power. That is spot on on the V3 advertised power curve!

I think this show us that the battery itself doesnt get hurt that much by SuC and this also probably means that Tesla will not reduce the charging speed in the future at least as long as the battery havent degraded more.
20% degradation is the limit the researchers use as they mean the end of life is about there. We often see that the curves bend downwards after reaching 20% degradation. Maybe tesla reduce the SuC speed there ( I would probably).