-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
NikeWings
Active Member
My guess is ^^ speed too slow, also cut ext temp in half and double the winds this time of year.Really?
EVTripPlanner estimates that you will use 392 rated miles for that trip (parameters: speed 1.25x, cabin temp 70, ext temp 90, wind 10mph). You would use 240RM to Barstow and 152RM from Barstow to Murrieta.
I have found EVTripPlanner to be pretty accurate - is it not in this case?
That said, I went LA to San Diego and back on 90% charge today. I do it weekly, no SCs needed. Arrive home usually between 30-40 rated miles. Today I arrived home with only 17 probably due to hail, winds and rain, then it was crispy cool most of the drive down. I avg 70mph inclusive of traffic slow downs. I charge at home and don't use EVtrip planner.
Buddyroe
Active Member
I'll just say that I'd be extremely happy with 1000 miles of range. Then I could drive on the interstate at normal speeds (80!). You simply can't have too much range if you ever leave your home town. More miles, less charging and less anxiety.
Same with superchargers. More the better. Even one at at least one gas at every exist of the interstate. How nice it would be to travel in an EV and start thinking about charging with like 50 to 100 miles of range left and you simply decide which exit is best - exactly like you do when you drive a gas car. When we can do that, EVs will be MUCH more accepted.
Same with superchargers. More the better. Even one at at least one gas at every exist of the interstate. How nice it would be to travel in an EV and start thinking about charging with like 50 to 100 miles of range left and you simply decide which exit is best - exactly like you do when you drive a gas car. When we can do that, EVs will be MUCH more accepted.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
1000 miles would seem like over-kill...when you would be able to charge overnight at your destination, or your hotel stop. I make a ~600 mile trip to my parents a couple times a year, and that 10 hrs on the road is more than enough driving for me in a single day.
My take on it is the 90% range is the most important.
That's what you're going to charge the vast majority of the time, and on the rare occasion (distance, weather, etc) you need the extra 10% it will be there for you. Unless you're in a particularly bad situation you're always going to have over 225 miles of range with a 100D. Even in a bad situation you can modulate your speed to maintain the expected range (to a degree).
No matter what you do you'll find that you end up in the exact same situation. Where you're on a road trip, and you want to skip a supercharger or two, but you're 20 miles short.
So as long as you get a 90 (with some discount) or a 100 I wouldn't stress out too much. The 70KW is enough for my daily uses, but leaves me wanting for road trips. Mostly because neither Seattle nor Portland have SC's yet.
I wouldn't count on an 120kw battery being available until after the $7500 tax rebate has already expired. I haven't seen any mention or any rumors of a 120KW battery.
If I was going to buy this year I'd probably try to target the March-May time frame with the expectation that EAP will be much further along, and we'll have some really good feedback on whether it performs well in a variety of weather conditions.
That's what you're going to charge the vast majority of the time, and on the rare occasion (distance, weather, etc) you need the extra 10% it will be there for you. Unless you're in a particularly bad situation you're always going to have over 225 miles of range with a 100D. Even in a bad situation you can modulate your speed to maintain the expected range (to a degree).
No matter what you do you'll find that you end up in the exact same situation. Where you're on a road trip, and you want to skip a supercharger or two, but you're 20 miles short.
So as long as you get a 90 (with some discount) or a 100 I wouldn't stress out too much. The 70KW is enough for my daily uses, but leaves me wanting for road trips. Mostly because neither Seattle nor Portland have SC's yet.
I wouldn't count on an 120kw battery being available until after the $7500 tax rebate has already expired. I haven't seen any mention or any rumors of a 120KW battery.
If I was going to buy this year I'd probably try to target the March-May time frame with the expectation that EAP will be much further along, and we'll have some really good feedback on whether it performs well in a variety of weather conditions.
roblab
Active Member
Exactly! And if I were doing that drive, and had any concern at all about arriving with questionable reserve, you know what? I could SLOW DOWN to maybe 69 mph and pick up a few more miles.
What I see here is that people are unable to drive at less than ten mph over the limit, and then have to drive to and sit at a charger for an hour, and somehow that is faster than dropping into the next lane over and lowering the cruise control speed a couple mph.
Huh? 3-4 years? What planet you living on? Sorry to be judgmental, but there's no way it takes 4 years for the S to catch up with the 3. No way it takes longer than 14 months. And, I'd wager you it is < 6 months
Its an absolute tested and verified fact that your best and fastest charging is to start low and fill to 75% or less. Little difference between 75-90%, slightly bigger progressively until you get to the last 2%. It can take as long to fill that last 2% as the first 30%. Of course, the specifics of these numbers vary with battery and ambient temperature, amongst other factors.
So, arrive at the Supercharger battery warm but not hot, at a Supercharger that is similarly warm but not hot, SoC < 50%, use a non-paired charger or one thats paired with someone far into the taper, and as soon as your SoC reaches your next stop + a margin of 10-30% or your charge rate is < 60 mph move on. While you're there, invest that time doing something like a snack break, bathroom break, take a walk, answer emails so you're not wasting time, and you can make your destination on time, refreshed, and ready to go.
I don't think it will take 4 years for the S to catch up to the 3. As a matter of fact, I think the 3 will have a smaller battery pack and possibly LESS range than a 100D or 90D, even at the high end. The issue (as has been discussed in these forum many times) is that the S and X won't likely get 2170 batteries for 3+ years. That is because ALL of the Gigafactory's output will be going to Powerpacks, Powerwalls and the Model 3s so that the Model 3 can hit its price point. The Model 3 has not been designed for 18650 batteries, the pack design only exists for 2170s. Combine that with the huge contract Tesla signed for 18650 batteries with Panasonic that runs through at least 2018 and they still are committed to buying about 1 BILLION more 18650s, would lead one to believe that they will keep buying them and using them for the S and X, with a major car redesign/upgrade/new battery pack coming out sometime in 2019.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion (and even being judgemental if you want), it's no skin off my nose. But read the recent posts by me and others analyzing the state of battery production capability combined with the contracts Tesla has signed and is obligated to honor and that is the only reasonable conclusion that makes logical sense...at least on the planet I live on.
I also am NOT saying it takes 4 years for the S to "catch up" with the 3 (whatever that means). What I am saying is that it is likely that the 3 (coming out in 2017) will have a battery pack utilizing 2170 cells while the S packs will likely continue using 18650 cells until at least 2019 because (a) there aren't enough 2170s for both and (b) Tesla has to buy the 18650s and use them somewhere and the only place they are saying they are going to use them for the next few years is S and X models. But what the heck do I know?
Missile Toad
MSLR Wht/Blk/19 | OD 6/10/21 | RN11512
Per this 2009 study of U.S. driving habits, 0.1% trips are in the 80+ mile range. Can EVs handle the distances we drive? - A Study As always, McScrooge and Rich Uncle Pennybags will do more, or take their private jets.
I'm not sure the term 'point of diminishing returns' applies here. The 100 battery has a usable capacity of 98 kWh. My battery (old 85) has 71 kWh usable capacity left. That's 38% more range. For daily driving it makes no difference. On very busy days I drive maybe 150 miles a day, so having a larger battery really doesn't help in any way for my daily driving.
For road trips, it makes a big difference, though. I drove 50k miles on long road trips and those 38% more capacity would have made a significant difference.
Keep in mind, that extra capacity weighs a lot more too. That, I think, is what was meant by diminishing returns. The more capacity you add, the more the car weighs and the more power it takes to accelerate.
+1 -- that's why Elon has said he doesn't see going much more over a 100kWh pack given SWAP (size, weight, power issues). Increasing energy density can get more power into a given size and weight (hence the movement towards 2170 cells), but there isn't a reasonable path to going much higher right now without significantly increasing weight (which then reduces range counterbalancing out the added range from the additional cells). That's why it appears 100 kWh is about the optimum mix given current technology.
NikeWings
Active Member
I'm not saying it won't eventually happen, or that Elon doesn't have a desire to do it. He is on the record as saying that, given the current technology, 100 kWh appears about optimal and that the area where he expects to see biggest return on investment now isn't on making bigger packs, but on decreasing the time it takes to charge them.
My comments were in response to the original poster's question about what the optimum range is (presumably today). People who say the optimum range is "as much as you can get" don't understand tradeoffs. There are ALWAYS tradeoffs with respect to size, weight and power. At present, the highest energy density material we can use in transportation vehicles is gasoline. Even there, we don't make cars that have giant 1000 gallon fuel tanks giving them a 25000 mile range because it isn't optimal. All of that fuel takes space (size) and adds weight meaning you use even more fuel to move it. Elon most certainly understands this because this is what systems engineering is all about. I'm not so sure all of the posters in these forums do....
My comments were in response to the original poster's question about what the optimum range is (presumably today). People who say the optimum range is "as much as you can get" don't understand tradeoffs. There are ALWAYS tradeoffs with respect to size, weight and power. At present, the highest energy density material we can use in transportation vehicles is gasoline. Even there, we don't make cars that have giant 1000 gallon fuel tanks giving them a 25000 mile range because it isn't optimal. All of that fuel takes space (size) and adds weight meaning you use even more fuel to move it. Elon most certainly understands this because this is what systems engineering is all about. I'm not so sure all of the posters in these forums do....
I would start a company that will rent out "larger batteries" for road trips. Have a 100KW or so battery fully charged waiting for your MS60D at the start of your trip. 10 mins battery swap and you get going. Come back 2, 10 or 40 days later, and swap back to your fully charged 60KW pack. The 100KW battery packs could perhaps be charged a $/mile rental fee (something that makes business sense, and takes into account that customers don't have to buy the 100KW premium - $30K over 60KW cars).
We could start with shops at the high Tesla ownership cities. Any takers?
If we start this, then we can even buy some 100KW battery packs from existing 100D owners for 60KW retrofit and get some money back (at least those owners might sell if they bought 100KW only for range needs).
We could start with shops at the high Tesla ownership cities. Any takers?
If we start this, then we can even buy some 100KW battery packs from existing 100D owners for 60KW retrofit and get some money back (at least those owners might sell if they bought 100KW only for range needs).
Alex D
Member
I think it's pretty easy...
If you do a lot of long drives to other cities or even States, by all means get the biggest battery you can afford.
If you're mostly driving locally, the lowest 60 is sufficient for 98% of people.
The average daily mileage per car/person is around 40 miles/day (in the US).
If you do a lot of long drives to other cities or even States, by all means get the biggest battery you can afford.
If you're mostly driving locally, the lowest 60 is sufficient for 98% of people.
The average daily mileage per car/person is around 40 miles/day (in the US).
There are 16% more cells in the 100 over the 85 battery. Let's say that equates to about 6-7% higher total weight of the car. Now go to EVTripplanner.com, pick a route and play with the payload setting to see how much changing weight affects the range and energy consumption. You'd be surprised how little of a difference it makes.
@David99 -- we're not talking about an issue of diminishing returns between an 85 and 100. It's diminishing returns for those who say we need a 500 mile battery pack...with existing technology that is a LOT more weight. I'm also not sure the EVTripplanner weight adjustments are that accurate...that seems to be the most inaccurate part of their model.
Similar threads
