Reuters: "Tesla readies revamped Model 3 with project 'Highland' -sources" [projected 3rd quarter 2023]

[Phido]

Ventilated seats would be an easy change to make. Sitting in vinyl seats for 4+ hrs, having some air move around would be nice on the body parts touching surfaces. Other cars, other electric cars, offer this, at cheaper price points.

I think the model 3/Y refresh is going to be pretty minor. Its a good product that just needs a refresh, price cut and a tweak to remain competitive.

I am hoping in the next 5 years there is a more substantial redesign and refresh. But then, self driving, battery technology, entertainment capabilities will have moved a fair bit forward.

 

[Evpowerdan]

That would be a huge upgrade over the current seats. Or at least offer a perforated version so there's some type of airflow.

On the other hand, people don't realize how bad the seats are until they own the car.

I have only owned one vehicle with ventilated seats. Makes a difference on hot days, but more so is a strong AC system to keep the inside cool. This would be an easy upgrade to the revised model.

Re-vamp the bumpers, wheels, seats with ventilation, specific elements for the performance model (different semi-flat bottom steering wheel, more bolstered sport seats, black headliner, HUD to name a few).

 

[Evpowerdan]

Ventilated seats would be an easy change to make. Sitting in vinyl seats for 4+ hrs, having some air move around would be nice on the body parts touching surfaces. Other cars, other electric cars, offer this, at cheaper price points.

I think the model 3/Y refresh is going to be pretty minor. Its a good product that just needs a refresh, price cut and a tweak to remain competitive.

I am hoping in the next 5 years there is a more substantial redesign and refresh. But then, self driving, battery technology, entertainment capabilities will have moved a fair bit forward.

Agree - the revised model my bet is going to have more features of a main stream $40k-$50K price range. Also, probably make it a little different looking - to appeal to 1st time buyers and get current owners a reason to upgrade.

Technology and battery design will change in the next 3-5 years - but so should nationwide charging. I still don't get why businesses put in a 3-7kWh chargers.- just a waste of money, time and real estate. Why even hook up on a level 1 charger when out and about? The floor/bare minimum should be Level 2 with at least 30-40kWh.

 

[Bouba]

While ventilated seats are an easy upgrade and would be nice...I’ve never had a problem with my M3 (white) seats...the air con just works so well...I live in a hot place (South of France) and wear shorts practically all year...and if you looked at me you’d say that looks like a guy who would stick to anything

 

[brkaus]

Technology and battery design will change in the next 3-5 years - but so should nationwide charging. I still don't get why businesses put in a 3-7kWh chargers.- just a waste of money, time and real estate. Why even hook up on a level 1 charger when out and about? The floor/bare minimum should be Level 2 with at least 30-40kWh.

People are expecting it to be free. Slower charge saves money. Most businesses don’t have enough profit to fill up anyone that stops in. Of course this will change too over time.

 

[Evpowerdan]

People are expecting it to be free. Slower charge saves money. Most businesses don’t have enough profit to fill up anyone that stops in. Of course this will change too over time.

Wrong expectation. You don't get gas for free - even if it pumped out at 1oz per minute.

It's just a waste of resources - doesn't cost that much to put in a level 2 - frapping charge for the usage. Hard to get to mass adoption without this component, let alone more power stations to offset in the increase in demand (at home or outside your home).

 

[Bouba]

Agree - the revised model my bet is going to have more features of a main stream $40k-$50K price range. Also, probably make it a little different looking - to appeal to 1st time buyers and get current owners a reason to upgrade.

Technology and battery design will change in the next 3-5 years - but so should nationwide charging. I still don't get why businesses put in a 3-7kWh chargers.- just a waste of money, time and real estate. Why even hook up on a level 1 charger when out and about? The floor/bare minimum should be Level 2 with at least 30-40kWh.

Slow chargers mean the staff stay in the office working...instead of spending time in the car park juggling cars.
And supermarket customers can spend their time and money leisurely shopping not rushing out so they don’t incur a penalty.....and car parks by the beach, or restaurants etc means you can plug in and enjoy your day

 

[GregD60]

I still don't get why businesses put in a 3-7kWh chargers.- just a waste of money, time and real estate. Why even hook up on a level 1 charger when out and about? The floor/bare minimum should be Level 2 with at least 30-40kWh.

Level 1 chargers max out at 2.4kW. 3kW to 7kW chargers are in the Level 2 bracket. Level 2 maxes out at 19kW. To get a higher charging rate than that, you have to use a DC fast charger. Those are expensive, many thousands to hundreds of thousands of dollars, require specialized electrical hookups, and are not something that make sense for most businesses to install.

Complete Breakdown of the Three Levels of Electric Car Charging

Find out about the three levels of EV charging and how the charging speed of your car is determined by a number of factors

getneocharge.com

 

[brkaus]

It's just a waste of resources - doesn't cost that much to put in a level 2 - frapping charge for the usage. Hard to get to mass adoption without this component, let alone more power stations to offset in the increase in demand (at home or outside your home).

But stations that charge have a high initial cost and monthly costs. It starts to become “why bother” for small businesses.

Hopefully the WC3 with billing is reasonably priced and becomes more widespread.

 

[3sr+buyer]

Technology and battery design will change in the next 3-5 years - but so should nationwide charging. I still don't get why businesses put in a 3-7kWh chargers.- just a waste of money, time and real estate. Why even hook up on a level 1 charger when out and about? The floor/bare minimum should be Level 2 with at least 30-40kWh.

3-7kW is typically on 240V, which is typically called "level 2".

Businesses put in those types of charging stations because:

• They want to attract shoppers, restaurant diners, and hotel guests who will stay for a while, instead of leaving after a short time.
• They are less expensive to install than DC fast charging.
• The amount of electricity given is less than for DC fast charging, so the business' electric bill is less if it is subsidizing the charging.
• Level 2 charging in the US can be J1772 to serve essentially all EVs, since non-J1772 EVs (Teslas) all come with a J1772 adapter. But, until SuperChargers with Magic Docks become the norm, DC fast charging is more difficult to be universal to all EVs in the US (most SuperChargers are unusable by CCS1 cars, while CCS1 excludes older Teslas and requires newer Teslas to use an optional adapter that not everyone has).

On the other hand, there were places where charging stations were inappropriately slow for the location. A few years ago, there were some road trip corridors where most of the DC fast charging stations were only 24kW, so the ratio of time spent driving to charging with those was only 1.5-2 to 1.

 

[SigNC]

Maybe it's somewhere in this thread already but please please convert the cabin air filter setup to what the Y has. I know there were claimed space constraints but keeping the mildew inducing current design is huge miss if not corrected.

 

[brkaus]

Maybe it's somewhere in this thread already but please please convert the cabin air filter setup to what the Y has. I know there were claimed space constraints but keeping the mildew inducing current design is huge miss if not corrected.

Does the Y fix it?

 

[texas_star_TM3]

Does the Y fix it?

i dont think it does... at least not pre Austin production. 2 friends with a Y have the musky odor where ironically my 2019 model 3 doesnt have it

 

[DrChaos]

Why even hook up on a level 1 charger when out and about? The floor/bare minimum should be Level 2 with at least 30-40kWh.

How many cars accept AC charging at 30 kW?

The maximum easily achievable L2 charging is voltage times amps. In USA, the standard common voltage is 240V or 208V in common commercial areas and the typical max amperage is 40. 240V * 40 = 9.6 kW which is the most you ever see on a L2 in USA. In EU with three phases you can get somewhat more, but the US L2 standard port doesn't have three phases. Don't know if the Tesla can do three phase AC either but I haven't heard of it.

To get beyond that you need to go to a DCFC and that's much much more expensive because that now has to have the high power charging and control circuits that are otherwise in the car (at lower capacity). And you'll need a 480V high current input, something very few commercial sites (which cater to customers and aren't heavy industry) have as a supply. Realistically that means an entirely new transformer from the utility (expensive) and a direct connection to the secondary voltage at 12 kV. So that also means expensive engineering planning and coordination with the utility to install and inspections and all that, and if you're going that far, you make it a paid DC charging station.

In sum: there's no inexpensive and practical way to have a 30 kW at the supermarket.

 

[Evpowerdan]

How many cars accept AC charging at 30 kW?

The maximum easily achievable L2 charging is voltage times amps. In USA, the standard common voltage is 240V or 208V in common commercial areas and the typical max amperage is 40. 240V * 40 = 9.6 kW which is the most you ever see on a L2 in USA. In EU with three phases you can get somewhat more, but the US L2 standard port doesn't have three phases. Don't know if the Tesla can do three phase AC either but I haven't heard of it.

To get beyond that you need to go to a DCFC and that's much much more expensive because that now has to have the high power charging and control circuits that are otherwise in the car (at lower capacity). And you'll need a 480V high current input, something very few commercial sites (which cater to customers and aren't heavy industry) have as a supply. Realistically that means an entirely new transformer from the utility (expensive) and a direct connection to the secondary voltage at 12 kV. So that also means expensive engineering planning and coordination with the utility to install and inspections and all that, and if you're going that far, you make it a paid DC charging station.

In sum: there's no inexpensive and practical way to have a 30 kW at the supermarket.

You should run for the energy secretary - as they appear to have no clue the infrastructure needed to go mass adoption in their plan.

L2 chargers operate at 208-240 V and output anywhere from 3 kW to 19 kW of AC power. This power output translates to 18-28 miles of range per hour. An average EV can be fully charged in 8 hours or less. What I meant a is to get as high in that KW range for L2 as possible.

 

[DrChaos]

You should run for the energy secretary - as they appear to have no clue the infrastructure needed to go mass adoption in their plan.

L2 chargers operate at 208-240 V and output anywhere from 3 kW to 19 kW of AC power. This power output translates to 18-28 miles of range per hour. An average EV can be fully charged in 8 hours or less. What I meant a is to get as high in that KW range for L2 as possible.

How many EVs being sold today can do more than 12 kW on single-phase AC power (240V * 48A) as available in USA?

9.6 is the highest that is reasonably available, 240V * 40 A.

 

[GregD60]

How many cars accept AC charging at 30 kW?

I think the maximum AC charging rate that any EVs have worked with is 19.2kW, 240 volts at 80 amps. Some of the older Tesla Model S's and some Ford Lightnings will support this rate. Other than the Lightning, I don't think any other currently produced EV supports more than 11.5 kW charging, 240 volts at 48 amps. The 11.5kW rate is supported by all current Teslas except for the RWD Model 3, at least here in the United States.

P.S. The Lucid Air is supposed to have 19.2kW charging capability, and Rivians are good for 11.5kW. I believe there are a number of other currently produced EVs that also support the 11.5kW rate.

P.P.S. I don't know which car has the highest AC charge rate in miles per hour, but a Tesla Model 3 has to be one of the leaders at 44 miles per hour when connected to an 11.5kW charger.

 

[Phido]

Technology and battery design will change in the next 3-5 years - but so should nationwide charging. I still don't get why businesses put in a 3-7kWh chargers.- just a waste of money, time and real estate. Why even hook up on a level 1 charger when out and about? The floor/bare minimum should be Level 2 with at least 30-40kWh.

Is that a thing in the US?

Level 1 chargers max out at 2.4kW. 3kW to 7kW chargers are in the Level 2 bracket. Level 2 maxes out at 19kW. To get a higher charging rate than that, you have to use a DC fast charger. Those are expensive, many thousands to hundreds of thousands of dollars, require specialized electrical hookups, and are not something that make sense for most businesses to install.

Again that would be in the US only.

In Australia all power points are on 20 amp circuits and a fairly common practice is to charge at 15 amps at 240v. Technically anything more than a 10 amp socket needs to be on a dedicated circuit. This makes the bare minimum 3.6Kw. I can drive pretty much anywhere in Australia, and unless they are running a kettle or a iron off the same circuit at the same time (most houses are broken up to 3-4 circuits for power points), I can draw 3.6Kw all day. Most fuse boxes on the side of houses, are located at the front (for easy meter reading and servicing) and have a socket, so nearly every house has a 3.6Kw socket ready to go, in a water proof box at the front of every suburban house.

Every powered camping ground in Australia has 15 amp 240v sockets to every site. So again 3.6Kw is literally free and available everywhere.

In Australia 3 Phase is very common. As it is in most of Europe. In Austria, every home is 3 phase. So in many countries, the minimum charging speed would be between 3.5Kw and 11Kw.

Tesla (and the US) needs to properly embrace 3 phase power.

The tesla charger can be had with 3 phase tails with 20 or 32 amp pins.

Tesla Gen2 Mobile Connector Adaptor - EVchargers - EV cables and adaptors

Tesla Gen2 Mobile Connector Adaptor, with selectable 20A 3pin & 5pin and 32A 3pin & 5pin plugs to suit everyone's needs when charging at 20A or 32A outlets, single or 3 phase. Feeling tempted to buy for a few dollars cheaper from another supplier? What if this happens on your first charge? How...

evchargers.com.au

The Tesla chargers don't even use the full amount of power the socket has available for them. The US has its single phase but high current electrical grid design, which is very unusual and limiting. The on car charger on an EV should be 22Kw.

Future battery technology will allow higher and faster charging, that is definitely happening. Instead of 250kw for ~25% of the charging, it will be like 400kw for ~80% of the charging. That is already possible today.

Bigger EV's are coming. At some point Tesla will adopt a 800v architecture for its cars.

XPeng claims its G9 SUV is the world's fastest charging EV

XPeng claims its G9 EV SUV offers the fastest charging in the world.

www.engadget.com

 

[GregD60]

Is that a thing in the US?


Again that would be in the US only.

In Australia all power points are on 20 amp circuits and a fairly common practice is to charge at 15 amps at 240v. Technically anything more than a 10 amp socket needs to be on a dedicated circuit. This makes the bare minimum 3.6Kw. I can drive pretty much anywhere in Australia, and unless they are running a kettle or a iron off the same circuit at the same time (most houses are broken up to 3-4 circuits for power points), I can draw 3.6Kw all day. Most fuse boxes on the side of houses, are located at the front (for easy meter reading and servicing) and have a socket, so nearly every house has a 3.6Kw socket ready to go, in a water proof box at the front of every suburban house.

Every powered camping ground in Australia has 15 amp 240v sockets to every site. So again 3.6Kw is literally free and available everywhere.

In Australia 3 Phase is very common. As it is in most of Europe. In Austria, every home is 3 phase. So in many countries, the minimum charging speed would be between 3.5Kw and 11Kw.

Tesla (and the US) needs to properly embrace 3 phase power.

The tesla charger can be had with 3 phase tails with 20 or 32 amp pins.

Tesla Gen2 Mobile Connector Adaptor - EVchargers - EV cables and adaptors

Tesla Gen2 Mobile Connector Adaptor, with selectable 20A 3pin & 5pin and 32A 3pin & 5pin plugs to suit everyone's needs when charging at 20A or 32A outlets, single or 3 phase. Feeling tempted to buy for a few dollars cheaper from another supplier? What if this happens on your first charge? How...

evchargers.com.au

The Tesla chargers don't even use the full amount of power the socket has available for them. The US has its single phase but high current electrical grid design, which is very unusual and limiting. The on car charger on an EV should be 22Kw.

Future battery technology will allow higher and faster charging, that is definitely happening. Instead of 250kw for ~25% of the charging, it will be like 400kw for ~80% of the charging. That is already possible today.

Bigger EV's are coming. At some point Tesla will adopt a 800v architecture for its cars.

XPeng claims its G9 SUV is the world's fastest charging EV

XPeng claims its G9 EV SUV offers the fastest charging in the world.

www.engadget.com

120 volts is not just a US thing. 100 volts to 127 volts are the standard in North America, Central America, the Caribbean, the northern parts of South America, Japan, Taiwan, and a few other places around the world. Also, the AC frequency is generally (always?) 60 Hz, while in countries with 200 to 240 volt systems, the frequency is generally (always?) 50 Hz. Amps in a circuit are what determine the size of wire, electrical contacts, and fuses or breakers in the electrical system, and 15 amps is what most typical outlets put out irrespective of voltage. Since watts are just volts times amps, the 240 volt countries can provide twice as many watts from a standard outlet than 120 volt outlets. I would assume that the level 1, level 2 nomenclature only makes sense in countries with standard voltages under 130 volts. By definition, places with 240 volt standards wouldn't have any level 1 chargers.

3 phase power is uncommon in the US; only industrial sites typically have 3 phase power, and since the cost to change that would be enormous, there is basically zero chance of it happening. As for the maximum number of amps on a particular circuit, it's actually an international electrical standard that calls for continuous run circuits, like EV chargers to be reduced by 20% of the maximum capability of the circuit; it's not just a Tesla thing. So, a 15 amp circuit should only charge at 12 amps, a 50 amp circuit at 40 amps, 100 amp circuit at 80 amps, etc. I'm not sure how you're coming up with 22kW chargers for EVs. As far as I know, there's no EV ever made that can handle AC charging at 22kW. Designing on board chargers for EVs that could handle that level of charging starts becoming expensive and space consuming, so it really doesn't make much sense. If you really need to charge that fast, a DC fast charger is a better way to go.

Tesla adopted a 1000 volt architecture for the Tesla Semi, and according to Elon, that same architecture will be used in the Cybertruck. The Tesla charge connector is designed to handle 1000 amps at 1000 volts, so charging speeds could be as high as 1 megawatt, if the vehicle's systems and batteries can handle it, and the particular charger can actually deliver that much power. That's almost triple the max theoretical charging speed of the current CCS standard.

 

[DrChaos]

Is that a thing in the US?


Again that would be in the US only.

In Australia all power points are on 20 amp circuits and a fairly common practice is to charge at 15 amps at 240v. Technically anything more than a 10 amp socket needs to be on a dedicated circuit. This makes the bare minimum 3.6Kw. I can drive pretty much anywhere in Australia, and unless they are running a kettle or a iron off the same circuit at the same time (most houses are broken up to 3-4 circuits for power points), I can draw 3.6Kw all day. Most fuse boxes on the side of houses, are located at the front (for easy meter reading and servicing) and have a socket, so nearly every house has a 3.6Kw socket ready to go, in a water proof box at the front of every suburban house.

Every powered camping ground in Australia has 15 amp 240v sockets to every site. So again 3.6Kw is literally free and available everywhere.

In Australia 3 Phase is very common. As it is in most of Europe. In Austria, every home is 3 phase. So in many countries, the minimum charging speed would be between 3.5Kw and 11Kw.

Tesla (and the US) needs to properly embrace 3 phase power.

There's no distribution infrastructure to US residences for 3 phase power or wiring, or electrical codes which would allow it.

The history here is that US electrical grid is a derivative of the original Edison system---at the time split-DC with two hots and a neutral. The DC moved to AC but otherwise stayed the same. Europe and Australia electrified later after 3 phase power was invented. US is disadvantaged by being the first mover. Of course all major generation and transmission is 3 phase, or now high voltage DC.

The most common electrical in houses is a pathetic 120V at 15A, so that's really 120V * 12A=1.44kW for continuous use which is awful.

Almost all US houses have 240V supply however, so building more 240V outlets as standard practice will happen.

Weirdly, commercial buildings have one of 208V 3 phase, 240V 3 phase, some 277V 3 phase, or a few big ones 480V three phase. But unfortunately in many it's 208V, and since L2 charging in USA can't handle 3 phase it's 208V single phase at many commercial L2 chargers in apartments or shopping areas, so you commonly get 208V * 30A = 6.2 kW.