petit_bateau
Active Member
Please, if you want to discuss Pakistan politics start another thread somewhere.
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Russia/Ukraine conflict
- Thread starter amolina
- Start date
_Redshift_
Member
I was watching a documentary on 9-11 attacks on Netflix. It is crazy that Russia was indirectly responsible for 9-11!
What started as a misadventure in 1979 in Afghanistan (ahem, no lessons learned since then, we all see…) ultimately led to the advent of the Taliban, with full state support from Pakistan, led to Al Qaida, and 9-11.
The US, went all-in on Afghanistan and Pakistan with Reagan, and is now fully out of both. Like wdolson said, there are no good options in Pakistan right now. Imran Khan was just using political rhetoric to discredit the opposition. Not that the opposition is any good either. They are opportunists, and the history of Pakistan is one of short sighted opportunism.
Which is why no single Prime Minister has ever completed his full 5 year term, ever.
_Redshift_
Member
Chief, that dude Imran lost the support of Pakistani military LAST YEAR. This whole chain of motions started then, not just now.
He was a bit too naive and arrogant to oppose Pak military’s choice for the intelligence chief. Pak military who are the king makers and king breakers, decided it was time to break Imran. They tacitly signaled support to the opposition to do what they usually do in Pakistan - topple the government.
Really, I think YOU are the naive one to just swallow Pakistani propaganda. Imran repeatedly insinuated US involvement without ever showing any proof. If he really did have proof, he would have shouted it from the top of a building into a megaphone. He did not do that. End of the story.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
_Redshift_
Member
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Actually … very much Ukraine related.
There is definitely more to this than it appears at first glance. As a long time Pak observer I just hope Imran will not meet the same fate as Zia-ul-Haq, Zulfikar Bhutto or Benazir Bhutto.
_Redshift_
Member
I asked you a question. You could answer it and resolve the speculation.
it can’t be conspiracy, now. Can it?
EVNow
Well-Known Member
LOL - what do you think ?What is it bud, are you a Pakistani?
What’s your next question ? My religion ?I asked you a question. You could answer it and resolve the speculation.
it can’t be conspiracy, now. Can it?
petit_bateau
Active Member
Various reports that Russians have used a drone to drop a chemical substance in Mariopol, some say sarin
www.unian.ua
and
www.theguardian.com
Росія застосувала хімічну зброю в Маріуполі - "Азов"
Супротивник скинув отруйну речовину на Маріуполь з безпілотника, зазначили в "Азові".
and
Ukraine president warns of ‘new stage of terror’ as west probes chemical weapons claims
Volodymyr Zelenskiy taking chemical weapons threat ‘seriously’ as Mariupol mayor says thousands have died in devastated port city
www.theguardian.com
_Redshift_
Member
Various reports that Russians have used a drone to drop a chemical substance in Mariopol, some say sarin
Росія застосувала хімічну зброю в Маріуполі - "Азов"
Супротивник скинув отруйну речовину на Маріуполь з безпілотника, зазначили в "Азові".
and
Ukraine president warns of ‘new stage of terror’ as west probes chemical weapons claims
Volodymyr Zelenskiy taking chemical weapons threat ‘seriously’ as Mariupol mayor says thousands have died in devastated port city
Good lord.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
The group calling it "blatant interference" is chaired by Imran (the prime minister himself). It's himself and his supporters making that claim. There have been no independent analysis that claims the same or any other such evidence of US interference.
National Security Council (Pakistan) - Wikipedia
And yes, I quoted that passage myself, which you have ignored. Here's another effort. Here's the whole part I quoted, so you don't just delete and ignore it.
BOLD PART MY EMPHASIS:
"It later emerged that these ‘revelations’ were in fact claims based on a routine diplomatic cable that had referenced remarks made by a US state representative on the possible outcomes of a vote of no-confidence against Mr Khan and what they could mean for Pakistan. We do know that the language and tone of the communication were such that the National Security Committee termed it “blatant interference” in Pakistan’s internal affairs and recommended sending a strong message through diplomatic channels.
Apart from that, it did not seem there was any imminent threat to Pakistan’s national security. However, going by the self-righteous fury evident in Mr Khan’s recent speeches, one would think it is no longer contestable whether a foreign conspiracy is actually in play or if he has just made a mountain out of a foreign diplomat’s poorly chosen words."
Stop ignoring the fact it is unsubstantiated that this whole no confidence vote was US orchestrated (just a single cable where a diplomat may have a made a vague threat is very much not evidence of such)!
Another recent article:
"Most analysts believe Mr Khan is deliberately exaggerating the contents of a diplomatic cable, sent by the Pakistani ambassador in Washington, reportedly passing on a warning that there would be "consequences" if Mr Khan remained in power."
If you want hypocrisy look no further than Imran Khan's government and supporters (and this is strong evidence supporting @_Redshift_ 's point above about him losing military support last year):
"It's believed a rift between the army and Imran Khan emerged last year, leading to the military withdrawing its support for his slender ruling coalition.
...
Many critics of Imran Khan, who have often faced harassment from the intelligence services for criticising the army's support for his government, noted the sudden change in approach by his followers.
Some remarked on the hypocrisy, given their earlier praise for the army, whilst others welcomed the apparent newfound belief in civilian supremacy."
Imran Khan supporters point finger over downfall
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EVNow
Well-Known Member
Yes, he was the head of government. Americans believe their own government propaganda. Nothing others say will ever be proof enough … even though CIA has engineered coup in dozens of countries by their own admission / declassified material.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
And we should believe Pakistani government propaganda instead?
It's a diplomatic cable written by their own (Pakistani) diplomat that paraphrased an earlier conversation with a US senior official, sent on March 7th, a day before the opposition submitted a no confidence vote (how convenient).
Other former diplomats question the account, especially the alleged language used:
And there was zero evidence of a rift between the countries afterwards (even with the US official in question), suggesting there was nothing significant there:
"Even Ambassador Majeed thanked Mr Lu on Twitter for participation in an embassy event on March 16."
It's pretty clear form both accounts though, that the US never sent a letter, at most it was an informal conversation where the characterization was given by the Pakistani side.
"Meanwhile, the US State Department said on Wednesday that no US government agency or official had sent a letter to Pakistan on the current political situation in the country."
PM discloses contents of ‘threat letter’
Meanwhile, it's been long known that due to the Pakistan's military's rift with Imran Khan, he may be out by March. Here's an article from late last year, noting the early signs were his party being defeated in his stronghold in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa, suggesting he may be kicked out in March.
Trending news: Will Imran Khan government fall by March? Speculation of change in attitude of Pakistan Army intensifies - Hindustan News Hub
But according to you, we should instead believe a conspiracy about a US coup that is all based on a Pakistani diplomat's third party accounting of a conversation with a US official (in a cable sent by him conveniently a day before the tabling of no confidence motion), instead of Pakistani domestic factors that have been boiling for at least months (of which it is easy to find evidence of independently, even ones predicting Imran would be kicked out as a result).
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UkNorthampton
TSLA - 12+ startups in 1
It's how you break up criminal organisations, break the trust, the network fails and there's infighting. Historically, infighting is often a key reason for states/gangs failing, wars being lost. Who in Putin's circle trusts anyone? Build on this. Let a few people seem to have favoured status with the west, able to use money, travel and yachts and others tightened down on. Suspicions, jealousy and paranoia will do the rest. Best if done to plausible candidates who would have the effect of splintering groups along pre-existing fault lines.
Tiger
Active Member
The more I think of it, instead of fake transactions, they should be real. All money should be transferred to the 2nd in line and see how long he remains standing. Even his personal doctor and chefs. Then to the next and eventually see who remains holding the bag.
"From plans for liquefied natural gas terminals in northern Germany, Finland and France to potential new routes through Spain and the Mediterranean, Europe is striving to rid itself of its dependence on Russian gas, though experts say the task will take years to complete."
www.france24.com
From Denmark to Portugal, Europe ups effort to quit Russian gas
In Denmark, large black pipes are about to be buried in a muddy trench, as construction of a gas pipeline from Norway to Poland resumes following Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
www.france24.com
Ukraine conflict: 'Russian soldiers raped me and killed my husband'
The BBC has uncovered first-hand evidence of Russian soldiers raping and killing civilians in a village west of Kyiv.
www.bbc.com
"About 25 girls and women aged 14 to 24 were systematically raped during the occupation in the basement of one house in Bucha. Nine of them are pregnant," she said. "Russian soldiers told them they would rape them to the point where they wouldn't want sexual contact with any man, to prevent them from having Ukrainian children."
petit_bateau
Active Member
I'm afraid these are standard tactics for Russia, honed in Syria.
Bomb the cities into rubble, targetting especially the hospitals and the civilians.
Then drop chemical agents on the bits that still won't surrender.
So, the news of chemical agents being used in Maripol coming out of Ukraine is at least plausible.
Yes, they are predictably evil.
I just hope all the arms assistance will get to the right areas in time to at least slow down the evil advance.
I just hope all the arms assistance will get to the right areas in time to at least slow down the evil advance.
Doggydogworld
Active Member
The US doesn't have that kind of control over world oil production. And it sometimes works to drive prices up, just look at Biden's first 100 days.
I agree Iran and Venezuela would make a difference. The reasons behind their sanctions haven't gone away, simply ignoring them would be very political in the US. And VZ is a dumpster fire, production fell steadily under Chavez and then Maduro, so it's not clear how much they could help.
True, as I said. But 150-200/bbl is also political suicide. So the politicians pretend to act while letting Russian oil continue to flow. I just want people to call out the politicians (and journalists) for paying lip service while doing nothing.
Not really. Dallas Fed expected a 3m bpd reduction, but saw "leaks" even in mid-March:
What changed is that much of the Russian oil that continues to be exported from Baltic and Black Sea ports at steep discounts is not delivered to refiners, as is customary. Instead, trading houses are purchasing the oil and keeping it in commercial storage in Europe, from where it may be potentially resold, bypassing financial sanctions. Buying oil for storage is not prohibited under current sanctions.
Politicians know a true embargo means unbearable prices or rationing. So they allow leaks, while uselessly posturing.
