I think it's more about strategic planning and logistics. Once Ukraine has aircraft, pilot training, and needed weapons they'll move forward. I wouldn't want to be the canon fodder sitting in those trenches waiting to be attacked.
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Russia/Ukraine conflict
- Thread starter amolina
- Start date
navguy12
Active Member
A piece about the leader of Ukraine and the rock music he works out to every morning:
Looks like roadblock removed now, so Sweden appears a go for NATO:
NATO's Stoltenberg says Turkey agrees to move ahead with Sweden's NATO bid
VILNIUS, July 10 (Reuters) - Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan has agreed to forward to parliament Sweden's bid to join the NATO military alliance, Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said on Monday, on the eve of a NATO summit in Vilnius.
"I'm glad to announce ... that President Erdogan has agreed to forward the accession protocol for Sweden to the grand national assembly as soon as possible, and work closely with the assembly to ensure ratification," Stoltenberg told a news conference.
NATO's Stoltenberg says Turkey agrees to move ahead with Sweden's NATO bid
I see the article also says Hungary assents.
Take care how the EC responds. The Reuters article specifically makes no mention of Erdogan insisting his country gets membership as part of this demands. I'm suspecting many members aren't enormously overjoyed with the prospect of Turkey becoming a member of the EU. Schengen Accords may be a particular sticking point.
Regardless, this certainly appears to me to be a spectacular step, with little loss of face on either side.
Regardless, this certainly appears to me to be a spectacular step, with little loss of face on either side.
Fingers crossed as more news from Vilnius suggests the EU portion of Erdogan's demands are shelved....
Talk about narrow reading and cherry picking. You brought all this up. I responded with what I believe to be how this forum is working. I certainly didn't call you a troll or stupid. You have certainly been tolerated. There's no pleasing everybody.
petit_bateau
Active Member
EU aspect not involved.
Hungary says it won't be last !
Turkey agrees to support Sweden’s Nato application
Recep Tayyip Erdoğan agreed to set aside his veto following last-ditch talks on the eve of the Nato summit in Vilnius, Lithuania
www.theguardian.com
Tiger
Active Member
I wonder how long this war would last if Ukraine began harvesting the culprits in top-down fashion:
Maybe the Russian officials will just turn on each other before the music stops?
Maybe the Russian officials will just turn on each other before the music stops?
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petit_bateau
Active Member
Apparently trying to flank Robotdyne (with unfortunate vehicle losses, but seems not crew) so now at 'proper' first fixed trench lines, which UKR have now gained and held
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Interesting to me that the reports that Russia would attack north of Kreminia appear to be true and Ukraine evacuated a 5km buffer yesterday. That's along the entire conflict zone north of Lyman I think. Anyway, russians attacking:
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I think making peace is ultimately extremely high risk to Ukraine because of the nature of the enemy. If Russia is allowed to retain the territory it captured, it rewards them for bad behavior. It also sends a message to other would be land grabbers that they might get away with it too.
And finally the cost to individual Ukrainians is very high. The Ukrainians are faced with the choice that some of their people will be killed or badly hurt while holding a gun or a much larger number will be hurt or killed by the Russians after the guns are taken away. We know this is true because of the way the Russians behaved in territory they captured and then the Ukrainians took back. Every place the Russians occupied civilians were tortured and killed.
Russia's stated goal in this war is to eliminate Ukraine as an identity. To make Ukraine a part of Russia. The way they go about wiping out Ukrainian identity is killing a large number of those who have it, then taking their children to be raised as Russians. The Russian goal is genocide.
According to a poll last fall 91% of Ukrainians don't want to stop until all of Ukraine is back in Ukrainian hands, including Crimea. That doesn't happen in a vacuum. Ukraine knows its history better than people who have never lived there. Whenever they have been unarmed and at the mercy of Moscow bad things have happened to Ukrainians. The west doesn't know what Holodomor was, but Ukraine understands as well as every Jewish person understands the Holocaust.
For the first time in almost a millennia they are able to stand up to Moscow and defeat them and they are taking that opportunity.
I'm an engineer too, but I also know a lot about history and a lot about warfare. All avenues Ukraine can take involve risk and people are going to die. Continuing the war until Russia is gone is ultimately the lowest risk option that keeps the largest number of Ukrainians safe.
And Elon Musk is a very low quality source for opinions about the war, and for pretty much anything beyond the areas where he has proven himself competent. He is a brilliant visionary in a few fields and he's done more than a lot of entrepreneurs, but just because he's brilliant at rocketry and electric cars doesn't make him an expert on world politics or the future of humanity. His opinions in those areas have proven he's way out over the ends of his skis, but because he got rich doing a couple of things he thinks he can be the world expert on everything. I've described him as the world's most brilliant idiot.
Ukraine is never going to have enough aircraft to be decisive. They can't build an air force large enough. Ukraine started the war with about 100 combat pilots and they could probably scrape together another 50-100 between retired pilots and training a few during the war. They also only have enough trained ground crews to maintain about 100 combat aircraft and training ground crew on western jets often takes longer than training a pilot.
F-16s will help, but this is going to be primarily a ground war.
The Ukrainians aren't using cannon fodder though. They do have Territorial Defense Forces that are not as well trained as the assault brigades, but they are now getting some basic training and are integrated into units with experienced NCOs and officers. When fighting has been in static positions like it was in Bakhmut they were careful to rotate out troops on a regular schedule so they never spent more than a few days at a time in a trench.
This keeps the troops on the front line in better health, both physically and mentally.
The Ukrainian infantry are fighting a war and all the horrors that go along with it, but they are far better treated than the Russians who really are using cannon fodder.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Russia's military adventurism goes far beyond Ukraine. Appeasement is a terrible idea, not least because the other side is run by psychopaths. Has the Churchill lesson been forgotten ?
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Sometimes I wonder (hope) that Elon is simply saying pro Moscow talking points in order to balance himself out with the support he’s done for Ukraine. (Ie Starlink - which is absolutely massive because otherwise this war would probably be over already, and SpaceX so the US is not dependent on Russia for astronauts). Imagine if he was solely pro Ukraine on top of all that. Talk about painting a major target on his back.
Or maybe he is just saying what he thinks. If so, he should probably go there to see it first hand and talk to the people directly.
Or maybe he is just saying what he thinks. If so, he should probably go there to see it first hand and talk to the people directly.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Except he's mostly parroting Sacks and others who have done nothing for Ukraine that I'm aware of.
Would it be possible at all for the Ukrainian military (and society) to survive this long fighting Russian brutality without Starlink communication?
I think Starlink has been instrumental in the success so far.
UkraineX: How Elon Musk’s space satellites changed the war on the ground
From artillery strikes to Zoom calls, the tech billionaire’s internet service has become a lifeline in the fight against Russia.
www.politico.eu
Somehow I thought Elon was first in being scared of nuke war (bad for business) and wanting peace, and Sacks was just parroting and then defending Elons position.
