Yes, CNN was my source for the hypersonic missile use confirmation. More outlets are reporting that it has been confirmed by US officials now. Though the officials weren't named, I trust that CNN used sufficient diligence. I'm not sure if Russia just wants to show off their new wunder weapon in a threatening manner, test it in real world combat, or perhaps they're resorting to using it because their other precision bombing systems are nearly depleted.
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Russia/Ukraine conflict
- Thread starter amolina
- Start date
EVNow
Well-Known Member
You don't need to cut off internet access to make people believe in *anything*.
Or just see any number of conspiracy theories.
OTOH, people living in autocracies are the most skeptical of the government as their everyday lived experience is far from what they keep hearing the government say.
Terminator857
Active Member
Artful Dodger
"Neko no me"
Artful Dodger
"Neko no me"
Russia to Re-Open Stock Market After Nearly A Month, Will its Economy Rebound ? | CNBC
"...to reopen for just Federal loan trading"
"...to reopen for just Federal loan trading"
The penetration has been evident since the beginning. The Russian encrypted communication network completely failed. It relied on 3G. As a result of this failure, they have been using unencrypted WW II level radio communication which the Ukrainians are tapping quite easily. Modern tech allows the Ukrainians to zero in on the signals quite easily. Some Russians have been using the Ukrainian cell phone network to try and communicate too, but the Ukrainians are monitoring that too.
Like most of the Russian military, the Kinzhal is more hype than really an advanced weapon.
Why calling Russia's Kinzhal a 'hypersonic missile' is a stretch
The Kinzhal just just an air launched Iskander missile with some changed firmware for the new role. There has been a decline in all sorts of Russian artillery over the last few days. They are probably running out of Iskanders and throwing the air launched version into the war and then hyping it.
There are many anti-missile defense systems in use around the world. The US made Patriot made its debut in the first Gulf War. The US gave some to Israel and they used them to shoot down Scuds sent to hit Israel. That was the first version and it was not as good as what's deployed now.
Not only can missiles be stopped, but so can ballistic missiles, though that's more difficult.
Missile defense - Wikipedia
Anti-ballistic missile - Wikipedia
The Ukrainians have even shot down some Iskander missiles
Ukrainian Armed Forces shoot down Iskander missile near Kramatorsk
The media is making a big deal of the Russians deploying the Kinzhal. I see more desperation than anything else in this move.
I came across a Twitter article by a military expert criticizing the NY Times coverage of this war. He pointed out that the NYT is making a big deal of rather minor successes by the Russians and ignoring the massive failures. Much of the US based mainstream media seems to be doing the same.
The story is not the might of the Russian bear, but how toothless and weak the bear turned out to be. I don't know why the story is being spun like it is. Short term this war is a huge boon for the arms makers, but long term it could prove disastrous if Russia collapses as a military power. No more baddy to scare potential customers into buying your weapons. There will still be markets elsewhere, China is still a threat and there is are regional cold wars in the Middle East and South Asia. But NATO would likely slash military budgets if Russia ceased to be any kind of military threat. The US might cut back a bit too.
I hate corporate greed stories and Svengali manipulation of the news to their ends. They are cliche, but that's one explanation for the coverage.
Another might just be how lazy American journalism has become. Reporters running with the old cliched narrative without really digging very deeply.
Putin is better at PR than Stalin, but he is just as ruthless. There has been talk lately of him having a narcissistic personality disorder. One hallmark of all personality disorders is they completely lack empathy. For an NPD, they will do anything, including killing millions to maintain their power.
Putin, like Saddam Hussein has worked hard to destroy all opposition to his rule. The article I posted yesterday talks about how he has systematically broken the military so there will be no military coup. His entire military/security apparatus was really built to keep public uprisings at bay not really defend the country.
If he thought the soldiers returning from the war were a threat, he wouldn't hesitate to ensure they all died. The Ukrainians have collected Russian bodies, but the Russians have refused to take them. Most Russian soldiers have no IDs on them and the Russians have mobile crematoriums in Southern Russia and Belarus to incinerate the bodies.
Russia will probably refuse to take back the POWs at the end of the war.
Putin may fall because of this, but it's going to be very difficult to topple him. He has worked for years to keep any potential threats in his inner circle divided and too afraid of him to act against him.
The problem the last administration in the US had was only a slice of the population believed the propaganda. The rest adamantly resisted and they voted the president out.
With an open news media, it's possible to win over the minds of some of the population, but not all. With a closed news media, you won't win over all the minds, but the opposition won't have clear sources for news to rally around and will be divided until things get too bad for the propaganda to cover up. Authoritarian regimes with strong militaries tend to very good at keeping down dissent even as the walls are caving in.
The Russian military will come out of this war devastated. The thuggish police are still around, but it's possible that mass protests could get beyond their ability to control and there won't be anything to back them up. I'm not holding my breath though.
I saw an interview with Malcolm Nance early in the war. He said he spent weeks before the war in Kyiv studying all the routes in and out of the city. He said he saw lots and lots of Teslas while he was there.
World Stage: Ukraine with Kyiv Mayor Vitali Klitschko & Kyiv Territorial Defense Member Wladimir Klitschko, PhD
Monday, March 21
Program: 9:00 a.m. ET / 1:00 p.m. GMT
Kyiv’s mayor and his brother, territorial defense member and world champion boxer, discuss efforts on the ground to maintain control of Ukraine’s capital city and their vision for the future of the country.
Stream here: wapo.st/ukrainemarch21
EVNow
Well-Known Member
The question is - do people really believe in government propaganda in authoritarian countries ?
I've to look for scholarly papers on this - but from my reading - this is not the case. Few believed in Soviet propaganda within USSR. Iraqi people didn't believe Saddam.
But in US a lot of people do believe in propaganda - with anyone saying something different relegated to "fringe". All you need in the US is to have both Dems & GOP push a particular story (see Venezuela). I'd say - it is only in the last few years that GOP & Dems have started pushing different stories on international issues. They used to not question the official story. Not just politicians, almost everyone in the media too.
In Russia - if Putin just closes all news and only tries to push his propaganda, few people will believe. Ofcourse, Putin has been able to control the media for a long time .... and those who believed him before, will need some kind of wake-up call to start not believing him now.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
?
...and what would this 'alternate' story about Venezuela be?
Freedom House ranks Venezuela at 14/100... That means "NOT FREE" by 'quite' 'some' margin...
Venezuela: Freedom in the World 2022 Country Report | Freedom House
See the Freedom in the World 2022 score and learn about democracy and freedom in Venezuela.
@EVNow you seem to have a fascinating view of the USA. Americans fall for propaganda while other nations citizens don't? Chinese certainly do, so do Indians, so do Arabs in many countries, etc etc etc. Having lived in and worked against many authoritarian (and some downright evil) regimes I'd say yes many people do.
Anyway, it is a fascinating perspective. To get people to be critical thinkers you just have to have a dictatorship. I tried that this morning and I tell you, my son still didn't take the trash out before the dog got into it, again. So, my empirical efforts are a bit at odds with your perspective.
Anyway, it is a fascinating perspective. To get people to be critical thinkers you just have to have a dictatorship. I tried that this morning and I tell you, my son still didn't take the trash out before the dog got into it, again. So, my empirical efforts are a bit at odds with your perspective.
Indeed, it was an armpit before Chavez and a different, worse, armpit after, just follow the emigres; when the smart people with skills all leave their homeland...it sucks.?
...and what would this 'alternate' story about Venezuela be?
Freedom House ranks Venezuela at 14/100... That means "NOT FREE" by 'quite' 'some' margin...
Venezuela: Freedom in the World 2022 Country Report | Freedom House
See the Freedom in the World 2022 score and learn about democracy and freedom in Venezuela.freedomhouse.org
bkp_duke
Well-Known Member
If I were taking odds at Vegas . . . 75% drop when it opens . . . at minimum.
They may be able to stem the tide for a day or two, but that sounds about right. The ERUS Russian etf went from $37 to $7 before regulators halted trading.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Your distortion of what I said is "fascinating".
People in autocracies don't believe in propaganda because the difference in what the authorities say vs what they say in real life daily is large.
In US (and other democracies) - you can't lie too much about everyday life because of the same issues. Ofcourse didn't stop the previous President. BUT, when it comes to foreign affairs its very easy. There is no lived in experience to compare.
Who do you think believed in propaganda more
- US soldiers in Iraq who were told Saddam had a lot of WMD
- Iraqi people who were told Saddam was great
BTW, talking about propaganda of a democratic Ukraine ...
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Are there any good articles on the end game Ukraine would be ok with ?
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
"Retired US Army Gen. David Petraeus tells CNN's Jake Tapper how the Ukrainian people have aided their army in killing multiple Russian generals. CNN has not been able to confirm the killings."
>> He also gives a short brief of the stalemate and battle of attrition around Kiev. And talks about Mariupol and Odessa. The clip is less than 7 minutes in total.
>> He also gives a short brief of the stalemate and battle of attrition around Kiev. And talks about Mariupol and Odessa. The clip is less than 7 minutes in total.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
This was reported on in a Swedish Newspaper. Can't find a good (safe?) English source. This was the best I could find:
The Swedish article:
www.aftonbladet.se
The Swedish article:
Så lurar regimen Putins fiender: Varnar för fällan
Belarus diktator Aleksandr Lukasjenko har täta band till Putin och stöder hans invasion. Bland annat att hjälpa Putin att hemliggöra Rysslands förluster. Men det finns en milisgrupp inne i landet som går emot diktatorn – nu varnar de för lömska fällor.
www.aftonbladet.se
