S-Class Drive Pilot 2.0 vs. Tesla Autopilot

[MP3Mike]

On reason of course is this small a vision-only suite is easier to code for and can be done using less processing power...

I think the reason is that the only portion that is absolutely required is vision. It doesn't matter how good you do radar, lidar, and/or sonar if you can't do vision right you don't get to FSD. (None of those can read signs or stop lights. You might be able to detect lane lines with lidar but I doubt it.)

By going, mostly, camera only Tesla is focusing on what matters most.

However, I do wish the included at least one more radar, but again they aren't trying to be perfect. Sure radar might be able to see a car approaching from the back in fog without its lights on where the cameras can't. But if the cameras can't see it then a human driving likely can't either.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

By going, mostly, camera only Tesla is focusing on what matters most.

Just as with AP1 for its scope, with AP2 Tesla is going (approximately) with the minimum possible suite for the purpose. On that I agree.

Whether or not it all ends up like AP1 blind spot detection... lets hope not.

What is interesting is that Elon/Tesla seems to have been against lidar and even sensor fusion in general in some of the comments. Fundamental philosphy or just promoting what's out now?

 

[tescroft]

In Switzerland you don't have to touch the steering wheel after using the turn signal stalk to start an Auto Lane Change.

No, I do have to. Either just before using the indicator stalk or after. The hands-on-timeout is very short, just a few seconds. Changing lane back after overtaking requires touching the wheel again. Just using the stalk (either to the limit or by just holding it, doesn't matter) requires wheel touch. Not very convenient IMO.

Do you have Autopilot V1 or V2?

 

[tescroft]

With Tesla AP to make an Auto Lane Change you only have to -- after of course visually checking to make sure it is safe -- hit the turn signal stalk and the car will change lanes, you do NOT have to touch the steering wheel.

May be this is country dependent. I have to touch the wheel, either just before using the turn signal stalk or after. When using the stalk without touching the wheel first, hands-on-warning is poping up. This is ridiculous, since using the turn signal stalk IS actually a proof of driver awareness.

 

[Jtrader]

- turn assistance: automatically slowing down when the indicator is set to make a turn
What kind of turn? Not necessary for lane change.

- hands-free highway lane change without the need to touch the wheel by just hitting the indicator (with autopilot, you also have to touch the wheel after setting the indicator).
My Tesla doesn't require me to touch the wheel after indicating a lane change. It only requires me to touch the wheel to indicate my engagement.

- rear facing radar capable of detecting incoming overtaking highway traffic from 80 meters (to be used for automatic lane changes)
Maybe not necessary... We'll see what the future updates hold.

- automatic speed adjustment to detected traffic signs or navigation data
My Tesla does this.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

- automatic speed adjustment to detected traffic signs or navigation data
My Tesla does this.

Yeah, but to be clear AP2 does not yet recognize signs. The Germans had speed sign recognition like a decade ago.

 

[DurandalAI]

I don't see any need for rear-facing radar, and I doubt Tesla does either.
Rear-facing camera can see cars coming up on it in all situations except for the one situation where it was mentioned previously about a car not having headlights on at night. In which case, the only time this is going to be a real problem is when this car is passing the Tesla at speed, without headlights on, and the Tesla merges into that lane.

In that situation, tell me where the Tesla is at fault? It's not, that other car has two items where it was in the wrong. Now, of course nobody wants to be involved in a traffic collision, whether or not they are at fault. I also agree that automatic headlights should be mandatory. But when it hits the news, it's going to be the other driver who's at fault. You can't account for all situations to avoid collisions, but you can get really close to avoiding a collision where the Tesla is at fault.

 

[pdq]

I recently arranged for a test drive in a Model S with autopilot to see all the improvements compared to my 2015 P90D with Autopilot. The sales advisor said not to expect much, as the current version of AP in the new S is worse than what I have in my car. We went on a 45 minute drive on a major highway, and he was right -- it was worse.

 

[SlyWombat]

I do wish that Tesla did have rear radar only to help the car see things when visibility is poor...

Jeff

Sadly my forward radar fails in bad weather (TACC disabled due to limited forward radar visibility), usually when snowing and slush builds up on front bumper.

 

[Cosmacelf]

The real question is, can the Mercedes system offload driving in a 100 mile freeway stretch that is a combination of stop and go and clear driving with the driver only needed to pay attention for edge cases? It sounds like it cannot, so Tesla AP is still better.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

situations except for the one situation where it was mentioned previously about a car not having headlights on at night.

Radar can also see through dirt and other cars (when the road is curving). Camera is more vulnerable for blocking.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

The real question is, can the Mercedes system offload driving in a 100 mile freeway stretch that is a combination of stop and go and clear driving with the driver only needed to pay attention for edge cases? It sounds like it cannot, so Tesla AP is still better.

I don't know about the latest Mercedes system, but I certainly would not trust thay scenario to my AP2...

 

[Cosmacelf]

I don't know about the latest Mercedes system, but I certainly would not trust thay scenario to my AP2...

I got AP1, so I'm cool...

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I got AP1, so I'm cool...

Indeed...

 

[ecarfan]

May be this is country dependent. I have to touch the wheel, either just before using the turn signal stalk or after. When using the stalk without touching the wheel first, hands-on-warning is poping up. This is ridiculous, since using the turn signal stalk IS actually a proof of driver awareness.

I love Switzerland, but in this case I am going to blame your government for that silliness.

 

[Spidy]

The real question is, can the Mercedes system offload driving in a 100 mile freeway stretch that is a combination of stop and go and clear driving with the driver only needed to pay attention for edge cases? It sounds like it cannot, so Tesla AP is still better.

@3:30

 

[tescroft]

- turn assistance: automatically slowing down when the indicator is set to make a turn
What kind of turn? Not necessary for lane change.

This has nothing to do with lane change. Direction turn, e.g. You want to go left at a junction.

- hands-free highway lane change without the need to touch the wheel by just hitting the indicator (with autopilot, you also have to touch the wheel after setting the indicator).
My Tesla doesn't require me to touch the wheel after indicating a lane change. It only requires me to touch the wheel to indicate my engagement.

Obviously, there is a difference in AP for US and Europe. I checked the manual, there, in the first line of auto lane change description, it is explicitly mentioned that lane change requires hands on first.



This is something mercedes does obviously not require in Europe to get regulatory approval. Seems to be they have at least the better lawyers.

- automatic speed adjustment to detected traffic signs or navigation data
My Tesla does this.

Well, here we seem the have a country dependent difference as well. Although technically capable in the US based on your comment, Tesla does not open this feature in some European countries. Also in the manual, there is no mention that speed assist somehow really reduces the speed, it just shows the speed sign in the dashboard. Meanwhile, Mercedes does provide this feature to us Europeeans.

 

[LST]

Just to chime in on the general theme of Tesla Autopilot V1 vs other offerings:

I believe most of us die hard Tesla fans are not aware of the progress other automakers are achieving.

When AP1 first got released (i forgot exactly when, 2015 MS85D here) i was amazed, since i never would have expected to receive, overnight, a car with these capabilities. In the first year i got the impression, that there was a learning curve, from drunk driver to an insecure new driver (so to speak). Later (maybe in the wake of dumping Mobileye) i havn't had the impression AP1 was evolving drastically, as i have expected due to the talk about fleet learning and such.

Here's why: I drive the same 140k route from my home to a lake, always the same route, maybe 30 times a year. AP1 has the same bugs each and every time: Breaking in a tunnel where nothing is (no car, no obstacle whatsoever), wanting to take one particular of ramp instead of going straight. Since I love the car I still use AP1 as often as possible, but disengage before said places, sometimes I try anyway...It's annoying but as a fan, I can live with it.

Now: Since this spring we have as a towing vehicle a new Volvo XC90 with Pilot Assist 2, and guess what: It handles the said route without any flaw at all. I now have 5'000km on it with maybe 80% PA2 engaged, mostly highways and i have to say, the experience is much better than AP2 from Tesla.

A nice feature is also, that you can nudge the car to the side within a lane, without PilotAssist disengaging completely, it just lets you steer, comes on again, when you let it. I love this feature. This also means you can drive a roundabout and continue on PilotAssist without re-engaging the thing. Something i find annoying with Teslas AP1.

Conclusion: I hope Tesla will soon follow up on the promises made (AP2, FSD etc.). And i would advise everybody inclined to think that Tesla is years ahead of any competition, and eventually bases his investments decision on that, to go drive what the competition (Volvo / Mercedes) has to offer.

Disclaimer: I am firmly convinced, that Tesla is years ahead of any competition, but because of their strategy to go full electric, secret master plan etc. and not Driver Assisting features, FSD, or AP 1 or 2.

 

[tescroft]

I second that. There is a strong disbalance between Elon's comments and speeches and announcements and the actual implementation on the road, especially for AP2. AP1, while it is very good and way bettter than anything else I've driven so far, it did not really improve since I own the car for almost a year, except for the automatic slow down at ramps and step curves based on fleet learning. It still cannot adjust to speed limits, speed sign recognition is bad, Autosteer remains beta, whiper rain recognition is suboptimal, and very annoying when you have a trailer, AP does not work in trailer mode. This stuff has nothing to do with the sensor suite IMO.

The auto-reengage feature you mention is something that I would love on AP1 too, since there are still a lot of situations you've to take over manually for a short time.

 

[tescroft]

I love Switzerland, but in this case I am going to blame your government for that silliness.

This has nothing to do with Switzerland, it is a European auto-lane change behavior. What matters at the end is not what is technically achievable, but what Tesla is able to get regulatory approved. And in this area, Mercedes is obviously a step ahead of the Americans in terms of lane changing.