Santa Clara County retroactively Changing ESS Rules

[jjrandorin]

Seems this might be the case now in Sunnyvale, CA too

Basically, I've got a section of wall with about 75" of usable space on a concrete pad outside the back door to my garage. Originally, I wanted to do 2 stacks of power wall (side by side with 10" from door and 5" between the units), for 3 power wall units (Couldn't do a single stack because adding a 3rd unit would edge into the city standoff between properties of 4').

They came out the other day and told me that we'd have to cut down to a single unit, because I won't be allowed to stack, and because I'll have to be 3' from the door (cutting the usable space to 39", or a single wall). Despite having earlier had the permit approved

My garage has a mini-split unit and has been given the interior treatment for a COVID office, though it has hard floor and is still listed on the final permit that I got for the work as an attached garage. I very much would love to figure out what the story is so that I can get the right new design. At the moment, I guess I'm lucky that I can get a single unit without too big of a change. Perhaps if the rules lessen, then I can stack?

Where can I find a solid source for my city, as the web seems to have nothing. @Vines - Are you aware of what makes it a living space?

I dont know what the formal definition for "living space" is, but if an inspector comes out and sees a minisplit in the room and it looks like an office, I would bet money they would say "this looks like a living space to me".

 

[h2ofun]

I dont know what the formal definition for "living space" is, but if an inspector comes out and sees a minisplit in the room and it looks like an office, I would bet money they would say "this looks like a living space to me".

I do not understand if a permit was approved, how they can change after this?

 

[jjrandorin]

I do not understand if a permit was approved, how they can change after this?

There were quite a few reports here of that happening around this specific instance (AHJ's adopting rules early). They are not supposed to do so, but if they do, one would have to "fight" and that likely would not be pleasant for anyone, homeowner or solar company. It would be like getting into a "knock down drag out fight" with a neighbor. Even if you win, you lose.

 

[h2ofun]

There were quite a few reports here of that happening around this specific instance (AHJ's adopting rules early). They are not supposed to do so, but if they do, one would have to "fight" and that likely would not be pleasant for anyone, homeowner or solar company. It would be like getting into a "knock down drag out fight" with a neighbor. Even if you win, you lose.

Vines fought one of these and won

 

[Vines]

When is telsa supposed to get UL9540A? These changes would seem to have some major impact on installs?

That is a great question for Tesla, it is not my place to speak for them.

Seems this might be the case now in Sunnyvale, CA too

Basically, I've got a section of wall with about 75" of usable space on a concrete pad outside the back door to my garage. Originally, I wanted to do 2 stacks of power wall (side by side with 10" from door and 5" between the units), for 3 power wall units (Couldn't do a single stack because adding a 3rd unit would edge into the city standoff between properties of 4').

They came out the other day and told me that we'd have to cut down to a single unit, because I won't be allowed to stack, and because I'll have to be 3' from the door (cutting the usable space to 39", or a single wall). Despite having earlier had the permit approved

My garage has a mini-split unit and has been given the interior treatment for a COVID office, though it has hard floor and is still listed on the final permit that I got for the work as an attached garage. I very much would love to figure out what the story is so that I can get the right new design. At the moment, I guess I'm lucky that I can get a single unit without too big of a change. Perhaps if the rules lessen, then I can stack?

Where can I find a solid source for my city, as the web seems to have nothing. @Vines - Are you aware of what makes it a living space?

There is no solid source, its up in the air right now. Who is "they?" your Tesla installer or the inspector?

Living space is in layman's terms anything where you cook, sleep or congregate. Bathrooms, closets, garages and hallways are not living spaces but sometimes are often treated as such if they only open into a living space i.e. closets or master bathrooms.

Waiting could be an easy way to get what you want if Tesla's UL9540A testing works out the way we hope it does.

 

[Vines]

AHJ are allowed to pull back a permit if they deem a safety violation has occurred and was missed in plan check.

Most AHJ will work with you, if you are the kind of person who is easy to work with, when these kinds of things happen. This is 100% a place where the OSFM, ICC and CRC agree, but the FCAC, and CFC do not agree with them.

Vines fought one of these and won

I have lost as many as I have won so far, so there's that...

For those who are stuck in this issue, it might be as simple as waiting 3 months or so. Of course, in 3 months you will also need to install heat alarms, and will have significant other restrictions on installations. Attached is the dirty version of the new rules enforced July 1, which show all changes from the old rules. I don't have a clean copy but this is almost exactly the final code wording.

 

[h2ofun]

AHJ are allowed to pull back a permit if they deem a safety violation has occurred and was missed in plan check.

Most AHJ will work with you, if you are the kind of person who is easy to work with, when these kinds of things happen. This is 100% a place where the OSFM, ICC and CRC agree, but the FCAC, and CFC do not agree with them.


I have lost as many as I have won so far, so there's that...

For those who are stuck in this issue, it might be as simple as waiting 3 months or so. Of course, in 3 months you will also need to install heat alarms, and will have significant other restrictions on installations. Attached is the dirty version of the new rules enforced July 1, which show all changes from the old rules. I don't have a clean copy but this is almost exactly the final code wording.

I thought you won 100% of the battles

Those new rules seem fair?

 

[BGbreeder]

Not to be sacrilegious, but there are Enphase batteries that meet UL9540A if you can't wait...

 

[Vines]

I thought you won 100% of the battles

Those new rules seem fair?

No, I know when to accept defeat and when to push back.

The new rules are fair enough, I agree that UL 9540A testing is needed for massive lithium battery installations where thermal runaway is a real concern. The hardest part is that no heat alarm exists for an un conditioned garage. Most jurisdictions are accepting one that has a max ambient temperature of 100-115F, where Santa Clara County is being totally inflexible.

There is literally one model (System Sensor 5600) that will satisfy SCC Fire if the garage is not conditioned. They are saying that any garage needs 5 btu/sqft of cooling ability to be considered conditioned and therefore the 100-115F max one would work (First Alert hd6135fb)

 

[Vines]

Not to be sacrilegious, but there are Enphase batteries that meet UL9540A if you can't wait...

Or Lordeth Strike thee with thy mighty BANHAMMER!

JK, Enphase makes great products too, just not who the company I work for has chosen to partner with.

Now try that enphase installation in San Fransisco, watch them tell you that no NRTL is currently accredited to do this 9540A testing. When you ask OSHA, who does the accreditation, why not, it takes a couple years to get accredited, and nobody currently is.

On top of that OSHA wont accredit anyone, as 9540A is not a pass/fail standard...

 

[holeydonut]

Or Lordeth Strike thee with thy mighty BANHAMMER!

JK, Enphase makes great products too, just not who the company I work for has chosen to partner with.

Now try that enphase installation in San Fransisco, watch them tell you that no NRTL is currently accredited to do this 9540A testing. When you ask OSHA, who does the accreditation, why not, it takes a couple years to get accredited, and nobody currently is.

On top of that OSHA wont accredit anyone, as 9540A is not a pass/fail standard...

I'm kind of confused how San Francisco can just ignore the published UL data on 9540A.
www.UL.com/ul9540a-database

PS. LG Chem Lithium and Samsung SDI are also UL9540A... Elon is too busy trying to get to Mars instead of passing UL certs

 

[badpirate]

Who is "they?" your Tesla installer or the inspector?

Tesla Installer -- They came out to install and then said "Nope, gotta be 3' because your city sucks" and then left

Not to be sacrilegious, but there are Enphase batteries that meet UL9540A if you can't wait...

Can these batteries be added to Tesla installations perchance?

 

[Vines]

I'm kind of confused how San Francisco can just ignore the published UL data on 9540A.
www.UL.com/ul9540a-database

View attachment 648035


PS. LG Chem Lithium and Samsung SDI are also UL9540A... Elon is too busy trying to get to Mars instead of passing UL certs

What they are saying is that nobody state sanctioned like OSHA has accredited UL, Intertek, ETL, or CSA to do the 9540A testing.

 

[SMAlset]

AHJ are allowed to pull back a permit if they deem a safety violation has occurred and was missed in plan check.

Most AHJ will work with you, if you are the kind of person who is easy to work with, when these kinds of things happen. This is 100% a place where the OSFM, ICC and CRC agree, but the FCAC, and CFC do not agree with them.


I have lost as many as I have won so far, so there's that...

For those who are stuck in this issue, it might be as simple as waiting 3 months or so. Of course, in 3 months you will also need to install heat alarms, and will have significant other restrictions on installations. Attached is the dirty version of the new rules enforced July 1, which show all changes from the old rules. I don't have a clean copy but this is almost exactly the final code wording.

Looked over the pdf. Do I understand that this will be California-wide changes then (ie California Fire Marshall)? I would think resell value of homes with existing solar and Powerwalls will increase and people won’t want to do remodeling if it will require them be brought up to new code.

People should think about adding coverage for code updates to their homeowner insurance policies so god forbid your house needs to be rebuilt or partially rebuilt that those additional costs are covered. Thinking hardwired security systems throughout the house with heat sensor in garage and sprinkler system in attic would be two costly additions I picked up on with a cursory review of the changes.

With many California Bay Area homes on small lots and homes built with code requiring so much natural light from windows during construction, I can’t imagine where people will have sufficient wall space to install ESS with all those new requirements. Really floored by all of this. Think this will kill a lot of battery storage projects for people.

 

[SMAlset]

For those of us with existing PWs, if and when Tesla gets UL9540A certification, would this also apply to current installed units?

 

[Vines]

Looked over the pdf. Do I understand that this will be California-wide changes then (ie California Fire Marshall)? I would think resell value of homes with existing solar and Powerwalls will increase and people won’t want to do remodeling if it will require them be brought up to new code.

People should think about adding coverage for code updates to their homeowner insurance policies so god forbid your house needs to be rebuilt or partially rebuilt that those additional costs are covered. Thinking hardwired security systems throughout the house with heat sensor in garage and sprinkler system in attic would be two costly additions I picked up on with a cursory review of the changes.

With many California Bay Area homes on small lots and homes built with code requiring so much natural light from windows during construction, I can’t imagine where people will have sufficient wall space to install ESS with all those new requirements. Really floored by all of this. Think this will kill a lot of battery storage projects for people.

This will be all across California, and I suspect near identical in the IRC, though I am not tracking that.

Existing Powerwalls beyond a certain date may be considered compliant since whenever the Powerwall the equipment last changed.

I do agree that these new rules will require more wall space and many homes will need to get creative to install the ESS units.

 

[miimura]

For those of us with existing PWs, if and when Tesla gets UL9540A certification, would this also apply to current installed units?

That probably depends on whether the product requires any changes to pass the certification.

 

[bayareaever]

My 3 PWs are planned to go in an unfinished portion of my basement (concrete walls/floor), although I do have to walk through a finished portion to get there. Will that be allowed with the new rules?

Also, sorry if this has been stated already, all PWs will have to be 3’ from each other (no stacking anymore) after July 1st in Ca?

If this is over fire/overheating concerns, is there any real world examples of this sort of problem? I’ve never heard of any incidents.

 

[miimura]

I have this light well at the back of my house. I originally wanted the Powerwalls placed there, stacked against the retaining wall furthest from the house on the upper level. The installers said that they couldn't do that because they didn't have a lift or crane to safely lower the heavy Powerwalls down there. Given the new restrictions, would this be an allowable location? The separation from the house would be more than 6 feet with nothing but concrete around the Powerwalls.

 

[wwhitney]

Is your light well a required emergency egress route?

Cheers, Wayne