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Saw a Performance Dual Motor Model 3 today at the track!

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The configurator shows the same rear motor as the single-motor Model 3 for the dual-motor option. I suppose they could be showing a layout that is specific to the performance model here, but that seems doubtful at this stage.View attachment 290975
Yep I can't explain that. Even if it is the performance Model why are the gearboxes the same size? If the front motor has less torque you could make the gearbox smaller and save money and weight. I'm sticking with my prediction that the dual motor will have two smaller identical drive units :)
 
Actually I think you save money by using an existing product in multiple locations. Building a slightly smaller gearbox would actually cost them more since the design and part count would be the same, just slightly less material, which is relatively cheap.
Of course you do. That's why I think Tesla will use the same RWD drive unit in the performance version. The Model 3 is supposed to be a mass production vehicle. I think it will be worth the R&D to optimize the drive unit to the application. They make multiple different drive units for the Model S/X which is much lower volume than planned for the Model 3.
 
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Of course you do. That's why I think Tesla will use the same RWD drive unit in the performance version. The Model 3 is supposed to be a mass production vehicle. I think it will be worth the R&D to optimize the drive unit to the application. They make multiple different drive units for the Model S/X which is much lower volume than planned for the Model 3.
They make *two* drive units for the Model S/X, which isn't that many. And I think that if they were starting from scratch now, they'd probably go for just one, and go for one motor at the front and two at the rear.

I hope they go for that solution for the Model 3/Y. It would be a cost-effective solution with lots of power and versatility.
 
The bigger issue and my continued rant is that there is no announcement of these "Updates" or upgrades? Most car companies give a one year notice of major changes/redesigns. Everyone is assuming a stealth Model S redesign with the addition of some circa 2014 features, blindspot, Topview cameras, HUD, phone integration, but this is pure speculation. I would LOVE a performance Model 3, but worry there will be no notice, much like bumper refresh, folding seats in the X new MCU, etc... I know fanboyz do not care, but I would freak if I spend $70-100k and it is updated the following week... This from a car company that cannot get me a replacement windshield going on 6 WEEKS!!! Seriously, Tesla makes 3 cars, get me some glass!!
Same as any electronics purchase; Is the item I purchase today worth to me the price they are charging? If you buy for your own use this is the standard you use. You then literally can only see upside as they'll add new features via software.

If you're trying to buy for some sort of flipping resale speculation, that's when your concern applies much more. Steer clear of doing that.

Note that the reason that automobile manufacturer are doing what you describe is because of technology stagnation. This makes no sense for Tesla, or other electric vehicles manufacturers. Which is why the established manufacturers are in such a bind here. Their prior business model and practices are a very poor fit for the fundamentals of the new technology and environment. *shrug*
 
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Having two in the back gives practically nothing in return - just makes car less reliable.
Stability blabla is nonsense. If there is no problem, don't fix it.
It's overkill for most vehicle uses. Even on the racetrack (where the bar for 'overkill' raises significantly) with the M3, which isn't really a dedicated race car.

Note though that the Semi is definitely doing it and it does make more sense for it to make it into the rear of the 2020 Roadster. The Roadster is meant to operate way the hell out on the fringe of vehicle physics.
 
Having two in the back gives practically nothing in return - just makes car less reliable.
Stability blabla is nonsense. If there is no problem, don't fix it.
The primary advantage is that you get 50% more motor power and torque vs a two motor solution. On top of that, you get torque vectoring, which is vastly better than a limited slip differential. (Of course, you won't be able to utilize all the motor power, as you will be battery limited, but it allows you to divert power to where you have traction.)

This is obviously not for everyone, but Tesla should try to ensure that the people who pay 10-20k USD for the performance option actually get something in return. On the Model S/X, the performance option will get you an upgraded rear motor, some 375 kW vs 193 kW, and I don't think a Model 3 buyer will be willing to pay a similar percentage premium for a badge and some SW-tweaks.
 
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The primary advantage is that you get 50% more motor power and torque vs a two motor solution. On top of that, you get torque vectoring, which is vastly better than a limited slip differential. (Of course, you won't be able to utilize all the motor power, as you will be battery limited, but it allows you to divert power to where you have traction.)

This is obviously not for everyone, but Tesla should try to ensure that the people who pay 10-20k USD for the performance option actually get something in return. On the Model S/X, the performance option will get you an upgraded rear motor, some 375 kW vs 193 kW, and I don't think a Model 3 buyer will be willing to pay a similar percentage premium for a badge and some SW-tweaks.
That Model S P rear motor is an "upgrade" in the sense that it is the size of the rear-wheel only Model S motor, that the normal D variants don't get. That's why it's likely (though not assured, perhaps instead just software limited to save on hardware part variant counts) that the [non-performance] LR-D will get a smaller rear motor, while the P will get the current LR's rear wheel motor.
 
Having two in the back gives practically nothing in return - just makes car less reliable.
Stability blabla is nonsense. If there is no problem, don't fix it.
I need at least 500hp and carbon ceramic brakes for my commute. A standard open differential will result lose me precious seconds. Haha just kidding. Of course this is all overkill. Even a standard RWD Model 3 is overkill. If I didn't want overkill I'd buy a Nissan Leaf. The point is that to compete with the ridiculous overkill that is the BMW M3 the Model 3 is going to need a limited slip differential. Two rear motors seems like an elegant solution because it eliminates the need for any differential at all.
 
That Model S P rear motor is an "upgrade" in the sense that it is the size of the rear-wheel only Model S motor, that the normal D variants don't get. That's why it's likely (though not assured, perhaps instead just software limited to save on hardware part variant counts) that the [non-performance] LR-D will get a smaller rear motor, while the P will get the current LR's rear wheel motor.
I just don't see any reason for developing a new rear drive unit for the dual motor Model 3, just to make the dual motor Model 3 worse, and to save a few hundred dollars in material costs.

On the Model S it made more sense to add a smaller rear motor, as they needed to develop the motor anyway for the front, the material cost difference is bigger, and you also got improvements on produceability, reliability and efficiency. The large rear motor design on the S/X is based heavily on the Roadster...

Also, if you look at other auto makers, they're certainly working on three motor designs with torque vectoring. For instance, the Audi e-tron will get it. If the Model 3 doesn't get it, Tesla risks having the Model 3 seem outdated in a few years.
 
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The point is that to compete with the ridiculous overkill of the BMW M3 the Model 3 is going to need

Why compete with vehicle that has very very low sale numbers?
Most popular choice is 320d by a MASSIVE margin (5x more than 330d).
And the reason is mostly: price vs performance. It's fast enough. Why bother more power?

Open differential is likely one of the most reliable car part ever:cool: second motor with second reduction gear and second oil pump and oil filter and commutator and cooling jacket and inverter and HV connections might not be.

I hope SR Model 3 will get smaller single drive unit and we get small price drop. 35k is almost too expensive in few years.
There is no technical reason for Tesla not to do this.
 
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I just don't see any reason for developing a new rear drive unit for the dual motor Model 3, just to make the dual motor Model 3 worse, and to save a few hundred dollars in material costs.

On the Model S it made more sense to add a smaller rear motor, as they needed to develop the motor anyway for the front, the material cost difference is bigger, and you also got improvements on produceability, reliability and efficiency. The large rear motor design on the S/X is based heavily on the Roadster...

Also, if you look at other auto makers, they're certainly working on three motor designs with torque vectoring. For instance, the Audi e-tron will get it. If the Model 3 doesn't get it, Tesla risks having the Model 3 seem outdated in a few years.
A few hundred dollars on 100k+ cars is not nothing. A smaller motor/gearbox is slightly more efficient and they are already developing it for the front!
 
Why compete with vehicle that has very very low sale numbers?
Most popular choice is 320d by a MASSIVE margin (5x more than 330d).
And the reason is mostly: price vs performance. It's fast enough. Why bother more power?

I hope SR Model 3 will get smaller single drive unit and we get small price drop. 35k is almost too expensive in few years.
There is no technical reason for Tesla not to do this.
Ah, I didn't notice you are from Europe. Americans are not rational about their cars. Haha. More is always better!
We don't even have a 320d here. 320i is the lowest power 3 series and it has 180hp and it is quite rare. Most of the 3 series I see are the 328i and 340i (240hp and 320hp).
Tesla is making the new roadster and I don't think that will sell in very high volumes.
 
Having two in the back gives practically nothing in return - just makes car less reliable.
Stability blabla is nonsense. If there is no problem, don't fix it.

Lossless differential traction control in all conditions, programmable bias like the expensive LSD units.
Better cooling potential.
Less driveline rotational mass. This is because the dia of the motors and reduction gears would be smaller.
Lighter parts. Each axle side does not need the strength to handle full torque bias.
More vertical space.
Higher RPM motors can be used.
No wear components.
Assists with Stability Control without brake wear.
Less problems when ABS and regen used concurrently. You don't have to use a brake to keep regen drag equal.

But it's more likely to continue use the braking method and a single motor.
 
The primary advantage is that you get 50% more motor power and torque vs a two motor solution. On top of that, you get torque vectoring, which is vastly better than a limited slip differential. (Of course, you won't be able to utilize all the motor power, as you will be battery limited, but it allows you to divert power to where you have traction.)

Top end will be battery (power) limited, but won't low end torque stay the same due to traction limits? Each motor only having half the rear weight on its drive wheel.
 
I just don't see any reason for developing a new rear drive unit for the dual motor Model 3, just to make the dual motor Model 3 worse, and to save a few hundred dollars in material costs.

On the Model S it made more sense to add a smaller rear motor, as they needed to develop the motor anyway for the front

You expect the AWD M3 to have the same sized front motor as the current rear motor? The LR battery pack probably can't put out enough C to fully drive two of those. The rear-only motor appears capable of drawing approximately 2/3 of the LR's nominal maximum current/power.

Same reasons for having a smaller motors apply to the M3 as for the MS. The differences in absolute dollar costs and curb weight may be modestly smaller but they'll be similar, if not higher as a % of overall vehicle price and weight.

As I mentioned, clearly Tesla is working on the motor-per-wheel design direction in other vehicles. There are definitely benefits to the approach.

However it's a LOT of re-engineering and is not clear that sort of massive investment in effort is worth such a drastic rework for simply a variant. Or even for the Model Y, which they aim to "keep it simple" with to the point that they scrubbed doing the design work to get rid of the 12V lead battery system.

When it becomes more common in vehicles down the road that is NOT going to cause the Model 3 to stop driving. It'll still get the job of transporting down, and rather efficiently at that. The basic design has several years of use ahead of it.
 
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...they seem to have hit the basic 3series level handling in their first attempt.
I know the M division has that legacy, and you may end up being right, but don’t bet too hard against Tesla’s brain trust.

If we're betting on the brain trust, the table tilts decidedly against Tesla. I know its blasphemous for some, but the areas Tesla has the hardest time standing out from (and in some cases, just trying to keep up with) legacy automakers are the legacy metrics. Build quality and consistency, reliability, performance(***) creature comforts, etc. That ratchets up even farther when you look at the Tesla record for how well their "First try" efforts go. A-pack, seats, drive units, door handles, FWD, etc.

Tesla's strengths lay squarely in the areas that Legacy automakers have't yet or are just starting to touch. Electric drive train technology, clean cockpit, supercharging network, dealership elimination, etc.

***As shown by other automakers recently (like Jaguar), Tesla's acceleration advantage has really been a result of their first-to-market electric drivetrain, not any unique capability/secret sauce within that technology.

Point being, it really is nothing more than hopes and dreams to think that Tesla would on their first try be able to come anywhere close to the real handling bar set by a BMW M3.

And again, I'm buying a Model 3P. I don't need the handling of an M3 for anything I might possibly do with the car, and I definitely don't need gasoline in my life.
 
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You expect the AWD M3 to have the same sized front motor as the current rear motor? The LR battery pack probably can't put out enough C to fully drive two of those. The rear-only motor appears capable of drawing approximately 2/3 of the LR's nominal maximum current/power.

Same reasons for having a smaller motors apply to the M3 as for the MS. The differences in absolute dollar costs and curb weight may be modestly smaller but they'll be similar, if not higher as a % of overall vehicle price and weight.

As I mentioned, clearly Tesla is working on the motor-per-wheel design direction in other vehicles. There are definitely benefits to the approach.

However it's a LOT of re-engineering and is not clear that sort of massive investment in effort is worth such a drastic rework for simply a variant. Or even for the Model Y, which they aim to "keep it simple" with to the point that they scrubbed doing the design work to get rid of the 12V lead battery system.

When it becomes more common in vehicles down the road that is NOT going to cause the Model 3 to stop driving. It'll still get the job of transporting down, and rather efficiently at that. The basic design has several years of use ahead of it.

I don't read what he wrote as him claiming the FRONT drive unit would be the same as the REAR drive unit, only that the REAR drive unit in the AWD variant might be the same for both FWD and RWD cars.

The argument for keeping the same rear drive module in both cars is manufacturing simplification. The argument for using a new rear drive unit is that they have to develop a new front drive module anyway so why not use it for both front and rear.

My money is on them using the same rear drive unit in both RWD and AWD variants and potentially doing some things to limit current flow to the rear unit when the front unit is simultaneously engaged, such as under launch conditions.