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lolachampcar
Well-Known Member
If I had no scruples and were heavily into a short position, I'd arrange an insurance claim a week. Not saying that this is what is happening. What I am saying is the shorts are not stupid and will pick up on the idea.
I've asked Tesla for high end ICE v. MS fires per X miles driven data. There is no doubt that MS "burns better" than an ICE in that it (1) warns you to get out and (2) seems to delay between damage and fire sufficiently to allow you to get out and (3) does not reduce itself to a smoldering pile of rubble like an ICE. The question remains, how often does it happen in comparison.
If Tesla does not do this work, someone else will and the results will be painted in a non-flattering light.
I've asked Tesla for high end ICE v. MS fires per X miles driven data. There is no doubt that MS "burns better" than an ICE in that it (1) warns you to get out and (2) seems to delay between damage and fire sufficiently to allow you to get out and (3) does not reduce itself to a smoldering pile of rubble like an ICE. The question remains, how often does it happen in comparison.
If Tesla does not do this work, someone else will and the results will be painted in a non-flattering light.
Raffy.Roma
Rome (Italy)
VERY INTERESTING!!
So if it the battery pack is intact what happened? Why the car caught fire?
And none in California where the majority of them still are (6000+ out of 19000). One of them should have been in Ca statistically. I think we need to clean up the streets of the Midwest and Northwest! The type of debris the cars hit were atypical. Did both the US cars have air suspensions riding low? I think so.. Hmmm
Seven7
Member
Cheapest way to upgrade the bottom of the battery, spray on truck bed liner, (spay both sides) I know alot of you are going to laugh at that, but it can make cheap steel almost bullet proof. Other than that ditch the aluminum battery bottom for abrasion 500 steel, weight gain and cost gain, but an 1/8 or more thick sheet will stop all kinds of things, you know what I'm talking about.
[video]http://youtube.com/watch?v=3JOXrpCLCJg[/video]
[video]http://youtube.com/watch?v=3JOXrpCLCJg[/video]
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Seven7
Member
I'm honestly thinking about it, I would really like to do the inside as well, but thats going to be a little tougher than just zapping the bottom of the car while on a lift. I might call Tesla and ask them if painting the bottom of the exterior would void or affect my battery warranty
You'd have to hit something rather significant for the gas tank to be ruptured on an ICE vehicle. It located in the back of the car and higher up than the rest of the chassis. Just because ICE vehicles use gasoline doesn't automatically mean they will explode at any given moment. First thing to go if you hit something on the highway is suspension and the bottom of the engine. And usually when you take out the oil pan on an ICE they just stop working, and don't explode
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bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
You'd have to hit something rather significant for the gas tank to be ruptured on an ICE vehicle. It located in the back of the car and higher up than the rest of the chassis. Just because ICE vehicles use gasoline doesn't automatically mean they will explode at any given moment. First thing to go if you hit something on the highway is suspension and the bottom of the engine. And usually when you take out the oil pan on an ICE they just stop working, and don't explode
Ok, but do the ICE cars remain stable and allow the driver to safely pull over and exit the vehicle unharmed? Maybe, but I could also see some components being taken out in the process that would cause the driver to lose control and spin out potentially harming others as well.
I answered this with a "yes-recall necessary", but in reality I just don't have enough information to make an informed response. I'd really like to know what Tesla's research into these incidents shows. I hope that they are very transparent with their findings...a long blog with photos, conclusions, technical structural data, etc. See if THEY think that improvements can be made that are reasonable and will be effective, then I will decide if my conclusion is the same as theirs. i expect we'll see something...but i'm afraid that 'something' is going to be elimination of the "low" suspension setting meaning reduced range.
Really any damage that would cause a vehicle to spin out of control can happen to either type of vehicle since they share most of their design traits (sans powertrain). If the ICE seizes then the car can spin out of control, but the same can be said about the motor on an EV if it seizes up. Yes the Tesla has superior diagnostic systems in place to alert the driver there is a problem (versus just a check engine light). As to your first question, I can't really answer that. It depends on a case by case basis. I'd say that battery punctures are overall safer for occupants than the bottom of an ICE or gas tank getting punctured, but just wanted to clarify that ICE vehicles don't just explode because of damage. They do have a higher probability of it due to the presence of more flammable fluids, but technically almost every fluid used in modern cars is flammable in some way. Brake fluid, coolant, oil, gasoline, wiper fluid can all catch fire given the correct circumstances.
bareyb
Active Member
In all my 35+ years of driving, I have never hit an "object" in the road. I'm not real worried about it. Apparently the worst thing that can happen is that my car would tell me to pull over. Even if caught on fire, it would vent the fire under the car long after I was out of the car. Assuming no helpful Firemen come along and start beating holes into the top with axes the car would be fine and my insurance could deal with it. This is all assuming that the latest fire is not a hoax… The timing seems awfully suspect. I'll reserve final judgement until the latest incident has been investigated more thoroughly. Gonna laugh if it was staged and the stock goes zooming back up tomorrow.
While driving my limo down the highway in the dark I heard a metallic bang under the front about 2-3 miles later I said to my son I am pulling over the rear does not seem right. Sure enough the metallic object exited through a tire. Got roadside assist to install the spare and thought no more of it. A week or two later I am leaking oil. I go to the mechanic put the car up on the lift and we look at oil leaking from the oil pan; he replaces the oil pan and the gasket. About a month later we realize that I am leaking oil again now we determine the serious bad news. Whatever I struck did severe damage to the bottom of the engine requiring the bottom of a big V8 to be rebuilt from the oil pan side. Price several thousand dollars. Debris can and ruin any vehicle. PS. I never fixed it I just sold it.
Seven7
Member
I know, it sounds goofy, but hey it might work, if not, back to the drawing board. Not trunk liner either, something more like this.
http://armacoatings.com/military/
ETA: It's the easiest and cheapest way to do a fix if a recall is needed, you could also do combinations of stuff to protect the battery, another layer of aluminum, a layer of tri directional fiberglass, anything to add protection to the battery. Putting a layer of high abrasion steel is going to add weight and cost a fortune, so, lets look for some alternatives that might work just as well or better while costing / weighing less. This all assumes that the battery getting stuck is the problem.
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Road Debris
Road debris is more common than most people seem to think. This piece from wikipedia is an eye-opener.
"Road debris is a hazard that can cause fishtailing and damage like a flat tire or even a traffic accident with injury or death. Road debris can cause loss of control crashes, rollover crashes, or penetration of the passenger compartment by the debris.
Released in early 2013, NHTSA data for 2011 showed over 800 Americans were killed that year in vehicle collisions with road debris. Mississippi, Wyoming, Arkansas, Kentucky and Louisiana were the top five states for these crash deaths to most likely occur. Also in 2011, New York and Massachusetts saw significant increases in road debris-vehicular crash deaths, unlike other big, populated states. In 2004, a AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety study revealed that vehicle-related road debris caused 25,000 accidents—and nearly 100 deaths—each year. At highway speeds, even small debris can be deadly."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_debris
In this perspective, Model S is a very safe car. It alerts passengers. It gives enough time to exit. Fire is (relatively) small and contained.
Road debris is more common than most people seem to think. This piece from wikipedia is an eye-opener.
"Road debris is a hazard that can cause fishtailing and damage like a flat tire or even a traffic accident with injury or death. Road debris can cause loss of control crashes, rollover crashes, or penetration of the passenger compartment by the debris.
Released in early 2013, NHTSA data for 2011 showed over 800 Americans were killed that year in vehicle collisions with road debris. Mississippi, Wyoming, Arkansas, Kentucky and Louisiana were the top five states for these crash deaths to most likely occur. Also in 2011, New York and Massachusetts saw significant increases in road debris-vehicular crash deaths, unlike other big, populated states. In 2004, a AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety study revealed that vehicle-related road debris caused 25,000 accidents—and nearly 100 deaths—each year. At highway speeds, even small debris can be deadly."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_debris
In this perspective, Model S is a very safe car. It alerts passengers. It gives enough time to exit. Fire is (relatively) small and contained.
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I really don't think we can take anything meaningful from these two incidents from a statistical perspective. We're really just completely within the margin of error here - there could be an issue where the model S is more susceptible to damage from road debris, or this could just be a freak occurrence (and one that we're ALL more sensitive to in light of the current stock situation, and the proximity to the Q3 results).
The only really reasonable thing to do at this point is to wait and see what the NHTSA and the Tesla engineers come up with when they look at it. 2 incidents in almost 20,000 cars and many millions of miles is statistically insignificant. 2 incidents and a level of expert engineering analysis that points to a problem would be something to worry about. Until we get to that point, i'm perfectly happy with my Model S exactly as it is (and my stock position as well for that matter).
The only really reasonable thing to do at this point is to wait and see what the NHTSA and the Tesla engineers come up with when they look at it. 2 incidents in almost 20,000 cars and many millions of miles is statistically insignificant. 2 incidents and a level of expert engineering analysis that points to a problem would be something to worry about. Until we get to that point, i'm perfectly happy with my Model S exactly as it is (and my stock position as well for that matter).
While you're at it, please mandate that the gas tank in every single ICE car in the world also get recalled to redesign to use Kevlar or use something other than flammable gasoline lol
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