Seems like FSD is a complete crock

[diplomat33]

Is the amount of time that the system needs to give the driver to take over explicitly defined by SAE for level 3.
I've seen descriptions of level 3 state that the driver has to be ready to take over immediately, but I haven't read the actual SAE J0316 text.

I don't think so, but I'm not completely sure. Certainly I haven't seen a single number quoted repeatedly.

Here is what I found in the SAE document, page 7:

"At level 3, an ADS is capable of continuing to perform the DDT for at least several seconds after providing the fallback ready user with a request to intervene."

So the SAE only says "at least several seconds" but does not give a specific number of seconds.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

don't think Tesla has specifically said what SAE autonomy level the system will be at when it reaches what they consider "feature complete" I think it's currently level 3 on limited access highways. and will be level 3 when they come out with the ability to recognize stop signs and traffic lights and navigate on local roads.

I think most people think it will be level 2 for the next couple years at least. In the current description on the website, it sounds like a level 2 system. And from a liability perspective that's what makes sense. Personally I think it's a bad idea to attempt to release it even at level 2, but never mind.

 

[Tjhappel]

You seem to be the only guy really singing its praises. And you do post very often. Thank you for that. Most everybody else is a lot less positive on it.

No way, ap on California freeways is absolutely exceptional. NoA ehhhhh but on 2 lane highways like 395 to mammoth it does a fine job. Actual ap tho is very very good on freeways right now.

 

[SSonnentag]

Listening to some perspectives on here you would think AP or NOA are so unreliable to the point of being unusable. In reality they are complaining about events that in my experience happen on rare occasions and 95% (or more) of the time the system works great. Why not take advantage of how good it is "most" of the time, and just be prepared that it won't be 100% of the time.

There is definitely an issue with Tesla calling their currently available package FSD. The FSD package contains features that are available today (NOA and Autopark) So "FSD" is working today (in Beta). New customers may not know the history of EAP and what features it previously consisted of. For them if you want NOA and Autopark you need the FSD package. So in the current context to say none of the FSD features have been delivered is incorrect.

I don't think Tesla has specifically said what SAE autonomy level the system will be at when it reaches what they consider "feature complete" I think it's currently level 3 on limited access highways. and will be level 3 when they come out with the ability to recognize stop signs and traffic lights and navigate on local roads. Basically it will attempt to do everything on it's own, but you will need to be able to take over at any time. I think level 4 or 5 are probably off a bit, but I think full level 3 would be awesome.

People who won't be happy until FSD is true SAE level 5 are going to be disappointed for a long while.

EAP includes NOA and AutoPark.

 

[goRt]

As soon as other OEMs start offering all the features a la carte.

VW does...

 

[totteraptor]

Based on the other threads here it seems like FSD is a complete lie. Crazy unexpected braking, can’t autopark, wanders over the road towards the center line, runs straight into stationary objects be it a simple traffic barrel or the side of a tractor trailer.

Am I getting the wrong impression here?

I got my brand new M3 end of June 2019 and much to my grievance I must admit that AutoPilot is far from what I was expecting. In Switzerland NoA is not legal but I do have the FSD potential option. My brother just asked me if he should buy a Tesla so he could do TCs during his daily commuting - and I had to admit that today my M3 is only providing me with distance control + lane assist.
I sincerely hope that the upcoming autumn update to firmware 10 will make AP more autonomous.

 

[goRt]

@EVNow - Please step back from the Kool-Aide... More seriously, this (see snapshot below) is exactly what Tesla is advertising today. I just logged on and took this snapshot. There's the first section, where the false "Really" representation (implying enhanced summon capability, not regular straight line 25' functionality) is made and the second (bottom) portion that includes year end representations - all for $6000 up front.
View attachment 436137

We have the same feature list advertised in the UK right now, however some of those features are excluded due to regulation.
The consumer association (you may know it as Which?) has a case in progress against Tesla for false advertising.

 

[scott1002]

Given the level of non-trust with the company, I wonder next if they're gonna come back and say:

We have the same feature list advertised in the UK right now, however some of those features are excluded due to regulation.
The consumer association (you may know it as Which?) has a case in progress against Tesla for false advertising.

I have always loved the "Really" at the end of the summons bullet.

I feel like every bullet should have that at the end. When the feature on that bullet actually works of course.

 

[scott1002]

I got my brand new M3 end of June 2019 and much to my grievance I must admit that AutoPilot is far from what I was expecting. In Switzerland NoA is not legal but I do have the FSD potential option. My brother just asked me if he should buy a Tesla so he could do TCs during his daily commuting - and I had to admit that today my M3 is only providing me with distance control + lane assist.
I sincerely hope that the upcoming autumn update to firmware 10 will make AP more autonomous.

So do you regret the overall purchase?

 

[goRt]

Given the level of non-trust with the company, I wonder next if they're gonna come back and say:


I have always loved the "Really" at the end of the summons bullet.

I feel like every bullet should have that at the end. When the feature on that bullet actually works of course.

But those are on features that don't work yet (in the UK)

 

[North75]

Here is what I found in the SAE document, page 7:

"At level 3, an ADS is capable of continuing to perform the DDT for at least several seconds after providing the fallback ready user with a request to intervene."

So the SAE only says "at least several seconds" but does not give a specific number of seconds.

Ok based on that I guess Tesla’s features will probably be level 2 for a while.

 

[diplomat33]

Ok based on that I guess Tesla’s features will probably be level 2 for a while.

Yes, AP is level 2 right now but I wouldn't say "for awhile". Actually, the way NOA informs the driver to take over several seconds in advance when NOA is about to leave its ODD, is a level 3 characteristic. So the requirement to inform the driver in advance is not what is keeping AP at level 2. AP is level 2 because it lacks some of the OEDR. As soon as Tesla finishes the OEDR, AP will be capable of being more than a driver assist and becoming a self-driving, L3 or higher, system.

 

[EVNow]

Yes, AP is level 2 right now but I wouldn't say "for awhile". Actually, the way NOA informs the driver to take over several seconds in advance when NOA is about to leave its ODD, is a level 3 characteristic. So the requirement to inform the driver in advance is not what is keeping AP at level 2. AP is level 2 because it lacks some of the OEDR. As soon as Tesla finishes the OEDR, AP will be capable of being more than a driver assist and becoming a self-driving, L3 or higher, system.

AP will remain at Level 2 until Tesla actuaries think there is low enough risk to call it L3/L4. So, yes, I think it will remain at L2 "for a while".

 

[Twiglett]

Based on the other threads here it seems like FSD is a complete lie. Crazy unexpected braking, can’t autopark, wanders over the road towards the center line, runs straight into stationary objects be it a simple traffic barrel or the side of a tractor trailer.

Am I getting the wrong impression here?

You have the wrong impression.
FSD isn’t available.
What you’re describing is Autopilot not FSD

 

[EVNow]

VW does...

I've to look - but I'm sure some features (not just talking about DAS) are available with certain trims. That's how "autopark" could be a $1k option with some OEMs, but you need to purchase a trim that could be several thousands above the base trim to get that option.

For eg., with Nissan Leaf, pro-pilot is only available with the highest trim, SL.

ps : Talking about confusing / wrong feature list, for eg., when I go to build Jetta, it shows "blind spot monitor" as available in the second trim. But it is in the DAS option - and will be available if bought with the base trim.

 

[scott1002]

I kinda don’t mind waiting for the software to improve. I am concerned that the “other shoe” drops in 2 years when they say that the current camera-sensor set isn’t sufficient after all and you’d need to purchase a new car to really get FSD.

 

[scott1002]

You have the wrong impression.
FSD isn’t available.
What you’re describing is Autopilot not FSD

Funny how I could get the impression that it’s FSD since the website says specifically still that I would be buying “Full Self Driving Capability”. And that is a direct quote.

 

[EVNow]

I kinda don’t mind waiting for the software to improve. I am concerned that the “other shoe” drops in 2 years when they say that the current camera-sensor set isn’t sufficient after all and you’d need to purchase a new car to really get FSD.

In that (unlikely) case, Tesla will return (part of) the money.

Afterall we know FSD has been solved using just 2 cameras

 

[goRt]

I've to look - but I'm sure some features (not just talking about DAS) are available with certain trims. That's how "autopark" could be a $1k option with some OEMs, but you need to purchase a trim that could be several thousands above the base trim to get that option.

For eg., with Nissan Leaf, pro-pilot is only available with the highest trim, SL.

ps : Talking about confusing / wrong feature list, for eg., when I go to build Jetta, it shows "blind spot monitor" as available in the second trim. But it is in the DAS option - and will be available if bought with the base trim.

Sorry, I bought the top-spec Golf R, the options were TACC (standard across the entire GOLF range since 2014), then there's lane assist, then blind spot monitor, then road sign reading (but VW doesn't act on these, just display). So that's 4 different pricing options, these are available across the whole range.
Auto park is only available on a subset of models.

 

[Watts_Up]

Sorry, I bought the top-spec Golf R, the options were TACC (standard across the entire GOLF range since 2014),
then there's lane assist, then blind spot monitor, then road sign reading (but VW doesn't act on these, just display).
So that's 4 different pricing options, these are available across the whole range.
Auto park is only available on a subset of models.

I don't this TACC is available if you have a manual gearbox.

Also, I believe this rely on a front radar, I don't think there are cameras, and uses GPS to get the speed sign?

I remember driving a GTI with advance cruise control, I was following a car but because of a curb
the car in front of me was not visible, so my car started to accelerate. This was a little bit scary.

Did you ever experienced something similar?