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Wiki Selling TSLA Options - Be the House

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I have found National Bank to be soft on margin calls.
they haven’t liquidated anything in 48 hours.
I sold some positions I wanted to sell for a long time, transfered extra money and initiated some positions transfers from another account. However, they could have liquidated some Puts positions at the very low this morning, instead they reviewed my trades and let me roll the -p1115 and -p1050 to next month.

I might have been ok to leave the -p1050 alone but when I saw 980 this morning I thought the 730 max pain target from MMs could become a real thing. Chickened out for nothing.

Respect to the ones who held the line and had managed to do the hardest thing to do: nothing.
Agreed.

Another great lesson learned. I rolled my BPS 1050/900 this morning out a week. Made a small credit, but most likely will be leaving some dollars and/or time on the table. Oh well. Can't complain; still very happy with the way the day ended. And like I said, another good data point in my education.
 
No way man. Take the knowledge from here and learn from it and apply it to your own portfolio.

We were playing would you rather with our son last week and he asked would you rather loose all of your possessions or all of your memories. I didn’t think long and said possessions.

He said but all that money. I said so what, with the knowledge I have I can rebuild it. He said you don’t have one penny left. I said yea, I’d go get a job and start from scratch. It Mike take a decade to start to build it back up to make really nice returns but it would happen.

So many people get into big problems when they manage someone else’s money or follow their trades. When you follow trades and don’t know how to repair bad ones on your own you are stuck.

This isn’t targeted at you duke. It’s just a trigger of mine, mostly from friends and family asking me to manage their accounts and tell them what to do. Only one so far has started with post one of this thread. 😢

Ahem . . . it was a joke. Most here are in awe of @Yoona's returns.
 
I keep finding myself arguing with myself about the gravy as well... I always feel weird NOT having a BPS paired with a BCS. Another one of those muscles that need exercise.

I came to the realization (that most of you probably did long before me) that pairing these into an IC does tie my hands, a bit. I'm then always fretting BOTH directions and hoping things trade in a specific window. In the end, because I want both the BPS and the BCS to hit high marks in terms of profit, I hold on to them both longer than I should and am giving away $$$ by not getting into the next position sooner.
 
I'm actually not too upset with my rolls. Most gave me $10/week to maintain the same strikes. The only income I really gave up was reducing 10% of my BPS from 1050/850 down to 900/750, which cost me 60% of the potential additional income. But the main goal now is to avoid a big loss. Today's close was great, and I'm more confident we are above 1100 in two weeks, but I would much prefer that I didn't have any BPS In or Near the Money right now. I though about making IC by selling a bunch of BCS, but it was only generating $2/contract at the strikes I was looking at, and I felt that those were too risky already, so I held off. I will hopefully harvest more money for the month on BCS by waiting until 1200 and then going 20% above that. If I survive the next three weeks, I promise to be more conservative going forward - pinkie swear.
 
Just got back down from the mountain. What a pleasant surprise to see the price (no service backcountry)! I guess I rolled too soon this morning. I have to agree with others though, about risk management. If you aren’t rolling when spreads are getting itm or near 1/2 spread width, why have a wider spread? I’m glad I got paid to roll, even though I am likely leaving time on the table. After being burned by BCS after the Hertz announcement, I’m still a little hesitant. Those selling $1100 calls and spreads for this Friday are braver than I!
 
I came to the realization (that most of you probably did long before me) that pairing these into an IC does tie my hands, a bit. I'm then always fretting BOTH directions and hoping things trade in a specific window. In the end, because I want both the BPS and the BCS to hit high marks in terms of profit, I hold on to them both longer than I should and am giving away $$$ by not getting into the next position sooner.
I feel the same regarding ICs and in particular the call credit spreads.

I've found that I can get a similar dynamic - making money in both directions - by using covered calls with purchased calls as backing. The difference on the call side is that if I were to get caught out by something like the Hertz announcement then I'd sell off the lcc's. I'll take a hit in terms of opportunity cost but I won't be taking a big capital loss. I.e. - I might have a 1000 strike call that goes so far ITM that I 'take assignment' (BTC the short call plus STC the long call) once the rolls on the ITM short call aren't as good as I'd like.


NOT-ADVICE

The problem I've been having with this idea is that I haven't actually been as aggressive on the call side as I really want to be. Accordingly - I took a deep breath this morning and when shares were around 1000 I sold 1000 strike calls for this Friday ($30 credits - now priced at $70. Ah well) covering all of my Jan and Feb 900 strike purchased calls. These are both relatively minor positions for me. My plan is to wait for those covering calls to have very little extrinsic value remaining and then roll them to a new position. That might be straight out - it might be for max strike gain - and it might be a combo. The idea is to start getting some experience with managing really aggressive covered call strikes this way.

In this particular situation my Jan monthlies (next week) are currently worth $100 (1000 - 900) plus the $30 credit received. I'll get 1 roll and then those Jan monthlies will be a wrap (they'll also end up as a fairly large loss per share due to purchasing them too early on the way down). But the experience I'll be gaining is worth it (to me).

Similar idea for the Feb 900s - I'll be rolling those 1000 strike calls for strike and credit improvements with a heavy bias towards collecting large premiums over aggressive strike improvements. I don't want these to go back OTM due to max strike improvement rolls. So probably $10ish credit each week plus whatever strike improvement comes along with that. And if/when they do go OTM, then the next sale will be ATM or close.

I'm going to be learning a lot about aggressive CC sales the next month and a half.
 
1 of 4

NOT-ADVICE!!

This is the first of a few posts I've been saving up over the last couple of weeks. I've got 4 topics I'll go 1 per post with to help keep them separate. The topic on this post is "When to Exit a Roll". (As a reminder - my objective is dividend like income, not growing the portfolio, though the portfolio grows faster or slower than straight share ownership when I achieve dividend like income).


Friday Dec 31st I had some covered calls open. They had been rolled from the previous week and the net of the 2 positions was around $6-9 premium, with those covered calls costing me $8 to close at that point at around an 80% profit. I didn't have the actual accumulated credits and I thought I was still slightly negative.

I also was looking forward to P&D over the weekend or Monday, and was expecting something good (not nearly as good as actually reported).


The thought - close now for a small loss and then reassess on Monday or next week, or let it ride?

What I did - let it ride. The problem isn't really that I let it ride (Monday was the huge up day), though that was contrary to what I expected on Monday. The problem is WHY I let it ride. I wanted the overall roll position to get to 50% plus profit and I wasn't there yet.

Whether a big or small loss, considering the rest of my situation and my expectation for the P&D news I should have closed, regardless of whether it was a big or small, gain or loss. Those covered calls were priced as well as I expected them to be for 1-4 weeks. And especially with the overall situation amounting to 2 weeks of no income ("losing" 1/26th of an income that is 6x what my family has lived with during my paycheck career = good risk management).


The lesson for me is to treat positions I roll into as being separate from previous positions. Or at least don't be so attached to making that particular trade profitable. I should just take losses that need 1-4 weeks to recover from. If that position had been at +10% and thus a big overall loss, then -maybe- my decision would/should have been different. I don't know - I wasn't in that situation :)
 
So far my BTO just above and below SP has gone well, I've been trying BTO Calls and Puts barely OTM with a GTC at 10% 2-5 DTE. All have closed, including my fat fingering of a BTO Put 14 DTE with today's major MMD. I'm just not sure all this work is worth it though and will convert to a BTO Call DTE 3-10 when I feel SP is unrealistically low with a GTC at 100%.

Date BTOExpiresStrikeTradeSPBTCSTCNTotal
1/51/71,145Call1,146$25.58$28.501$292
1/61/71,055Put1,045$19.80$21.783$594
1/61/71,065Call1,060$18.01$19.813$540
1/61/141,034Put1,030$36.75$40.432$735
1/61/71,046Put1,055$23.10$25.412$462
1/61/211,046Put1,035$59.12$65.031$591
1/61/71,060Call1,067$23.06$25.372$461
1/61/71,060Call1,065$22.15$24.372$443
1/61/71,060Call1,069$24.40$26.843$732
Total$4,851
 
So far my BTO just above and below SP has gone well, I've been trying BTO Calls and Puts barely OTM with a GTC at 10% 2-5 DTE. All have closed, including my fat fingering of a BTO Put 14 DTE with today's major MMD. I'm just not sure all this work is worth it though and will convert to a BTO Call DTE 3-10 when I feel SP is unrealistically low with a GTC at 100%.

Date BTOExpiresStrikeTradeSPBTCSTCNTotal
1/51/71,145Call1,146$25.58$28.501$292
1/61/71,055Put1,045$19.80$21.783$594
1/61/71,065Call1,060$18.01$19.813$540
1/61/141,034Put1,030$36.75$40.432$735
1/61/71,046Put1,055$23.10$25.412$462
1/61/211,046Put1,035$59.12$65.031$591
1/61/71,060Call1,067$23.06$25.372$461
1/61/71,060Call1,065$22.15$24.372$443
1/61/71,060Call1,069$24.40$26.843$732
Total$4,851

So is the BTC column the delta between open and close or is it just the close value? If the latter, what was your open price?
 
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2 or 4. When to Enter a Roll.

Those calls I mentioned above - the Jan 7 1100s that I rolled to Jan 14 1150s on Monday the 3rd. I really didn't want to roll them on that Monday but with the shares going to the moon (1170ish share price when I rolled, and later just over 1200 on the day) I decided to proceed. That roll worked out well as the shares reversed heavily (as we well know) and the rolled position was closable early, so it worked out. With my evolving lcc strategy though this was the wrong choice and won't be a roll I'll choose in the future (details below).


MORE NOT-ADVICE (I have lots of that)

But it got me thinking about when to enter a roll. Something I've figured out for myself pretty quickly is that my roll criteria for the two types of trades I'm doing (put credit spreads and lcc) are different.

The general observation is that everything else being equal I want to be rolling as close to expiration, and more precisely very low extrinsic value, rather than earlier. The problem with rolling at "high" extrinsic value is that in the roll, step 1 is to buy back all of that extrinsic value. I then get to sell that time value in the new position, but that big extrinsic buy-back puts the new position further behind.

Mostly this means Thu/Fri instead of Monday, and my two recent rolls on Mondays are re-enforcing "don't roll on Monday". That's not a rule for me though as I -have- been caught out on big moves where the good roll was on Monday and it got significantly worse as the week went along :). But that does lead to more detailed logic that is different (for me) between puts and calls.


On the call side I am selling lcc, and I want to (start) selling pretty aggressive covering call strikes. Like ATM or as much as 5% OTM, and even ITM at times. The first thing I've figured out on calls - if the strike I'm selling is > leap strike + purchase price (so my 900s I paid $198 for; I want to sell the 1100 strike or higher), then I'm pretty much ready and willing to sell ATM or even a bit ITM. The relationship means that if I hit my worst case and need to 'take assignment' then my strike to strike change on the purchased and sold call will be roughly $0, leaving me in possession of all of the (high) premiums I've been collecting. Above that level is nice of course, but I won't chase the share price upwards all that aggressively. It comes back most of the time and with my income focus I don't need the big capital gain on the purchased calls. And the aggressive covering call strikes are going to generate a lot of income :)

The corollary is that I have a hard time identifying any time (now) that I will roll a call much before expiration when ITM. So that Jan 7 1100 strike call above - I would have held that to Jan 7 instead of rolling on Jan 3 and would have kept the credit. I would not have rolled for the big strike gain and minimal credit, thereby leaving a week of income generation on the table.

But this is a learning for me from the trade listed above. Using my new criteria I wouldn't have rolled those 1100s to 1150 on Monday and even if the shares were still say 1200 on that Jan 7 expiration I wouldn't do a max strike roll. I'd roll for $7ish weekly credit and whatever strike improvement is available after that. Or even more weekly credit and less strike improvement. I'm giving up the big win (shares head to 1500) in exchange for the more likely price movement of the big weekly credits and the shares eventually coming back (which took all of 1 day in this situation :D).

This is consistent with my income focus. Its also why I don't / won't do call credit spreads any more. The primary risk we think about - shares head to the moon and I miss out on that doesn't represent a loss of capital risk. And the rest of the time the big credits will comfortably beat whatever gyrations the share price is going through.


The put side is different. I'm using put credit spreads (BPS) and those do have permanent and high % loss of capital risk (as do any credit spreads). I still have a preference for not rolling on Mondays but I'm more aggressive about rolling these early. I want to avoid reaching the midpoint of the spread and would rather roll closer to the 1/4th mark.

The larger strategy here is to be far OTM at open so that most of these trades are easy and regular wins, with preparation ahead of time for the big moves against. When to roll - with a wide spread in the first place I can allow these to go fairly deeply ITM, but then I roll however far to expiration when I reach 1/4th ITM. I will also roll for max strike improvement and might roll earlier.


So - I'll hold calls until nearly expiration. This is new for me and I'll be reporting on how that goes.

I'll roll the put spreads early and often. The bias is to waiting until I hit my break point, but when I get there I roll - no questions asked. Worth noting is that so far this criteria is helping me identify pretty significant low spots / bad times to roll. But that's ok - I'm protecting against the much rarer "and it just keeps on going".
 
According to the TSLA stock technical analysis in the video linked below, green skies are likely to be ahead… Tomorrow will be key to confirm the reversal.

“If TSLA finishes the week around $1100, it will be spiking up big time going into earnings”

I like the sound of that 😀

Where is that "Hope" emote when I need it :)

My put spreads say "please".
 
OK, my IBKR TWS is or doing something wrong, or fudging me over. I bought Feb25 800 puts for 15.48 a piece and they were at close 19.41. But they show up deep red affecting my margin bc somewhere over the weekend it thinks the market price is 11.70?

Now, I do understand that we are getting closer to the 25th of February, but with the SP barely nudging in after- and pre-market, I have a hard time believing this 11.70 is remotely true. I hope.
They calculate the value of the options under their algorithm but not according to the latest market price!
 
3 of 4. FOMO and Greed.

More NOT-ADVICE.


From the first 2 of these posts it looks like the new year is working out ok for me. It is very much not unfortunately. And I can easily point to the specific trade and the bad thinking / personal rule violation I made that has me in deep. Like offset 2021 gains deep, with a good running start at the 2020 education gains as well.

An observation about this for everybody to be clear on - especially anybody reading along and thinking "easy money". Our dominant strategy in these parts is to open defined maximum gain positions with undefined losses (or at least really high % losses). Throw in some leverage of which margin, purchased calls, and spreads are all forms of, and the undefined losses can get really really big, really really fast. Like wipe out 20 months of gains in 1 week big.

This isn't "easy or free money".


On Monday Jan 3 with the big move to 1200 after P&D I closed my 800/1000 put spreads for an 80 or 90% gain. Life was good, a routine trade with an early and desirable close. Wondrous.

Then I repeated a mistake I've made before - one that usually works, but when it hasn't worked out, it REALLY hasn't worked out (both times). I opened new put spreads that same day with the same expiration. And I got aggressive - I figured we weren't coming back to 1100 no way, no how, and while I was at it - I also tightened up my spread width to $150 from my recent $200s. Open 950/1100 put spreads for Jan 7 expiration. A bunch of them (though mostly consistent with my own portfolio management strategy - a bit too aggressive in one account; so I only somewhat lost my mind).

OOPS. I've rolled those once to 950/1100s on Jan 14 for a $1ish credit and then rolled again today when shares were $980ish for a $5 debit to Jan 28. I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've taken a debit on a roll. The credit roll would have been to a 970/1120 kind of position and I figured the $5 debit was a better plan. On the second roll I wanted to stay away from the Jan 21 expiration, I wanted more time for the shares to turn around, and I wanted to be on the other side of earnings. I was also worried about the shares continuing to go down (and still am!) and had the thought that today might be my last good chance at a roll to buy time for a reversal. I figure these things all give me the best chance of the share price getting back over 1100 (and hopefully a lot over :D).

After reviewing my decision making the two rolls were the right call for me for those situations. I don't like having Jan 28 1100 strike expiration instead of Jan 14 (this week) expiration, but I had hit my limit this morning and was creating a defense against the shares continuing down from 970 to 930 or further. Which they still can - I'm far from out of the woods yet. Just because we have, and use, management techniques on positions doesn't mean that they work.

The roll today has bought me time to the other side of earnings, which I continue to expect to be much better than wall street expects, and for the share price to go up significantly as a result. Now I have the time for all of that to play out and don't need to worry about being in an effectively unrollable situation. I do still have way too high of a chance at a max loss though; much too high for a dividend / income objective.

I made this bad trade because of FOMO / Greed. I kind of had the thought at the time, but Greed drowned out that voice.


The rule violation - don't "roll" a position towards the share price within the same expiration week (a roll would be on the same day). "Chasing" after the share price to pick up a few extra $$ is just not worth it (at least for me).

The solution for the rule violation is pretty easy - don't open a replacement position on the same expiration day, the same day that I close a position. It might work and yield a few extra $$ on the same expiration date. Its like double dipping! Unfortunately when the rather common reversal happens, and if its a big one, then a good situation can go radically bad, really fast. Like $120ish ITM on a $150 wide spread.

With an income/dividend point of view, even if this only goes bad 1 in 100, that's too much. New rule - don't do that.


But the other mistake is more subtle. How to recognize when FOMO / Greed has me in its clutches? It rarely does, but I succumb at times like I believe anybody and everybody does. I don't know how to avoid it except to be cognizant of the possibility and realize that when I do this right, I'll make money at any share price, and in low or high IV environments. I don't need to make hay while the sun is shining - at least so far the sun is always shining and I can make hay steadily any time that I want. Just be patient, let a whole single stinking day go by before opening the new position.

Others have different verbiage but the same idea.

The (newish) rule for me above is one effort to stop FOMO/Greed even when I don't recognize it. The "open into strength / close into weakness" guidance is another mechanism.

For some its some %OTM. There are plenty of others attempting to get at this.

Its nice to have rules to stop FOMO/Greed before it happens, but the reality is that there isn't a set of rules that will take care of it all of the time. Its not all that hard to rationalize bending a rule now and then because the setup is just too good to pass up. The only thing I see for this - be self-aware, be conscious about the actual objective / goal, and if I'm making trades designed to handily exceed my target outcome, then there's a really good chance FOMO/Greed has me in its grips.


Oh - and its ok to not have put or call positions open. It really is :)