Semi General Discussion

[nativewolf]

So you’d rather breathe straight diesel exhaust than breathe LA air?

Sure, when new, diesels are better than they used to be, but how clean is that diesel engine in 15 years?

The issues with diesel were often particulate related in older machines. Lead in all fuels. Really diesel angst is much to do about nothing, it is great for instances where you need engines to perform work. Tractor trailers, excavators, tractors etc. They'll have a hard time replicating diesels efficiency at scale in trucking. You have to start somewhere and it's great that once again California is leading the way. You go you crazy Californians.

Our use case is all about local loads and high fuel costs. we'll shift to EVs as soon as we can.

 

[Suns_PSD]

So you’d rather breathe straight diesel exhaust than breathe LA air?

Sure, when new, diesels are better than they used to be, but how clean is that diesel engine in 15 years?

That would be a silly choice because all vehicle exhaust is devoid of O2, so I'd die. But the point remains that the study was highly flawed to obtain a result.

Sadly, economic and personal interests' drive many 'scientific studies' these days and it's not uncommon to discover serious flaws in the methology with even a cursory glance.

Wouldn't a better test be to simply run the tests on adults, while standing at a school bus stop just as children would to try and discover any effects of diesel exhaust on children in real life? Of course, this ignores the fact that the powerplant to produce the electricity is producing the exact same by products but just spewing them out on the bad side of town instead.

BTW, for the government waste pissed away on EV Semis, the government could replace every single older polluting diesel in the country, and save money doing it. Heck, just waiving the FET on all new truck purchases would spur investment by fleets in new cleaner diesels.

The government is ran so effing poorly.

 

[Nack]

So you’d rather breathe straight diesel exhaust than breathe LA air?

Sure, when new, diesels are better than they used to be, but how clean is that diesel engine in 15 years?

FWIW California ARB shared that the air coming out of the tailpipe was cleaner than the air going into the engine (specifically related to PM2.5, and NOx). With Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF) and Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) installed on all diesel engines after 2010 (in the US) specifically designed to reduce the output of these it makes sense.

Is the diesel engine emission free? No. Is the diesel engine emissions much lower than most people realize and in extreme cases cleaner than the air its breathing in (LA basin), yes.

BTW, for the government waste pissed away on EV Semis, the government could replace every single older polluting diesel in the country, and save money doing it. Heck, just waiving the FET on all new truck purchases would spur investment by fleets in new cleaner diesels.

If it helps you sleep better at night the Engine Manufacturers Association (EMA) that represents heavy duty engine manufacturers has been arguing this. For the Greenhouse Gas Phase 3 proposed regulation this was included in the industry feedback as reducing the emissions of new vehicles is good, but getting the very heavy polluters off the road is a significant gain overall as the “dirty trucks” pre-2010 have about 90% more NOx emissions. A cash for clunkers scheme would be incredibly beneficial to improve air quality rapidly and also would help manufacturers sell higher volumes of cleaner trucks which will make them more cost effective.

Unfortunately the media rarely covers the proposals and efforts made by the manufacturers, but they aren’t as evil as they are made out to be.


Information source: I worked in HD diesel engine compliance, and helped provide feedback for GHG ph3 proposed rule making.

 

[VIKING26]

FWIW California ARB shared that the air coming out of the tailpipe was cleaner than the air going into the engine (specifically related to PM2.5, and NOx). With Diesel Particulate Filters (DPF) and Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) installed on all diesel engines after 2010 (in the US) specifically designed to reduce the output of these it makes sense.

Do you have a link to that study?

A quick search only yielded things like:
“ARB estimates that diesel PM contributes to approximately 1,400 (95% confidence interval: 1,100-1,800) premature deaths from cardiovascular disease annually in California.3”

 

[Nack]

I found this searching quickly: Can diesel engines CLEAN urban air?

I will see if I can find the other study. It was in a presentation highlighting why CARB pushes hard and the positive impacts. I have hundreds of ARB presentations and papers so it might be a needle in a haystack mission.

The issue is when they say “diesel engine…” is are they referring to the diesels available now or taking a fleet average currently on the road or using some ancient study. Many/most times they use research from the 60s/70s as it makes the comparison look really good although its not realistic.

The issue is the newer engines are much much cleaner (and will get cleaner again in 2027 nationally) but the number of new vehicles produced cannot displace the “bad” ones since there is a huge gap between them. Without incentive to remove the old engines even EVs will not make a huge dent as it will be a very very small portion of whats on the road.

Burn the candle from both ends so to say, remove the biggest polluters and provide cleaner and cleaner options. Just removing the dirtiest engines has significantly bigger impact.

 

[bruce4000]

I live near a port with a lot of trucks coming in and out and I see plenty puffing out lots of black smoke as they accelerate (which they do slowly and congest traffic)

 

[UkNorthampton]

I live near a port with a lot of trucks coming in and out and I see plenty puffing out lots of black smoke as they accelerate (which they do slowly and congest traffic)

Whenever I go walking near a road, the stink is awful. Nearly new cars smell when they go past, petrol or diesel.

If a diesel can clean Los Angeles air, people shouldn't be living in it. How far beyond World Health Organisation guidelines is the air quality? When I once looked at LA air quality maps, near the port was the worst - due to bunker fuel and presumably Heavy Goods Vehicles.

 

[Nack]

So you’d rather breathe straight diesel exhaust than breathe LA air?

Sure, when new, diesels are better than they used to be, but how clean is that diesel engine in 15 years?

I saw this and realized I forgot to answer on something. For what its worth Heavy Duty diesel engines are pulled from the field after 3 years and tested to make sure they still meet emissions. The requirement (currently) is the emission must be within spec to 435,000 miles. Yeah, trucks can rack up a lot of miles quickly but after these mileages they generally go to a second life that's a lot less demanding.

I can't recall off the top of my head what the 2027 emission regulation is nationally, but the much tighter emissions (90% reduction from current) must remain within spec until 600,000 miles.

Main point, the diesels need to meet emissions though a majority of their life, and they are pulled from the field and tested to make sure they are compliant (MST testing).

Whenever I go walking near a road, the stink is awful. Nearly new cars smell when they go past, petrol or diesel.

If a diesel can clean Los Angeles air, people shouldn't be living in it. How far beyond World Health Organisation guidelines is the air quality? When I once looked at LA air quality maps, near the port was the worst - due to bunker fuel and presumably Heavy Goods Vehicles.

The air in Los Angeles is disgusting. I hate going there for that reason! As disgusting as it is now, it used to be considerably worse if you can believe it.

You are correct that the Ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach are the highest concentration of pollution. The Port itself has tighter emission regulations than the rest of California and it is targeted for getting more EVs because of this. In good news, the Port duty (drayage) does not require long distances of travel so its ideal for EV trucks!

 

[Suns_PSD]

What's funny is that 90% reduction in NoX, is just the current pollution that diesels produce for the first 300 seconds they are started when cold as that's before the emissions equipment is up to temp and can fully function. Afte that they are essentially 100% clean.

In 2027 they will have 1200 watt heaters in the exhaust system up before starting up so that the 300 seconds of pollution upon start up is gone.

 

[ThomasD]

Will the Government regulate emissions from Trucks that come across the Mexican Border? Some vehicles that are sold to certain Government agencies and ones that end up Overseas are emission exempt. Also according to Oregon Manufactures must sell a certain percentage of Electric Heavy Duty and Medium Duty Trucks starting in 2025 and the number goes up every year.. There is no Manufacture that is making Electric Trucks like these. How many Hours can you run an electric Plow Truck? Vehicle https://www.oregon.gov/deq/aq/Documents/cfpMHDtruckRulesFAQ.pdf

 

[Suns_PSD]

There is no functioning EV product that can plow, like not even close. Cold temps pushing snow for hours straight. That probably won't happen in my lifetime and I'm only in my 50s!

Regarding the 26K GVW trucks, Cummins is releasing a gas-powered version of their 6.7 diesel that is supposed to be amazing and operates a lot like a diesel. Uses the diesel short block, different head with spark plugs obviously. Gets rid of emissions. Word is that it even sounds like a diesel.

Similar hp to the diesel, but considerably less torque. But it's plenty either way.

Should be amazing.

 

[Nack]

Will the Government regulate emissions from Trucks that come across the Mexican Border? Some vehicles that are sold to certain Government agencies and ones that end up Overseas are emission exempt. Also according to Oregon Manufactures must sell a certain percentage of Electric Heavy Duty and Medium Duty Trucks starting in 2025 and the number goes up every year.. There is no Manufacture that is making Electric Trucks like these. How many Hours can you run an electric Plow Truck? Vehicle https://www.oregon.gov/deq/aq/Documents/cfpMHDtruckRulesFAQ.pdf
View attachment 1016261
View attachment 1016252
View attachment 1016253
View attachment 1016256

It depends on where the trucks from Mex are operating I guess. Im not sure how they handle that but I also don’t think its a giant concern.

They won’t be able to idle in many states, they would not be able to deliver to a major port, etc.

Oregon is starting the ACT (Adv Clean Trucks) ruling in 2025, CA and others in 2024. I don’t think they got the waiver yet so its not effective yet in 24, but I expect EPA to grant it. This will also allow the other states who signed on to adopt the legislation.

The numbers ramp up over time, its mostly targeting local delivery and drayage first, then expanding more to regional haul, etc. it would not require 100% of trucks sold to be electric so corner cases and long haul will probably not need to transition legally. They can always scale back the targets if its not being met due to infrastructure issues etc.

The manufacturers can’t be blamed because they all are selling trucks now so the issue is a demand side one.

I assume you will see a lot more configurations and better vehicles (more range, faster charging, etc.) for sale in the nearer future as OEMs expand options to meet the regulations.

 

[Rocky_H]

There is no functioning EV product that can plow, like not even close. Cold temps pushing snow for hours straight. That probably won't happen in my lifetime and I'm only in my 50s!

...except for where it already is being done. Is this like that "Man shakes fist at cloud" thing?

The world's first semi electric truck with 1,000 kWh capacity is plowing snow in Norway like a boss

For the first time, Norway has used a semi electric truck with 1,000 kWh battery capacity to clear heavy snow on challenging mountain passes.

electrek.co

"In Sandefjord, electric plow trucks are already a regular sight, as they’re working well."

 

[ThomasD]

I like that Semi. Only 60 miles of range though. What is the time it takes to charge and get it back out on the Road? They should try that Semi here in the States. What kind of a range hit would the Cybertruck take with a Plow on it?

 

[UkNorthampton]

...except for where it already is being done. Is this like that "Man shakes fist at cloud" thing?

The world's first semi electric truck with 1,000 kWh capacity is plowing snow in Norway like a boss

For the first time, Norway has used a semi electric truck with 1,000 kWh battery capacity to clear heavy snow on challenging mountain passes.

electrek.co

"In Sandefjord, electric plow trucks are already a regular sight, as they’re working well."

Despite a long day battling light to heavy snow, gusty winds, and below-freezing temps, the truck’s battery only dipped from 90% to 28%. That’s after almost nine hours on the road, using up 182 KWh per 100 km.

 

[aubreymcfato]

I don't understand why Tesla is not ramping up the Semis. Even for internal use. Apparently we are not even at 100 after, how much, one year?

 

[nativewolf]

I would just put out a cautionary note on the diesel emissions controls. The current systems SUCK. DEF SUCKS. DPF SUCKS. I'm about as green a person as there is, traded a f350 for a lightning, our business is sustainable forestry but when it comes to heavy equipment the first thing we look for is NO emissions. The second thing is how to remove the emissions controls. We lost a month of machine time due to DEF on a skid steer, that makes it a money losing machine, we lost 2 weeks on a primary harvester which could have shut us down and cost our farm. The systems are grossly expensive, they require huge upkeep, they cause a tremendous amount of service that generates it's own emissions issues.

The skid steer had 10 service visits by heavy equipment service trucks, they flushed def, moved def, replaced pumps, replaced computers, etc etc etc etc. 1200 miles of driving to get 200 hours of uptime on a skid steer. Then all the lost fluids, then all the shipping costs, then all the labor and time. The total bill would have reached 17,000 if not under warranty. That's just to keep a rarely used system going. The control systems don't work in many use cases (good luck if that DEF system didn't run for 4 months).

Never again. I will gut the emissions off of any diesel heavy equipment we buy. Put an emulator on there telling the computers that the system is all ok and keep working.

I don't see how any small owner can reasonably meet the CA requirements. It seems that the rules are designed to crush all small owner/operators and drive business back to the large consolidated equipment dealers. Removing an engine at 465k miles just to check it? Seriously? No wonder EM moved to TX. I mean require a certain percent of the fleets be EV but the diesel rules sound insane.

 

[Suns_PSD]

I would just put out a cautionary note on the diesel emissions controls. The current systems SUCK. DEF SUCKS. DPF SUCKS. I'm about as green a person as there is, traded a f350 for a lightning, our business is sustainable forestry but when it comes to heavy equipment the first thing we look for is NO emissions. The second thing is how to remove the emissions controls. We lost a month of machine time due to DEF on a skid steer, that makes it a money losing machine, we lost 2 weeks on a primary harvester which could have shut us down and cost our farm. The systems are grossly expensive, they require huge upkeep, they cause a tremendous amount of service that generates it's own emissions issues.

The skid steer had 10 service visits by heavy equipment service trucks, they flushed def, moved def, replaced pumps, replaced computers, etc etc etc etc. 1200 miles of driving to get 200 hours of uptime on a skid steer. Then all the lost fluids, then all the shipping costs, then all the labor and time. The total bill would have reached 17,000 if not under warranty. That's just to keep a rarely used system going. The control systems don't work in many use cases (good luck if that DEF system didn't run for 4 months).

Never again. I will gut the emissions off of any diesel heavy equipment we buy. Put an emulator on there telling the computers that the system is all ok and keep working.

I don't see how any small owner can reasonably meet the CA requirements. It seems that the rules are designed to crush all small owner/operators and drive business back to the large consolidated equipment dealers. Removing an engine at 465k miles just to check it? Seriously? No wonder EM moved to TX. I mean require a certain percent of the fleets be EV but the diesel rules sound insane.

No doubt that some still experience serious issues, but by and large modern diesel emissions are very reliable on newer products.

For example, I've owned about 10 emissions trucks now, 2015 to 2022, and only 1 has had serious emissions issues after years of service. That's millions of miles of service all put together.

 

[Suns_PSD]

I don't understand why Tesla is not ramping up the Semis. Even for internal use. Apparently we are not even at 100 after, how much, one year?

Tesla just bought a fleet of new diesel semis to ship their own cars. I do believe that should tell you a lot. But if you missed it: poor range, poor charging infrastructure, loss of payload, high aquisition costs, etc.

 

[DarkandStormy]

I don't understand why Tesla is not ramping up the Semis. Even for internal use. Apparently we are not even at 100 after, how much, one year?

The battery tech isn't there to support it.

Also:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1755911220517900400