Service and communication (out of main)

[bhtooefr]

Neroden told us many times that he's very, very risk-averse. Itrust is opinions, but my personal and possibly uninformed take is that he overreacted.

Honestly, I could see looking for an exit - the service issues could be bad, but likely won't kill the company in the short term, and therefore waiting for a high to sell could make sense. (Alternately, if you're playing the options game, start selling calls against your position, instead of puts against your cash?)

But just straight-up selling now, yeah, that feels like an overreaction.

 

[adiggs]

Personally, I consider anybody's personal investment reaction to the set of circumstances and information as they know it, to be exactly the correct reaction for them.

I try not to generalize from individuals personal investment reaction to try and draw general conclusions about rightness of those investment decisions.

 

[MC3OZ]

So using common parts is going to increase the amount of service required? That makes little sense. Parts that have had a time to cook by being already out in the field should have a much lower rate of service required because improvements have already been made to make them more reliable. More attention to QA should also reduce the amount of service required. Or did you mean 50% less service required? I'd agree with that.

Sorry I wasn't very clear, yes 50% less maintenance for Model Y on a standalone basis..

What i was saying is the total maintenance load probably only increases by 50% with the introduction of the Model Y, considering that parts improvements should help lower the rate of Model 3 service...

Also that building new Service Centres is expensive and will not be needed to the same extent for Model Y as they can absorb some of the load in other areas:-

• improve the app and add more functionality - probably the best ROI
• beef up call centre in staffing and capacity - probably the biggest impact on customer satisfaction.
• add more mobile service - add mobile service training/tools for more jobs.

So spending 50% extra on service with the introduction of the Model Y, goes a long way, if the money is spent wisely.

 

[T@oo]

Hate to tell bad news but this is unfortunate.

NextMove cancels 85 of 100 Model 3 orders for Germany: Tesla: Elektroauto-Vermieter beklagt "Servicehölle" - ecomento.de

Lots of problems with delivery, bad service, no parts. Having written three emails with no answers to Tesla myself (minor things / questions), I can relate. The Tesla app gives me 2 month lead time for a service appointment. That's ridiculous of course.

 

[Sean Wagner]

Hate to tell bad news but this is unfortunate.

NextMove cancels 85 of 100 Model 3 orders for Germany: Tesla: Elektroauto-Vermieter beklagt "Servicehölle" - ecomento.de

Lots of problems with delivery, bad service, no parts. Having written three emails with no answers to Tesla myself (minor things / questions), I can relate. The Tesla app gives me 2 month lead time for a service appointment. That's ridiculous of course.

And this is why @neroden said service was crucial to Tesla's survival. News like this gets bandied about everywhere in Germany, and rightly so - even if the problem is better managed it's very hard and takes a long time to undo the reputational damage because the counterfactuals must slowly accumulate. Many people who buy a 3 need to be able to rely on it as their daily driver.


Meanwhile over the pond: " [...] He advised me to make an appointment with the service center. With calling not being an option anymore and the Tesla-app not functioning for making appointments (!?), i manually drove there and had them schedule me ASAP, which was 2.5 weeks later. [...] "

Source: Welp. 1 month in with model 3: Experience with tesla taking a bad turn. : teslamotors

This just won't fly and threatens the company's future.

 

[T@oo]

Hate to tell bad news but this is unfortunate.

NextMove cancels 85 of 100 Model 3 orders for Germany: Tesla: Elektroauto-Vermieter beklagt "Servicehölle" - ecomento.de

Lots of problems with delivery, bad service, no parts. Having written three emails with no answers to Tesla myself (minor things / questions), I can relate. The Tesla app gives me 2 month lead time for a service appointment. That's ridiculous of course.

Haven't watched NextMoves "press conference" yet, but it seems Tesla has canceled the order not NextMove. Apparently NextMove did an ultimatum that Tesla wasn't able to comply to so they had to cancel.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

 

[lascavarian]

This just won't fly and threatens the company's future.

Hardly, this is what it is like rolling out a highly desirable product on a global scale. I wish it were otherwise but it is the way it is. Service is a little overwhelmed (exhausted) but it will adjust and improve dramatically over time.

Service never gets it right initially but adjusts over time. That is reality and yep there will be some easy pickings for those hunting clicks but it is only a passing story. Down the road the story will be the amazing improvements.

Really best thing is to have a high reliability product in the first place and EVs are great that way.

 

[heltok]

Hate to tell bad news but this is unfortunate.

NextMove cancels 85 of 100 Model 3 orders for Germany: Tesla: Elektroauto-Vermieter beklagt "Servicehölle" - ecomento.de

Lots of problems with delivery, bad service, no parts. Having written three emails with no answers to Tesla myself (minor things / questions), I can relate. The Tesla app gives me 2 month lead time for a service appointment. That's ridiculous of course.

That’s unfortunate. I was trying to rent a Model 3 from them, but they were out of stock. Ended up getting a Model X instead, really great renting and driving experience. So good that I put an order down today! =)

 

[schonelucht]

Echoing, the experience of EC-Rent, the German EV-rental company NextMove dropped a video explaining their issues with Tesla. Basically : the car is great, the company sucks royally. This is a larger fleet player (50 S/X in the current fleet, many more ordered over the years since rental companies rotate cars, 15 Model 3's in the fleet and an order of over 100 Model 3's that had to be cancelled. It's astonishing how bad pre-sales is.

 

[sweter]

Ironically, I really want this to hurt Tesla bad. For their own good.

 

[Sean Wagner]

Hardly, this is what it is like rolling out a highly desirable product on a global scale. I wish it were otherwise but it is the way it is. Service is a little overwhelmed (exhausted) but it will adjust and improve dramatically over time.

Service never gets it right initially but adjusts over time. That is reality and yep there will be some easy pickings for those hunting clicks but it is only a passing story. Down the road the story will be the amazing improvements.

Really best thing is to have a high reliability product in the first place and EVs are great that way.

NextMove have a detailed and lucid critique of their service interactions with Tesla, and they say pre- and post-sales processes are non-existant.

Scheduling even via app doesn't work in places.

Service is essential, not simply a nice thing to have.

 

[Skipdd]

Haven't watched NextMoves "press conference" yet, but it seems Tesla has canceled the order not NextMove. Apparently NextMove did an ultimatum that Tesla wasn't able to comply to so they had to cancel.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Elektrek has picked it up now as well, with link to the video.

 

[Matias]

FYI he's sold his shares and thinks the service issues are going to kill the company.

I have to pay respect to him. He said years that if Tesla doesn’t fix the service he will sell.

 

[Matias]

Yeah he got out at a low point.

You know TSLA future values?

 

[RandomJohnny]

Hardly, this is what it is like rolling out a highly desirable product on a global scale. I wish it were otherwise but it is the way it is. Service is a little overwhelmed (exhausted) but it will adjust and improve dramatically over time.

Service never gets it right initially but adjusts over time. That is reality and yep there will be some easy pickings for those hunting clicks but it is only a passing story. Down the road the story will be the amazing improvements.

Really best thing is to have a high reliability product in the first place and EVs are great that way.

I think (and hope) this is the most rational analysis for service issues. I was at my service center (4 hour round trip drive) to get my bubbled dashboard replaced (Model 3 AWD, 8k miles). Told it was not covered under warranty due to environmental factors (the sun), never ordered part, etc, etc. Totally absurd reasoning and the fact that I had to convince the manager of this is even more absurd. You can find more detail about the experience here:

Bubble like issue on dashboard


Anyway, overall, not a good experience and lost a lot of trust. I thought about neroden and all these ill service posts and realizing that I am now one of the victims. I felt nauseous as an investor (have i been drinking the kool aid all along?). As an owner I felt kinda betrayed. I didn't mind that my car was built during the initial ramp time Aug/Oct 18 and expected there to be some issues here and there but I trusted that Tesla would address these issues. I know it is a lot of work to replace that dash but to say it isn't covered by warranty because of the sun is like saying "screw you".

But those are emotions. They are real and valid but maybe not the best for analyzing the future of the company. If you look at the bubbled dash thread (and other various threads related to the issue after a google search) you will see that the majority of times this is getting taking care of no questions asked (as it should be).


Patience. A lot of it. I think lascavarian has it right---everything points to this company eventually figuring this stuff out in a revolutionary way.

 

[Intl Professor]

Had our first service yesterday at the Rocklin/Sacramento service center in Rocklin. Appointment online for 11:30 done about 3 days earlier to deal with computer upgrade since we paid cash for real deal with purchase 11 months ago and inability to connect with wifi network at home for some strange reason because it had no history of trouble earlier. Also I eventually asked for download of latest OS since I stupidly incurred $560 of AT&T celluler overcharges by the brilliant idea of making my cell phone a hotspot and ignoring phone warnings of $20 charge for 300 mb of each of 29 warnings. Earlier an AT&T tech had determined signal access from the car.

We were advised by email they would try to accommodate us if we arrived early, which we did by an hour. Some tech people passing by cofirmed a line for service but that we could park elsewhere at front of store. No one advised us there was a check in for service just around the corner of the building. Anxious for a pee break, we got in line at the one-holer toilet adjacent to the sales room, and within earshot of a lady in an office at work of her desk. Door to toilet was locked. Like sheep we patiently waited and over time several others came to stand in line as long as they could. Meanwhile several employees passed us by and we complained to them but could not get their attention for about ten minutes. Meanwhile others in line took off, and some came back. Finally we got some passerby to knock on the door and got no response. This went on for awhile and finally the lady in the office offered to help and went for a key. No key found. She finally got a tech to pick the lock. I don't remember if one of my offers to go out the front door to pee on the building would be necessary in order to get someone's attention to our plight. Those in line laughed. More later, but I have to pee and then take wife to fast and furious, the movie.

Edit: To the service and five hours later today. Informed no parts for computer upgrade until end of year or Dec, which I expected. Tech said it was likely the router and gave me a poop sheet which I can post if needed which strongly advised against using WEB security (we have WPA). "All we can do is see if the car respects our Wifi. If it does, it's your rounter's problem." Later confirmed their Wifi works on car and downloaded software to latest. At home able to access the system as before. It was probably a glitch in the software and seems ok now.

Otherwise fine except for bathroom fiasco and no one willing to help for damn near half an hour. Next time I'm going to snag the receptionist and try the threat of peeing at the door. Unfortunately, as an old guy with legs that don't work right I'm not as imposing as the Rock since my prime 30 years ago. Also my personal johnson hardly fits out the door in my pants, another sign of old age is a virtually ingrown instrument. No self-abuse jokes guys.

 

[dethman]

NextMove have a detailed and lucid critique of their service interactions with Tesla, and they say pre- and post-sales processes are non-existant.

Scheduling even via app doesn't work in places.

Service is essential, not simply a nice thing to have.

I love it. Tesla in it's current customer service-less form needs to die a quick painful death.

 

[pz1975]

Had our first service yesterday at the Rocklin/Sacramento service center in Rocklin. Appointment online for 11:30 done about 3 days earlier to deal with computer upgrade since we paid cash for real deal with purchase 11 months ago and inability to connect with wifi network at home for some strange reason because it had no history of trouble earlier. Also I eventually asked for download of latest OS since I stupidly incurred $560 of AT&T celluler overcharges by the brilliant idea of making my cell phone a hotspot and ignoring phone warnings of $20 charge for 300 mb of each of 29 warnings. Earlier an AT&T tech had determined signal access from the car.

We were advised by email they would try to accommodate us if we arrived early, which we did by an hour. Some tech people passing by cofirmed a line for service but that we could park elsewhere at front of store. No one advised us there was a check in for service just around the corner of the building. Anxious for a pee break, we got in line at the one-holer toilet adjacent to the sales room, and within earshot of a lady in an office at work of her desk. Door to toilet was locked. Like sheep we patiently waited and over time several others came to stand in line as long as they could. Meanwhile several employees passed us by and we complained to them but could not get their attention for about ten minutes. Meanwhile others in line took off, and some came back. Finally we got some passerby to knock on the door and got no response. This went on for awhile and finally the lady in the office offered to help and went for a key. No key found. She finally got a tech to pick the lock. I don't remember if one of my offers to go out the front door to pee on the building would be necessary in order to get someone's attention to our plight. Those in line laughed. More later, but I have to pee and then take wife to fast and furious, the movie.

I imagine after waiting that long that your pee matched the title of the movie.

 

[jananglin]

Tesla SC's are overwhelmed. When we bought MX in 2017 a/c was not sufficient to cool cabin of car; it would blow cool air then ambient air. A few months and a few SC later I was asked to record the time the a/c air temp changed then provide tech with that info. The correct fix was performed and now we can use the car to cool down kegs of Gunniess to the proper UK drinking temp. The most difficult job for the SC is that they are trying to satisfy an ever growing number of customers who have basically purchased a dynamic asset. Combine factors like: build quality (always improving), software updates (it's multiple specific versions with multiple lines of code) and production amounts that are now approaching statistical significance and BINGO, you are now slammed into what Deming was talking about and what the little plant, where I worked, experienced. At our plant we only wanted the packaging film to shape to a nice bag into which we put our product. The bag was then put into a box and the box was shipped out the door. But often our packaging machinery would not be able to make a nice bag with this plastic film. We would call the film manufacturer and their service staff would be up at our plant within five or six hours. They were very helpful and the problem would often be fixed. But now our plant production was down six or seven hours and all of the film from the five or six machines was destroyed-it was too complex a structure to be recycled, the supplier had to lose at least 12 hours for two or three of their engineers. And our little plant, wellllllllll, we could not fill the customer's order so at best they were pissed although sometimes we lost a good customer. Super service is great and you want that type of service when things go wrong. But, you don't want things to go wrong! You want the product to do what it was intended to do. Anything else is a waste of time and someone's money.

Dig...Thirteen years ago a few pretty sharp engineers decided to launch, aaaaagain, yet another, electrical car. Musk came along with the unusual combination of brains, money, cojones and motivation-this is irrespective of order. With these engineers another intruding company was launched against the now century old entwined bodies of oil and combustion engines-in order to grasp the depth of this relationship imagine, as analogy, a one hundred year embrace associated with explosions inside cavities and plenty of lubrication. The two parties of oil and internal combustion are going to everything they can to make sure the intruder does come between them. Any type of problem Tesla has: Quality, Production, Service, Financial, Sales, Supply...will be used as excuse to deride a company that has been in business 13 years while these manufacturers only began fixing their same problems in the 70's when Deming talked of planned obsolescence and when the lawn mower, sewing machine and motorcycle manufacturers of Toyota, Honda and Datsun (Nissan) began to enter the automobile market.

Tesla is the intruder in the oil/auto relationship, but Tesla is dynamically improving.

 

[deffu]

weather this can be classified as service or logistics issue is not the point. what customers see is it takes couple or more months to fix their cars after accident, which is becoming a norm in bay area and a lot of other places as far as I know. This is way worse than other brands/dealers.

On the other hand, I see this is a resource issue rather than tsla's unwillingness to address this problem. Model s owners told me back in 2015 beofore the model 3 era, they were treated like kings/queens at tesla service center, easy appointment, timely followup, great service, each trip to service center was like patronizing a 5 start hotel, way better than BMW/Mercedes . these have all gone which I believe its due to tesla dosnnt have the capital/capability to timely service the needs of the fleet of its current size. its tsla's strategy to put growth first. growth triumphs everything, weather its profit or service, you name it. if tsla to provide good service for now, its financial would further tank and its growth would halt.

this is a business decision/tradoff tesla/musk made. though the customers would not favor that. it's going to go away once tesla stablizes and is able to generate enough revenue/profits to expand service capability. it's growing pain. thatI hope tesla can endure.

I’d find it hard to blame service for that unless they ordered the wrong parts or damaged the parts themselves. Otherwise, it’s out of their hands and it was a logistics/supply chain issue.

Let’s be realistic, wrong or damaged replacement parts happens all the time at other OEMs and companies in general. Clearly somebody made a mistake and they should have to answer for it. Repeated mistakes and they should be fired.