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Service says $22k for new battery on 2012 Model S

rns-e

Member
May 5, 2013
478
145
Denmark
Hear a lot of comparison between Tesla and ICE car high repair cost. Can speak to this since I do lots of DIY ICE car repairs (All DIY for last 20 years include higher mile Euro premiums)

The comparison quite different with Tesla because high ICE repairs costs are typically mostly labor cost and supported by plenty of DIYers with sweat equity.
Exactly - many high-end ICE may be financially a write off only due to high labor cost associated with a needed repair and that provides opportunity for DIY's who have the time to put in the work. Tesla's may be financially a write off due to very high part costs, not easily countered by a DIY person.
 
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Droschke

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
2,446
4,328
Future
Interesting that this is 1014116-00-B and it is identified as a “90” when the original 1014116-00-A was identified as an “85” pack. I didn’t recognize the part number at first but this would be the 350V pack, basically a 100 with only 14 modules instead of 16.
Should be right around 87.5 kWh when new.

May be the A revision is for 85's and B is for P85?
 

howardc64

Member
Oct 19, 2013
172
73
Seattle
Here is a recent video from Gruber founder outlining why Tesla can't get to low cost repairs. Basically stuck on large module (expensive asset) replacements methodology at SC.


Also interesting on the difficulty for them to scale by franchising. The skilled labor required isn't traditional mechanic. Its electronics + software tech.

Modern cars with its many computers makes repair difficult without diagnostic tools to communicate with these computers. The tools have to probe deep enough to successfully do component level repair (for example,, modern transmission control modules) A system like the battery pack have multiple computers within. Tesla would need to enable 3rd party tool vendors (For example Autel, target customer is small repair shops + DIYs) to build these type of tools priced accordingly to their customer base. So far, we've only seen Tesla wanting to do everything in house which is likely unscalable.

While the post warranty car owners are stuck with expensive expensive module asset repair costs, Tesla itself has the cost burden while under warranty. So far, Tesla HQ's mantra seems to be "last a million miles" which doesn't seem realistic and having to react to the field to create lower cost solutions. Generally unwilling to scale by giving up some centralized control.
 
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rns-e

Member
May 5, 2013
478
145
Denmark
Interesting that this is 1014116-00-B and it is identified as a “90” when the original 1014116-00-A was identified as an “85” pack. I didn’t recognize the part number at first but this would be the 350V pack, basically a 100 with only 14 modules instead of 16.
Should be right around 87.5 kWh when new.
My revision A battery is bang on 85.0 kWh according Scan My Tesla with 423 km typical range. Would also like to know the difference between revision A and B.
 

TwistedGray

Model S VIN: 00070
Mar 12, 2021
181
178
Monterey Bay, CA

P85 here with a "B" battery. I thought the letter designation was for remanufactured vs new battery, B being new.
 

aerodyne

Active Member
Nov 19, 2018
2,186
1,628
Los Angeles
Interesting, but I have questions...

How does one just remove two modules?

I would think that would change the weight distribution, although if you have air, that would not matter.

If you have a P85, how do you get the power with only 350 volts?

After the swap, what does the MCU avatar say?
 

Droschke

Active Member
Mar 8, 2015
2,446
4,328
Future
My revision A battery is bang on 85.0 kWh according Scan My Tesla with 423 km typical range. Would also like to know the difference between revision A and B.

P85 here with a "B" battery. I thought the letter designation was for remanufactured vs new battery, B being new.

Interesting, but I have questions...

How does one just remove two modules?

I would think that would change the weight distribution, although if you have air, that would not matter.

If you have a P85, how do you get the power with only 350 volts?

After the swap, what does the MCU avatar say?

In the case of 1014116, the pack is a new configuration of 100kWh pack, as others have mentioned, with two modules removed, making it ~85kWh, 350VDC with the 90kWh chemistry (instead of the old 85kWh). I would say all 1014116 packs (A or B) are new at this time. The B just being the newer revision.

I believe the 1014116 pack being the replacement for the old 85kWh packs was reported first in Jan. 2020 with lots of good discussion in the thread below:

 

ucmndd

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2016
6,384
11,893
California
Interesting, but I have questions...

How does one just remove two modules?

I would think that would change the weight distribution, although if you have air, that would not matter.

Tesla has sold 14 module batteries continuously since the car was introduced.

The modules weigh about 55 pounds each, so the “weight distribution” problem we’re talking about here is equivalent to carrying around ~65% of an average sized US woman.
 
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NJP3

Member
Nov 5, 2019
15
12
Jersey city, NJ
Makes me wonder what a 2019 Model 3 Performance battery will cost to replace when it comes time, and in how long I should expect to have to do that.. anyone know?
 

howardc64

Member
Oct 19, 2013
172
73
Seattle
Makes me wonder what a 2019 Model 3 Performance battery will cost to replace when it comes time, and in how long I should expect to have to do that.. anyone know?

Perhaps a calculated extrapolation would be based on capacity and cell count? M3 Perf's ~80kWhr battery is similar capacity to MS/X's but with a lower cell count with the larger 2170 cells instead of 18650s for S/X. So perhaps a little cheaper than the S/X pack? Say ~$15k in today's $s? since removal+install+transport remains similar. Further reduction would likely depend on Tesla enabling in-field repairs which seems unlikely IMHO.

This actually bring up another worrisome issue for S/X owners : The obsolescence of Tesla's 18650 production. Will they redesign current gen S/X packs with 2170 cells? Keep a manufacturing line running for 18650s? Run rebuild operation? (most likely) If Tesla prefers looking forward, then it'd be wise to outsource rebuild operations.
 
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MorrisonHiker

S 100D 2021.4.15
Mar 8, 2015
9,563
8,741
Colorado
Perhaps a calculated extrapolation would be based on capacity and cell count? M3 Perf's ~80kWhr battery is similar capacity to MS/X's but with a lower cell count with the larger 2170 cells instead of 18650s for S/X. So perhaps a little cheaper than the S/X pack? Say ~$15k? since removal+install+transport remains similar. Further reduction would likely depend on Tesla enabling in-field repairs which seems unlikely IMHO.

This actually bring up another worrisome issue for S/X owners : The obsolescence of Tesla's 18650 production. Will they redesign current gen S/X packs with 2170 cells? Keep a manufacturing line running for 18650s? Run rebuild operation? (most likely) If Tesla prefers looking forward, then it'd be wise to outsource rebuild operations.
The refreshed 2021 LR and Plaid S & X both use 18650 cells in a redesigned pack with an updated chemistry. These vehicles will use 18650 cells for years to come, according to Elon.
 

No2DinosaurFuel

Active Member
Apr 16, 2015
1,383
712
San Diego, California
Perhaps a calculated extrapolation would be based on capacity and cell count? M3 Perf's ~80kWhr battery is similar capacity to MS/X's but with a lower cell count with the larger 2170 cells instead of 18650s for S/X. So perhaps a little cheaper than the S/X pack? Say ~$15k? since removal+install+transport remains similar. Further reduction would likely depend on Tesla enabling in-field repairs which seems unlikely IMHO.

This actually bring up another worrisome issue for S/X owners : The obsolescence of Tesla's 18650 production. Will they redesign current gen S/X packs with 2170 cells? Keep a manufacturing line running for 18650s? Run rebuild operation? (most likely) If Tesla prefers looking forward, then it'd be wise to outsource rebuild operations.
IMO, tesla should redesign the s/x pack in 21700, but even that I would say skip and just go straight to 46800 cells they are planning to use for their semi. Again bigger so less cells to go wrong. The 21700 would be feasible but maybe with a slight thickness because the 21700 is 70mm long and the 18650 is 65mm long. So you will have to grow 5mm. Or make certain thing thinner to fit. The 46800 for s/x might be a long shot (1.5cm extra) unless they flip it on its side and do something fancy, but anything fancy will cost more money which I think tesla is avoiding and correctly so. They can make case thinner or remove some stuff, but I think that would compromise the safety of the pack.
 
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howardc64

Member
Oct 19, 2013
172
73
Seattle
The refreshed 2021 LR and Plaid S & X both use 18650 cells in a redesigned pack with an updated chemistry. These vehicles will use 18650 cells for years to come, according to Elon.

Thanks, good to know what the intention is :) I guess obsolescence forces may reveal in various forms. For example, continued old pack component manufacturing + assembly. (chassis, electronics etc) Curious if new chemistry have software thermal/charge/discharge curve management differences. Anyway, probably more detail engineering stuff with little outside visibility.
 

brkaus

Well-Known Member
Jul 8, 2014
7,717
6,250
Austin, TX
IMO, tesla should redesign the s/x pack in 21700, but even that I would say skip and just go straight to 46800 cells they are planning to use for their semi. Again bigger so less cells to go wrong. The 21700 would be feasible but maybe with a slight thickness because the 21700 is 700mm long and the 18650 is 650mm long. So you will have to grow 50mm or 5cm. Or make certain thing thinner to fit.. The 46800 for s/x might be a long shot unless they flip it on its side and do something fancy, but anything fancy will cost more money which I think tesla is avoiding and correctly so.

I think you mean 70mm vs 65mm?
 
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No2DinosaurFuel

Active Member
Apr 16, 2015
1,383
712
San Diego, California
Thanks, good to know what the intention is :) I guess obsolescence forces may reveal in various forms. For example, continued old pack component manufacturing + assembly. (chassis, electronics etc) Curious if new chemistry have software thermal/charge/discharge curve management differences. Anyway, probably more detail engineering stuff with little outside visibility.
I would always take what musk say with a grain of salt. Historically he has not really kept his words on things. IMO you can risk it and trust him, but don't be surprised if they say we are moving beyond the 18650 format to something better in the near future. What I do hope is they keep compatibility with whatever new format they are using.
 

cduzz

Member
Jun 6, 2019
383
432
boston ma
IMO, tesla should redesign the s/x pack in 21700, but even that I would say skip and just go straight to 46800 cells they are planning to use for their semi. Again bigger so less cells to go wrong. The 21700 would be feasible but maybe with a slight thickness because the 21700 is 70mm long and the 18650 is 65mm long. So you will have to grow 5mm. Or make certain thing thinner to fit. The 46800 for s/x might be a long shot (1.5cm extra) unless they flip it on its side and do something fancy, but anything fancy will cost more money which I think tesla is avoiding and correctly so. They can make case thinner or remove some stuff, but I think that would compromise the safety of the pack.

So, from 85-type | Battery Modules | Products | HSR Motors, the *module* dimensions are roughly 27 x 12 x 3", meaning that the module which fits inside the pack is 3 inches, so perhaps if you were to make a battery pack without modules (just cells glued together, with cooling across the top) it would fit?

As far as the long term ownership of "legacy" S models; speaking only for myself, I'd be perfectly happy with a low nickel / low cost LIFPO3 battery for my S90 if it got me 250ish miles at 100%; the thing with these cells is you can fill them to 100% and leave them there as long as you like, so you'd be giving up the 90-100% range if you want to spend a week charging it to get to 99.5%. Assuming it's substantially less expensive than the existing set of packs...
 
Dec 27, 2015
96
383
Cheyenne, WY
We just replaced our original, pre-production 85 kWh battery in our 2012 Signature Edition P85 at 122,000 miles. While a remanufactured battery might have been an option at $16,000 installed, it would have charged at only 90kW maximum, had a "rated range" of 256 miles, and had a 12 month/12,000 miles warranty. Instead we chose to upgrade to a new 90 kWh battery, which is capable of charging (under ideal conditions) at up to 250 kW, and gives us closer to 300 miles of range for $22,000 installed. It also comes with a 4 year/50,000 miles warranty.
 

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ucmndd

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2016
6,384
11,893
California
We just replaced our original, pre-production 85 kWh battery in our 2012 Signature Edition P85 at 122,000 miles. While a remanufactured battery might have been an option at $16,000 installed, it would have charged at only 90kW maximum, had a "rated range" of 256 miles, and had a 12 month/12,000 miles warranty. Instead we chose to upgrade to a new 90 kWh battery, which is capable of charging (under ideal conditions) at up to 250 kW, and gives us closer to 300 miles of range for $22,000 installed. It also comes with a 4 year/50,000 miles warranty.
Out of curiosity, does your car think it’s a “P90” now, or does it still say P85 in the MCU?
 

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