Exactly - many high-end ICE may be financially a write off only due to high labor cost associated with a needed repair and that provides opportunity for DIY's who have the time to put in the work. Tesla's may be financially a write off due to very high part costs, not easily countered by a DIY person.
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Service says $22k for new battery on 2012 Model S
- Thread starter badpenny
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- bad battery hv battery
Here is a recent video from Gruber founder outlining why Tesla can't get to low cost repairs. Basically stuck on large module (expensive asset) replacements methodology at SC.
Also interesting on the difficulty for them to scale by franchising. The skilled labor required isn't traditional mechanic. Its electronics + software tech.
Modern cars with its many computers makes repair difficult without diagnostic tools to communicate with these computers. The tools have to probe deep enough to successfully do component level repair (for example,, modern transmission control modules) A system like the battery pack have multiple computers within. Tesla would need to enable 3rd party tool vendors (For example Autel, target customer is small repair shops + DIYs) to build these type of tools priced accordingly to their customer base. So far, we've only seen Tesla wanting to do everything in house which is likely unscalable.
While the post warranty car owners are stuck with expensive expensive module asset repair costs, Tesla itself has the cost burden while under warranty. So far, Tesla HQ's mantra seems to be "last a million miles" which doesn't seem realistic and having to react to the field to create lower cost solutions. Generally unwilling to scale by giving up some centralized control.
Also interesting on the difficulty for them to scale by franchising. The skilled labor required isn't traditional mechanic. Its electronics + software tech.
Modern cars with its many computers makes repair difficult without diagnostic tools to communicate with these computers. The tools have to probe deep enough to successfully do component level repair (for example,, modern transmission control modules) A system like the battery pack have multiple computers within. Tesla would need to enable 3rd party tool vendors (For example Autel, target customer is small repair shops + DIYs) to build these type of tools priced accordingly to their customer base. So far, we've only seen Tesla wanting to do everything in house which is likely unscalable.
While the post warranty car owners are stuck with expensive expensive module asset repair costs, Tesla itself has the cost burden while under warranty. So far, Tesla HQ's mantra seems to be "last a million miles" which doesn't seem realistic and having to react to the field to create lower cost solutions. Generally unwilling to scale by giving up some centralized control.
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2012 Model S P85 Battery Replacement Receipt - sharing is caring
Hello everyone, I noticed a few threads asking what you get for the $20,000-22,000 battery replacement when out of warranty. You can find that answer below as the battery was replaced in an out of warranty 2012 Model S (P85). Enjoy! (Yes, my car. No, not my money.)
teslamotorsclub.com
P85 here with a "B" battery. I thought the letter designation was for remanufactured vs new battery, B being new.
aerodyne
2 of 3 EV's - Defect Free!
Interesting, but I have questions...
How does one just remove two modules?
I would think that would change the weight distribution, although if you have air, that would not matter.
If you have a P85, how do you get the power with only 350 volts?
After the swap, what does the MCU avatar say?
How does one just remove two modules?
I would think that would change the weight distribution, although if you have air, that would not matter.
If you have a P85, how do you get the power with only 350 volts?
After the swap, what does the MCU avatar say?
In the case of 1014116, the pack is a new configuration of 100kWh pack, as others have mentioned, with two modules removed, making it ~85kWh, 350VDC with the 90kWh chemistry (instead of the old 85kWh). I would say all 1014116 packs (A or B) are new at this time. The B just being the newer revision.
I believe the 1014116 pack being the replacement for the old 85kWh packs was reported first in Jan. 2020 with lots of good discussion in the thread below:
New 85kWH battery for my 2013 P85+
Got my original battery pack revision "B" (unsure of the part#) replaced over the weekend and just picked up my car. To my surprise, I now have a new battery showing a ~92% charge to be 265mi and according to the app, 100% is 288mi!!! I initially thought I got a 90kWH pack as a replacement...
teslamotorsclub.com
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Tesla has sold 14 module batteries continuously since the car was introduced.
The modules weigh about 55 pounds each, so the “weight distribution” problem we’re talking about here is equivalent to carrying around ~65% of an average sized US woman.
NJP3
Member
Makes me wonder what a 2019 Model 3 Performance battery will cost to replace when it comes time, and in how long I should expect to have to do that.. anyone know?
Perhaps a calculated extrapolation would be based on capacity and cell count? M3 Perf's ~80kWhr battery is similar capacity to MS/X's but with a lower cell count with the larger 2170 cells instead of 18650s for S/X. So perhaps a little cheaper than the S/X pack? Say ~$15k in today's $s? since removal+install+transport remains similar. Further reduction would likely depend on Tesla enabling in-field repairs which seems unlikely IMHO.
This actually bring up another worrisome issue for S/X owners : The obsolescence of Tesla's 18650 production. Will they redesign current gen S/X packs with 2170 cells? Keep a manufacturing line running for 18650s? Run rebuild operation? (most likely) If Tesla prefers looking forward, then it'd be wise to outsource rebuild operations.
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The refreshed 2021 LR and Plaid S & X both use 18650 cells in a redesigned pack with an updated chemistry. These vehicles will use 18650 cells for years to come, according to Elon.
IMO, tesla should redesign the s/x pack in 21700, but even that I would say skip and just go straight to 46800 cells they are planning to use for their semi. Again bigger so less cells to go wrong. The 21700 would be feasible but maybe with a slight thickness because the 21700 is 70mm long and the 18650 is 65mm long. So you will have to grow 5mm. Or make certain thing thinner to fit. The 46800 for s/x might be a long shot (1.5cm extra) unless they flip it on its side and do something fancy, but anything fancy will cost more money which I think tesla is avoiding and correctly so. They can make case thinner or remove some stuff, but I think that would compromise the safety of the pack.
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Thanks, good to know what the intention is
I guess obsolescence forces may reveal in various forms. For example, continued old pack component manufacturing + assembly. (chassis, electronics etc) Curious if new chemistry have software thermal/charge/discharge curve management differences. Anyway, probably more detail engineering stuff with little outside visibility.I would always take what musk say with a grain of salt. Historically he has not really kept his words on things. IMO you can risk it and trust him, but don't be surprised if they say we are moving beyond the 18650 format to something better in the near future. What I do hope is they keep compatibility with whatever new format they are using.Thanks, good to know what the intention is
Yeah you are right on that. Yes so 5mm from going from the 18650 to 21700 is not much but maybe 15mm from going from 18650 to 46800 might be too much of a change to keep safety thickness. Thanks will edit my post to correct for info.
So, from 85-type | Battery Modules | Products | HSR Motors, the *module* dimensions are roughly 27 x 12 x 3", meaning that the module which fits inside the pack is 3 inches, so perhaps if you were to make a battery pack without modules (just cells glued together, with cooling across the top) it would fit?
As far as the long term ownership of "legacy" S models; speaking only for myself, I'd be perfectly happy with a low nickel / low cost LIFPO3 battery for my S90 if it got me 250ish miles at 100%; the thing with these cells is you can fill them to 100% and leave them there as long as you like, so you'd be giving up the 90-100% range if you want to spend a week charging it to get to 99.5%. Assuming it's substantially less expensive than the existing set of packs...
Jason Bloomberg
Member
We just replaced our original, pre-production 85 kWh battery in our 2012 Signature Edition P85 at 122,000 miles. While a remanufactured battery might have been an option at $16,000 installed, it would have charged at only 90kW maximum, had a "rated range" of 256 miles, and had a 12 month/12,000 miles warranty. Instead we chose to upgrade to a new 90 kWh battery, which is capable of charging (under ideal conditions) at up to 250 kW, and gives us closer to 300 miles of range for $22,000 installed. It also comes with a 4 year/50,000 miles warranty.
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ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Out of curiosity, does your car think it’s a “P90” now, or does it still say P85 in the MCU?
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