SF Bay Area Residents - Are You Really Saving Money vs Gas?

[ohmman]

I haven't followed what has happened with PG&E net metering since we moved. Are they still buying from people with solar at the $.496 rate? That certainly would change the analysis. For us, though, we were using a lot of electricity during the peak periods for a good part of the year due to air conditioning and I really have no idea how you can sell to PG&E while running air conditioning (I never got that deep into the research because the numbers just weren't working).

They've done their best to change. Just last summer, they discontinued EV-A for EV2-A, which pushes peak rates outside of max solar. But many of us are grandfathered in, and I was told that if you have storage (as I do), EV2-A is incompatible so they're still pushing EV-A on them. Storage helps a lot to slide peak and arbitrage those good rates, as well. I sell every electron at peak rates and consume from my Powerwalls midday, AC or not.

 

[mattack4000]

Or just use less power....

 

[Silicon Desert]

Thanks for the suggestions. My pool pump is variable speed, and I run it mostly at 2,200 RPM.

Great. And you might already know this, but I'll mention just in case. Your pool pump energy consumption somewhat models a square law. In other words, if you run it at half the speed, the energy consumption is roughly 1/4. Therefore, if you are able to run the pump at half speed and able to keep water running through the panels after they are primed, then you can run the pump twice as long and still get the same about of water turnover in the pool, yet save 1/2 the energy cost. Been there done that for many years.

 

[Silicon Desert]

It depends on what their kW/h price is when they are charging the car at home, which depends on their rate plan, how much electricity they use to power their house, and how much they drive, and which ICE you are comparing that to (its MPG)

That's a great summary ! It sounds like this information somewhat applies to people in areas where there are tiered rates or various rate plans, or TOU. That applied to me when I was in California. Up here, I only have one rate plan when I signed up, and there are no tiers, or TOU. It's roughly 9 cents per kWh at all hours of the day. Thus, a couple of those variables don't apply to me..... doesn't matter when I charge or how much other energy I am using in the home. But yea, as you say, there sure are a lot of variables.

 

[jboy210]

We live in the East Bay and are on Time of Use ($.20/$0.40). We find the plan plus getting an EV did save use quite a bit of money. But we are taking the next step and doing to solar plus powerwalls. Should have 12Kw up on the roof by summer and 2 powerwalls installed. We are hoping this will offset much of our electrical use (no pool). But to be honest, the driving factors is the PG&E PSPS. Sitting here unable to work (we work from home) for 3 days was the limit. Our goal with the solar and powerwalls is to never not have have electrical power due to PG&Es whims.

 

[kev1n]

you are not wrong, being on EV-A comes with its cons as well if you have very high usage during the day. having solar helps a bit

 

[JPP]

Solar is key. No solar with PG&E in NoCA is punitive. I just got phased out of the EV-A plan (6 years and out). That plan was the best of a bunch of bad PG&E choices. They wanted to roll me to the EV2-A plan, which was actually the most expensive for me of all of the plans. The basic E-1 tiered plan was the best, followed by the TOU-A plan. I still have NEM. I am not sure what will happen once I get my 2 Powerwalls in a few weeks. But not sure why Ohmman was told EV2-A is not compatible with Powerwalls. if PG&E can find a way to extract more $$, they will.

 

[ohmman]

Solar is key. No solar with PG&E in NoCA is punitive. I just got phased out of the EV-A plan (6 years and out). That plan was the best of a bunch of bad PG&E choices. They wanted to roll me to the EV2-A plan, which was actually the most expensive for me of all of the plans. The basic E-1 tiered plan was the best, followed by the TOU-A plan. I still have NEM. I am not sure what will happen once I get my 2 Powerwalls in a few weeks. But not sure why Ohmman was told EV2-A is not compatible with Powerwalls. if PG&E can find a way to extract more $$, they will.

More details on my discussion with PG&E here. That whole thread is really pertinent to the discussion here, and I’d recommend anyone interested in the PG&E EV details to check it out.

 

[JPP]

More details on my discussion with PG&E here. That whole thread is really pertinent to the discussion here, and I’d recommend anyone interested in the PG&E EV details to check it out.

Yes, indeed....but you lucked out as you got storage installed within the window to be grandfathered into EV-A for a while. I timed out in November 2019 (6 years after PTO for my solar), and won't have PWs until end-January (and likely a new PTO in February 2020). So I have a gap. I can maybe beg PG&E to put me back onto EV-A, but I have no hope.

 

[astrorob]

well with respect to the contents of that thread, i don't know what happened with ohmman, but when i called PGE in early november they told me unequivocally that a new PTO for PWs is irrelevant for being grandfathered onto EV-A. for a while i thought that a new PW PTO on NEM2 (i am on NEM1 now) would make me eligible for grandfathering but again they told me NEM1 vs NEM2 had no bearing on it. they take the oldest PTO for the start of grandfathering.

so @JPP i'm not sure there's anything you (we) could/can do about this. my understanding is that the only kind of PTO that would work for this is the PTO you'd get after adding capacity to your PV system.

 

[JPP]

well with respect to the contents of that thread, i don't know what happened with ohmman, but when i called PGE in early november they told me unequivocally that a new PTO for PWs is irrelevant for being grandfathered onto EV-A. for a while i thought that a new PW PTO on NEM2 (i am on NEM1 now) would make me eligible for grandfathering but again they told me NEM1 vs NEM2 had no bearing on it. they take the oldest PTO for the start of grandfathering.

so @JPP i'm not sure there's anything you (we) could/can do about this. my understanding is that the only kind of PTO that would work for this is the PTO you'd get after adding capacity to your PV system.

I spent a lot of quality time this weekend reading through the PG&E web site. As far as I can tell, just adding PW does not trigger a new PTO and/or a specific review/new rate from PG&E. My NEM1 comes from my 2013 PTO for my solar. And whether you are on NEM1 or NEM2, there is like a 20-25 year time period/grandfathering after which NEM 'expires'. And as noted above, they really want to get folks off of EV-A and have really set a time limit (like no more than 5 years from your PTO). They are pushing EV2-A (and migrating unsuspecting current EV-A folks) which for me is just the worst/most $$ plan. And note that the TOU-A plan will sunset in June 2020 and evolve with a later peak period (sort of like EV2-A) to more or less match TOU-B. Oh, and BTW, if you get a medical baseline credit (you need special equipment at home like an oxygen concentrator or CPAP), this baseline credit does not apply to EV rate plans or TOU-B.

A real mess and hard to figure out.

 

[ohmman]

I think it's so hard to figure out that PG&E doesn't even have a consistent line on it. I am definitely still on EV-A as of my last bill, so I'm assuming what the rep told me was correct. He had to ask a supervisor, which seems to be common when this question comes up. It may be worth filing a complaint with the CPUC - PG&E should have a consistent line on this by law.

 

[astrorob]

I think it's so hard to figure out that PG&E doesn't even have a consistent line on it. I am definitely still on EV-A as of my last bill, so I'm assuming what the rep told me was correct. He had to ask a supervisor, which seems to be common when this question comes up. It may be worth filing a complaint with the CPUC - PG&E should have a consistent line on this by law.

that's a pretty good point - my guy also had to ask a supervisor after first sort of agreeing with me that the grandfathering window would be reset. he was just reading off of the document that describes the rules for grandfathering though, so it was a little like just his own opinion.

I spent a lot of quality time this weekend reading through the PG&E web site. As far as I can tell, just adding PW does not trigger a new PTO and/or a specific review/new rate from PG&E. My NEM1 comes from my 2013 PTO for my solar. And whether you are on NEM1 or NEM2, there is like a 20-25 year time period/grandfathering after which NEM 'expires'. And as noted above, they really want to get folks off of EV-A and have really set a time limit (like no more than 5 years from your PTO). They are pushing EV2-A (and migrating unsuspecting current EV-A folks) which for me is just the worst/most $$ plan. And note that the TOU-A plan will sunset in June 2020 and evolve with a later peak period (sort of like EV2-A) to more or less match TOU-B. Oh, and BTW, if you get a medical baseline credit (you need special equipment at home like an oxygen concentrator or CPAP), this baseline credit does not apply to EV rate plans or TOU-B.

A real mess and hard to figure out.

well the form for adding the PW is a new interconnection agreement, and on it there's a bunch of checkboxes indicating what rate you would like to be on. i don't know if that strictly equals a new PTO or a rate review but in spirit it seems very similar.

i think in ohmman's thread, the idea popped up that if you submit form 79-1193-02 to interconnect the powerwalls (interconnection under NEM2.0) then that would trigger a new PTO for purposes of grandfathering onto EV for 5 more years. this is what i specifically asked about and was told that even if it triggered a new PTO, that PGE would still take the oldest PTO as the starting point for the grandfathering. subsequently i asked tesla to re-do the paperwork using form 79-1193 which at the very least should leave me on NEM1.0.

before i got solar i wrote some software to figure out what rate i should be on and i guess it only told me what is a no-brainer: that i should be on EV-A. when this change was announced i rejiggered the script to add in the new rates and i got the same answer as you did - TOU-A is the best plan. while i don't trust them as far as i can throw them, PGE's tool gave the same answer. i didn't know about TOU-A being time-shifted as well... that's just going to drive up my yearly cost more.

 

[JPP]

that's a pretty good point - my guy also had to ask a supervisor after first sort of agreeing with me that the grandfathering window would be reset. he was just reading off of the document that describes the rules for grandfathering though, so it was a little like just his own opinion.




well the form for adding the PW is a new interconnection agreement, and on it there's a bunch of checkboxes indicating what rate you would like to be on. i don't know if that strictly equals a new PTO or a rate review but in spirit it seems very similar.

i think in ohmman's thread, the idea popped up that if you submit form 79-1193-02 to interconnect the powerwalls (interconnection under NEM2.0) then that would trigger a new PTO for purposes of grandfathering onto EV for 5 more years. this is what i specifically asked about and was told that even if it triggered a new PTO, that PGE would still take the oldest PTO as the starting point for the grandfathering. subsequently i asked tesla to re-do the paperwork using form 79-1193 which at the very least should leave me on NEM1.0.

before i got solar i wrote some software to figure out what rate i should be on and i guess it only told me what is a no-brainer: that i should be on EV-A. when this change was announced i rejiggered the script to add in the new rates and i got the same answer as you did - TOU-A is the best plan. while i don't trust them as far as i can throw them, PGE's tool gave the same answer. i didn't know about TOU-A being time-shifted as well... that's just going to drive up my yearly cost more.

So if I get a new PTO then am I forced onto NEM2?? And I still don't see how I can revert back to EV-A now that they kicked me off. But if I could somehow convince them to put me back on EV-A and restart the 5 year clock, that would be fantastic. I can dream, can't I?

 

[arnolddeleon]

Great. And you might already know this, but I'll mention just in case. Your pool pump energy consumption somewhat models a square law. In other words, if you run it at half the speed, the energy consumption is roughly 1/4. Therefore, if you are able to run the pump at half speed and able to keep water running through the panels after they are primed, then you can run the pump twice as long and still get the same about of water turnover in the pool, yet save 1/2 the energy cost. Been there done that for many years.

When we switched to variable speed pump we adjusted it so pumped at the lowest setting possible to push the water up to the panels. If the pool is not heating the pump pumps at an even lower speed.

In addition if you need more hours for circulation (not for heating obviously) run it off peak (which is what I do).

 

[astrorob]

So if I get a new PTO then am I forced onto NEM2?? And I still don't see how I can revert back to EV-A now that they kicked me off. But if I could somehow convince them to put me back on EV-A and restart the 5 year clock, that would be fantastic. I can dream, can't I?

no. just make sure to fill out the interconnection agreement under NEM1 - the form number is 79-1193 (no suffix.) the NEM2 interconnection agreement is 79-1193-02.

at the time i received the filled in -02 (november) it had a checkbox for EV-A (but no checkbox for any EV2 rate). i guess you might submit it with EV-A checked and see if they put you back on that plan? it could delay your PW installation if they kick it back though.

again from the thread ohmman pointed to there was speculation that if you did the PW interconnection under nem2.0 that it would reset the grandfathering clock, but at least according to one rep and his supervisor in nov 2019, that is not true. it may have been true in the past.

 

[JPP]

no. just make sure to fill out the interconnection agreement under NEM1 - the form number is 79-1193 (no suffix.) the NEM2 interconnection agreement is 79-1193-02.

at the time i received the filled in -02 (november) it had a checkbox for EV-A (but no checkbox for any EV2 rate). i guess you might submit it with EV-A checked and see if they put you back on that plan? it could delay your PW installation if they kick it back though.

again from the thread ohmman pointed to there was speculation that if you did the PW interconnection under nem2.0 that it would reset the grandfathering clock, but at least according to one rep and his supervisor in nov 2019, that is not true. it may have been true in the past.

What is even more confusing is the need to actually fill out the PG&E forms if I am not adding any solar panels/generation and if my Powerwalls will NOT be drawing from the grid. And I assume 2 Powerwalls do not push me into the 'over 10 kW' category requiring additional metering.

 

[astrorob]

What is even more confusing is the need to actually fill out the PG&E forms if I am not adding any solar panels/generation and if my Powerwalls will NOT be drawing from the grid. And I assume 2 Powerwalls do not push me into the 'over 10 kW' category requiring additional metering.

alls i know is that tesla sent me the aforementioned form, plus the form that gives them permission to see my PGE bills/account history. i assume it's a necessary form for interconnecting storage.

i think each powerwall can provide 5kW continuous so maybe that means there is another form for > 2 powerwalls? (i also have ordered 2 powerwalls, which should be exactly 10kW)

 

[Quesder]

Or put in a separate meter for the car and go on the EV2-B plan.

Hi, I am interested in this, but is it even doable and legal? How to ask PGE do this for you?
I live in a single family house.

 

[Mardak]

That applied to me when I was in California. Up here, I only have one rate plan when I signed up, and there are no tiers, or TOU. It's roughly 9 cents per kWh at all hours of the day.

We didn't have an EV when we were in the Bay Area, but we did move like you and recently installed Tesla Energy solar without Powerwall ideally selling back at a portion of summer peak rates (37.4¢/kWh) to then buy back at night at electric vehicle rates (4.6¢/kWh) getting roughly 7kWh for each 1kWh sent. And the "winter" rates are cheaper than the standard 9¢/kWh too. Overall, yeah being able to charge at 9¢/kWh is great and charging at half that is even better!

NV Energy

But with PG&E, it looks like peak hours extend pretty late, so getting Powerwalls is practically required.