Does using supercharger actually save money for a road trip compared to petrol?

[Maximillan]

Once you get your car you'll get some real world experience and be able to make up your own mind on best value. Your data driven arguments may be valid in theory, however you're arguing with existing owners who know what it's like to drive long distances and be unsure of whether the 3rd party charger will be working or have a long queue of Polestars / cheapskates waiting for the one that is working.

I personally prefer to use Chargefox to the Tesla SC when I have the choice, however on a recent 3300km road trip on the four occasions that I had the opportunity (co-located chargers) to use either, I only once managed to use Chargefox. This is simply due to Chargefox usually only having a couple of 350kw chargers in a location, and one or both of them being out of order.

I hope that by the time you get your car that the 3rd party charging network is so well built out and ubiquitous that it becomes a viable option on road trips, as for me it would allow me to consider other EV manufacturers when the lease for the Tesla is up.

When it comes to your Tesla letting you know in advance how many chargers are working at your next road trip stop, and the number of available and working chargers, the Supercharger network currently has no peer in Australia. The premium is well worth it, however you may certainly have a different opinion which is totally ok.

 

[Vostok]

The ACT is '100% renewable power' - despite having no evening generation or bulk storage... it's word games.

Well my comment wasn’t “word games”. Perhaps you need to read my renewable stats thread, where I report monthly renewable figures for each State based solely on in-state generation. Which is an unambiguous and honest view of renewable generation - no word games or trickery!

And SA is indeed majority renewable powered, even overnight.

National and State Renewable Energy stats

Come on NSW and QLD, get some more wind! Yep. Although it is finally happening, quite a few wind farms under construction in both states. Bango wind farm in NSW will be 244 MW, 46 turbines, it was to be fully operational by the end of 2022/early 2023. It is the second largest wind farm in...

teslamotorsclub.com

 

[Vostok]

Must be regional. In the USA the Tesla charging network is vastly better maintained, located, and is as cheap-or-cheaper than anything else in most locations.

Yes, well the problem in the US is third-party networks can only earn revenue from about 30% of the BEV fleet, because Tesla has 70% of the market and Tesla owners there rarely use third-party networks since Teslas use a different plug and owners don’t like fiddling with adaptors.

Any business trying to make a buck when they can’t sell into 70% of the market is clearly going to struggle, with less investment in maintenance and reliability the result, and it becomes a vicious circle.

Here, third-party networks can earn revenue from the entire BEV market, since basically all new BEVs (except for Nissan) use CCS2. That obviously provides access to a larger revenue base.

Evie here is the best third-party network. They have about twice as many sites as Tesla (110 vs 56) although the average number of stalls per site is lower. At Christmas, 99% of their sites were operational. Evie would easily meet Tesla’s own criteria for inclusion on the in-car charger navigation. Their sites are often in better locations than Tesla superchargers, more convenient and with better amenities nearby.

 

[SL666]

Well my comment wasn’t “word games”. Perhaps you need to read my renewable stats thread, where I report monthly renewable figures for each State based solely on in-state generation. Which is an unambiguous and honest view of renewable generation - no word games or trickery!

And SA is indeed majority renewable powered, even overnight.

National and State Renewable Energy stats

Come on NSW and QLD, get some more wind! Yep. Although it is finally happening, quite a few wind farms under construction in both states. Bango wind farm in NSW will be 244 MW, 46 turbines, it was to be fully operational by the end of 2022/early 2023. It is the second largest wind farm in...

teslamotorsclub.com

I wasn't suggesting your post was word games - I was suggesting the ACT government are playing word games - whilst touting they are 100% renewables - the winter heating load pushes the natural gas consumption to the point of 60% of the energy use of the ACT - 46% overall through the year.

You don't list the ACT in your figures - maybe upstream sources don't separate them out because 100% of generation would be solar - but it would be realistically almost nothing (despite having actually quite a reasonable amount of decent solar farms).

Same government that's spending $6k/person to build the tram - that will eventually service 3% of the population.
/rant

 

[Lachlan Smith]

The problem with the ACT is the lack of third party ultra rapid DC fast charging.

As for the light rail, 9% of Canberra's 395790 residents live within a 1km walk of the light rail[1], at a $675 million construction cost[2], that is $18949 per resident in the catchment of the light rail stage 1. Compare that to the cost of a car space at a park n ride, that represents good value for money which are upwards of $20k per parking space, and even as high as $115k per parking space for the Berwick car park [3].
[1] How are we paying for light rail in Canberra? | Riotact.
[2] Light rail's $675m final bill
[3] ‘Ludicrous’: Coalition paid $115,000 a space for car park in Melbourne

 

[Vostok]

You don't list the ACT in your figures - maybe upstream sources don't separate them out because 100% of generation would be solar - but it would be realistically almost nothing (despite having actually quite a reasonable amount of decent solar farms).

OpenNEM does not split the ACT out - it is included in NSW. In any event, you are right, the ACT has only renewable generation sources (2 small grid-managed solar farms, no fossil sources, and the rest is rooftop), so in terms of in-state (or in-territory) energy generation, the ACT would be 100% under my calculation, because I divide total renewable generation by the total of all generation within that state/territory. But for the ACT, that is only a small proportion of its total consumption, so would be rather misleading.

At a state level, imports and exports are a small proportion of total consumption, less than 10%, and so an in-state calculation is valid.

 

[Chuq]

OpenNEM does not split the ACT out - it is included in NSW.

Historical note - ACT used to be part of a separate NEM region, called "Snowy" - which included Snowy Mountains Hydro in its generation. I'm guessing it was merged because the correlation was pretty arbitrary.

 

[cafz]

As for the light rail, 9% of Canberra's 395790 residents live within a 1km walk of the light rail[1], at a $675 million construction cost[2], that is $18949 per resident in the catchment of the light rail stage 1. Compare that to the cost of a car space at a park n ride, that represents good value for money which are upwards of $20k per parking space, and even as high as $115k per parking space for the Berwick car park [3].

Not to mention, everyone who drives on Northbourne Avenue in peak hour is benefitting from the light rail today, because there's no longer an elephant parade of buses in the left lane.

 

[cafz]

OpenNEM does not split the ACT out - it is included in NSW. In any event, you are right, the ACT has only renewable generation sources (2 small grid-managed solar farms, no fossil sources, and the rest is rooftop), so in terms of in-state (or in-territory) energy generation, the ACT would be 100% under my calculation, because I divide total renewable generation by the total of all generation within that state/territory. But for the ACT, that is only a small proportion of its total consumption, so would be rather misleading.

This is because the ACT and NSW are one NEM region, with the same wholesale pricing.

ACT does also have small scale hydro (at Mt Stromlo, on the end of the pipeline from Bendora Dam) and biogas at Mugga Lane landfill.

 

[cafz]

Historical note - ACT used to be part of a separate NEM region, called "Snowy" - which included Snowy Mountains Hydro in its generation. I'm guessing it was merged because the correlation was pretty arbitrary.

It's not all that arbitrary - it's based on transmission limits. The Snowy Hydro Murray generators are in the VIctoria NEM region now even though they're actually located in NSW, which mostly makes sense - there's considerably more transmission south than north - but occasionally the lack of a separate Snowy region manifests itself as counterprice flows between Vic and NSW.

 

[SL666]

As for the light rail, 9% of Canberra's 395790 residents live within a 1km walk of the light rail[1], at a $675 million construction cost[2], that is $18949 per resident in the catchment of the light rail stage 1.

at 2.5 people/household, could have bought every house a m3 - the number i saw about 3% was based on people a 400m walk - some kind of arbitrary 'how far would people walk for public transport' number - lucky they don't - given that it can only carry ~2400 people an hour.

Also - i was including the stage est price of near as makes no different 1bn.

 

[Phido]

I hope that by the time you get your car that the 3rd party charging network is so well built out and ubiquitous that it becomes a viable option on road trips, as for me it would allow me to consider other EV manufacturers when the lease for the Tesla is up.

I doubt that. My car is arriving this month. Unfortunately my travels are beyond the East coast of NSW and outside of Victoria. The superchargers are good, but IMO, they aren't the game changers in Australia as they are in other markets.

While I don't have an electric car currently, I have driven them, and I do drive scoping out the EV charging sites, and probably see more EV charging sites than many urban EV owners do.

Yes, well the problem in the US is third-party networks can only earn revenue from about 30% of the BEV fleet, because Tesla has 70% of the market and Tesla owners there rarely use third-party networks since Teslas use a different plug and owners don’t like fiddling with adaptors.

The US has a mix of connectors, Tesla has a large established network. The other networks are way behind tesla in the US. While it will be all CSS eventually, Tesla has a huge advantage in the US. That isn't the same everywhere, like Australia.

Evie here is the best third-party network. They have about twice as many sites as Tesla (110 vs 56) although the average number of stalls per site is lower. At Christmas, 99% of their sites were operational. Evie would easily meet Tesla’s own criteria for inclusion on the in-car charger navigation. Their sites are often in better locations than Tesla superchargers, more convenient and with better amenities nearby.

IMO Tesla Superchargers are middle range here in a competitive market. Evie is good. If Tesla could get to 100 Supercharger sites that would make the Tesla a much broader network and a more convincing argument, at the moment, the Superchargers aren't common enough.

Evie charge stations look cool. Cooler than most of Australia's supercharger sites. With solar panels, shade, high speed chargers, multiple bays, 24/7 access, good locations. Under cover chargers, out of the sun and the rain.

Meanwhile some Supercharger sites are like this..

No Sealed surface, no shade, no park markings, ice vehicles, Victorian parking quality etc..

But then again, Tesla knows more than anyone about everything. So I guess the supercharger is the superior site and worth the extra expense, always, in every case, even if the charger is free and at your destination.

 

[alliwantisaY]

What is the original post of this thread. Something about saving money? My point is you can also charge at home and charge at other chargers than Tesla for low cost or Free, or charge at a destination charger. Apparently that offends people.

Apparently people are unaware how charging works overseas, and the level of convenience and affordability that isn't offered here. Tesla doesn't have the fastest chargers, not the widest network in Australia. Its nice. But it doesn't run the market.

I don't think anyones arguing that there is enough Tesla super chargers or that they think the price couldn't be lower but I do think that if a Tesla owner had a choice between 2 supercharger sites within 5 mins from each other, one being a Tesla and one being a 3rd party they are more likely to choose the Tesla site due to it's reliability/ability to precondition battery etc.

I'm in WA so yes very very few Tesla sites but more will come. The 3 regional sites are specifically placed on major routes to enable a long trip, ie they are around 200km from Perth and allow you to leap frog to somewhere that is 500km from Perth. Each is on the main highway/route

With Teslas plan to open up chargers to more than Teslas together with an ever increasing Tesla population their utilisation rates will increase which should help fund more and more sites. Until then everyone will be on a mish mash of home charging, Tesla chargers and 3rd party chargers with little choices due to the developing infrastructure still growing.

 

[Phido]

I don't think anyones arguing that there is enough Tesla super chargers or that they think the price couldn't be lower but I do think that if a Tesla owner had a choice between 2 supercharger sites within 5 mins from each other, one being a Tesla and one being a 3rd party they are more likely to choose the Tesla site due to it's reliability/ability to precondition battery etc.

Which is my main point and the OP question solution, you don't have to use Tesla Superchargers, heck you don't have to use any fast charger on a Sydney - Canb trip of about 300km.

My main grief with Supercharging is it should IMO be a bit cheaper and more avalible, $0.50 would be ideal for tesla owners IMO. If it is the same as every other high speed charger, its not a selling point at all for tesla. $0.66 vs $0.60 means its not specifically a tesla advantage, they are about the same. 100 sites would be significantly better than ~50 sites they have now. Australia is a big country, 50 sites barely does around the big cities. The only state you can drive around with supercharger access is bloody anti-ev victoria.

With Teslas plan to open up chargers to more than Teslas together with an ever increasing Tesla population their utilisation rates will increase which should help fund more and more sites. Until then everyone will be on a mish mash of home charging, Tesla chargers and 3rd party chargers with little choices due to the developing infrastructure still growing.

IMO in Australia will always be a mix of fast DC providers. But the Tesla supercharger network needs to branch out away from the coast, but even on the coast it needs more on highway V3/4 chargers with greater capacity.

South Australia and WA have very little supercharging capability, but don't see the huge volume of traffic either. Single or double station sites will be ideal, and Tesla doesn't really specialise in those. But in Australia they have very few charge sites, and basically no large charge locations. We will see sites between Brisb-Syd-Melb melt down during easter and Christmas school holidays, where every EV family jumps in the car and goes.

Tesla is selling up a storm in Australia. They should start building proper sites like they do in the US and Europe and elsewhere. There should be large sites ~300km out Sydney and Melbourne like this.

The Albury site should be like this. I am happy that the Benalla site will be reasonable.,

Biggest Tesla supercharger site in Australia - the first to have 20 stalls - is on the way

Tesla's biggest supercharger site in Australia is on the way. Where is it and how big is Tesla thinking?

thedriven.io

But Sydney, which is bigger than Melbourne, in NSW which as a far larger population than Victoria, who buys more teslas than the rest of Australia, has nothing like that. The Goulburn charger is always busy long weekends and holiday periods and has been for years all hours of the day.

And it isn't on the highway, it isn't ultra quick to get to, you aren't easily able to que for them. Tesla has to stop converting the back of supermarket carparks in Australia and make some proper supercharging sites if they are selling more cars than Toyota. 6 x 120Kw chargers to serve ~8 million isn't good enough in 2023. It needs to be 20 V3/V4 stalls.

 

[Vostok]

The US has a mix of connectors, Tesla has a large established network. The other networks are way behind tesla in the US. While it will be all CSS eventually, Tesla has a huge advantage in the US. That isn't the same everywhere, like Australia.

I doubt Tesla will move to CCS1 in the USA. There’s no reason for them to. CCS1 is not an improvement on the Tesla Proprietary Connector and in many ways retrograde. As to “NACS”, the rest of the industry there will shun it. So they will remain a bifurcated BEV ecosystem.

Different story here though, where Type 2 / CCS2 was obviously superior to the Tesla Proprietary Connector, so made sense for everyone to join that party (except for Nissan who hasn’t got the memo yet, although I vaguely recall reading somewhere the Ariya would have CCS2).

 

[cafz]

At least in NSW Tesla Superchargers are the only sites faster than 50kW away from the coast. Tenterfield, Tamworth, Hollydene, Bathurst, Dubbo, Narooma are all the fastest charging for a long way around.

It would of course be nice for more. Wagga and Armidale are supposed to be on the way this year.

 

[RichardV]

At least in NSW Tesla Superchargers are the only sites faster than 50kW away from the coast. Tenterfield, Tamworth, Hollydene, Bathurst, Dubbo, Narooma are all the fastest charging for a long way around.

It would of course be nice for more. Wagga and Armidale are supposed to be on the way this year.

For Tesla to meet the install deadline of October 2024 for the 29 sites with NSW funding not yet under construction I expect to see a few more than 2 opened in the rest of this year.

 

[BreatheSafe]

Evie charge stations look cool. Cooler than most of Australia's supercharger sites.

That's what I have been missing, the coolness of DCFC.

 

[aegidius]

next they will start putting up shades - with solar panels

Many already are, to power not just the chargers but the adjacent building. See the Knockrow Supercharger for an example.