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Short-Term TSLA Price Movements - 2016

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Unfortunately Musk's bizarre history with Hyperloop, which he made up on the back of a napkin *as part of a public attack on California HSR*, claiming that it would cost less (nope, all the cost is in civil construction which is identical) and ignoring the fact that it has lower capacity.... this means that I'm much more inclined to expect that Musk meant what he said and really was proposing to take riders out of packed large buses and put them a few at a time into smaller vehicles.

Because that's *exactly what he proposed* as an "alternative" to HSR -- taking riders out of packed trains and putting them a few at a time into smaller vehicles. (It's not really an alternative.)

Musk has *form* here, and although I'd love to give him the benefit of the doubt, this latest nonsense is precisely in the same line with the bogus claims about Hyperloop.

I want you to be right about what he's proposing. Really want you to be right. The evidence points the other way though.

That's quite brilliant of you to notice. I also always felt the Hyperloop was always really cool (lots of positive media attention, an engineering competition etc.) just to sabotage public transport as it is thought of today. Part of Musk's longer term plan is to seize the current public transport market and have Tesla Ridesharing services replace it.

If Elon believed Hyperloop to be an important part of the puzzle he would have Tesla or SpaceX do it (properly). Now? Freeware. Open source. Circus for the people (engineering competition). Nah, not important to Elon.
 
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** I've been doing tests on some Tesla cells circa 2015, and aging wise, they don't act like "normal" lithium-ion. Mine came from a car with ~40k miles, and after "abusing them" a bit more (high/deep discharges, fast charges), they're still gaining capacity. My early suspicion is they're designed to reverse-age for the first several years/couple hundred cycles. Further, just limiting full charges to ~80% capacity does mind-blowing things for cycle lifespan - something really easy to do if you have predetermined freight routes - if you only need 40% capacity to deliver a load, don't charge past 50-60%.

Sorry folks for the OT post:
I too have been doing some testing on some Tesla cells (from a 2012 S85 A pack). They have been very robust, even with some extremes such as overcharging and running to zero volts with a load for months. Degradation has been minimal (My equipment isn't super accurate though). I haven't noticed any increase in capacity however. For some reason whenever I comment on this, I am dumped on with dislikes. <Runs away>
 
to be clear, is 11 TWh batteries, 11 terawatt hours (11 million megawatt hours) (have you been following the Diablo canyon nuke decommissioning articles)
Yes, the scale is extreme here. We have been discussing an end state for the whole globe with 100% renewables for all energy. So at this global scale something on order of 500 to 1000 TWh of storage will be needed, not accounting for growth in consumptions! It's a huge scale! Diablo Canyon is trivial in comparison.
 
Sorry folks for the OT post:
I too have been doing some testing on some Tesla cells (from a 2012 S85 A pack). They have been very robust, even with some extremes such as overcharging and running to zero volts with a load for months. Degradation has been minimal (My equipment isn't super accurate though). I haven't noticed any increase in capacity however. For some reason whenever I comment on this, I am dumped on with dislikes. <Runs away>

Mine started out at ~2970mAh, 4.20v, 50mV charge cut, to 3.0v @ 1A, to some now at 3250mAh under same conditions. Mines from an S70 iirc.
 
After hours on a Friday is strange. I feel bad for the person who sold 250 shares at a 19% discount. Remember to always use limit order, especially after hours! :rolleyes:
I guess the person who bought them must have been pretty happy. That's $11,000 in 1 second.
Could it have been exercise of call options? Fidelity will repot that as a purchase at the option strike price
 
Sure, lots of people do. And history is littered with the bankrupt fools who tried to commercialize it, because *there's no market*.

The market for mass transportation is really dependent on the *mass*. If you have to shuttle tiny groups of people to their final destination, you probably don't have the mass. If you do have the mass, people are probably walking 1 or 2 blocks to their destination.

I suppose something like this could be the driverless taxi. But that's not mass transportation, that's a taxi.
There are many medium density environments. Suburban Chicago has buses feed commuters to the train. They are usually larger than needed and only run at rush hour. The cost of drivers is the deal killer for midsize custom mass transit. Automation can bring mass customization to logistics, as it has for manufacturing.
I'd like too see a battery train car as well. Eliminate the locomotive and trains could run more frequently. More adaptive scheduling would help spread rush hour out and make denser cities less crowded.
 
I was as excited and giddy as the next guy when I read the highly anticipated SMP2 - and I loved every word until the very end. It was everything I wanted to hear.

Then my excitement ended. cuz it sounded too perfect... then I started noticing some... holes... *cringe*

I hesitate spewing my negative thoughts into public domain... but... maybe I can get some of these points smashed back down so I dont have to think about it anymore...

I feel like I want to try, since I assume I'll smash a few holes, but maybe make some bigger. Here goes. Responses in-line; your text in Italics:

1. For an outline, it read more like a fairy tale, complete with side stories. Where the first SMP had rebuttals and calculations to dispute the clearly wrong assumptions, this one... had a different narrative. SMP focuses on the core mission, thats it. SMP2 = SMP+ego+crack?. It is strangely detailed in some areas, and completely skips over others. which leads me to the next point.


I agree about the skips; I already stated as such. The rest, though, is basically steering the company's future in a certain direction. People know what's next, and get to think of that when going to study and research, and want to be on board when they pick the new teams. They won't have to go to endless meetings and trainings to figure out what the future means, because they'll have already started working on it in their minds as they are working on older topics with their hands. Investors will know what's going to happen to their investments.

I explained in my prior posts how I think a unified point of contact and internalized responsibility for the turnkey product (energy + transportation, i.e., solar panels + batteries + electrical equipment (inverters, converters, charge ports) + car) will be a better customer service experience, better word of mouth, better sales, and conceptually simpler for the public, as well as fulfilling the goals of the company, both in the minds of the buyers and the company. I think this is something Tesla should already be doing, should already have done, and should do. I also have stated many times they could do this with partnerships, and that I think Tesla has decided to fold in some family business instead. I think it's suboptimal, but will be sufficient for the goals, if execution isn't botched (i.e., screw up the solar panel financing stuff and extend the company's financing (loans) beyond its reach). It's very possible that by stating this pathway, that other pathways are already beginning to close up, and the older suboptimality will fade and it will be just as optimal as other choices.

2. M3 starts with ver.0.5? I love you Elon. I hope I'm wrong in assessing market perceptions... but 400k people just deposited for ver.0.5? I hate myself for every word that's coming out right now... but what kind of standard are we going to expect at launch?? Why include this detail in SMP2? T.T


The Machine That Builds The Machine (TMTBTM), the "Factory As Product" (FAP), whatever you want to call it -- the factory part, is the ver. 0.5, not the car itself. M3 will come out as M3 v1, not v0.5. The factory that builds M3v1 is Factoryv0.5. This was just a "glitch" in your reading (to borrow a word from the Pokemon Go players; I don't like the word, so I'm paying it back to them fast).

3. TSLA + SCTY was 2 paragraphs =_=' no new info. doesnt address ANY of the hard questions asked by some of the harder core members on this board... not much coherency with the rest of the story... its just... there... Admittedly, SCTY was there from the very beginning in SMP with 2 paragraphs also...

That last part, `admittedly, SCTY was "there" from the very beginning in SMP with 2 paragraphs', is a huge part of what put me, and just very barely, over the edge in support of the new Tesla company if they end up buying Solar City. I'll explain myself again: (1) I didn't know that was there in the original SMP, and I should have known. (Actually, I knew it was there, but I mentally glossed over the "I am heavily invested in both companies" part without thinking of the full ramifications of including that text next to the Solar City text in SMP1; apparently, relationships do confer guilt in that interpretation, something I like to keep more separate, since relatives can be messy.) (2) The original SMP doesn't state SCTY would be the exclusive Solar Panel offering integrated with Tesla. (3) The financing issues are still issues. So, the result of all of those three things is that I had to look at the execution angle, to make certain they don't screw up the financing side. Tesla's CEO neatly didn't reveal this aspect of his "fairytale" as you like to call it. But what I did understand is that there may be some further financial work to do there to fold the companies together and make new integrated products, and I'd like to see that explained, not so much in talking nice about the past (but disclosure would be nice), but about explaining the future integrated financing. I surmised a better financing arrangement with M3 buyers also buying all three products at once, and not doing solar leases so much as using all 3 to collateralize the loans and keep the payments low enough that the principles can be much higher, much like the difference in a traditional ICE car loan vs. a traditional home loan. Admittedly, that's me saying there's work to be done here, but that glimmer of hope was enough for me to move my stance from "stop, don't merge until you explain this" to "ok, if you merge, explain this".

4. Anyone else feeling that ego?


Nope. This is very modest for a modern car factory. (Remember, the current ICE cars are over a century old in most ways.) I had all these same factory design thoughts 30 years ago when I was 15, maybe younger. If anything, he's leaving out a lot of ego; there's plenty more ego that could go into it, such as SpaceX, OpenAI, planetary terraforming, sending humans and cyborgs out into the solar system, and leaving behind a happy planet full of trees and cyborgs that owe their future to Mr. Man Musk Himself. That would be a lot of ego. And yet, it's where it's headed. (I've said a thousand times --- millions of people save the world every year. Just because someone thinks and acts big doesn't make them too egotistical. There's plenty of work, including big thinking work, to be done, being done, and done already.)

Elon has achieved legendary status and deserves to talk however he wants... but this ego sounds like its masking some insecurity...

Aha. You noticed something I didn't, but I surmise you may have a point there. While I don't think he has excess ego, perhaps the style did reveal a certain .... lack of something. I prefer concrete criticisms, so I'll read on ...

Tesla started off with a mission to accelerate the advent of sustainable transportation. He even gave away their patents! thats the ultimate good guy move. But then SMP2 reads as if TESLA is going to dominate the world by brute (hippy x A.I.) force.
- It will take on Uber for sharing. and transform how car ownership works single handedly. No partnerships? what does that infrastructure look like? Will they provide the insurance? Who is liable for damages inside the car? - to address these concerns, that will necessarily mean that we will no longer have any privacy inside the cars too.... Does Tesla want to take on those problems that doesn't contribute to the core mission? I don't know...
- TESLA will make all vehicles for everyone from Semis to garbage trucks to bulldozers. in how many years will they get that capacity? after how many Giga factories? how many plants around the world? Tesla is going to eat the whole pie? that has got to be crack talking... right?


Ahh, but wait, I noticed the same problem, and it was one of the first problems I called out. I'll let your thoughts and mine about this topic process in my mind. For now, the only thing I'll respond with is that the assumption is that Tesla will just be one company, and plenty of competitors can keep up or do better if they want. There are existing car companies, after all, and there's also that Apple rumor. The one thing you say he's leaving out, that the marketplace will have competition, is something that will already exist, whether Elon mentions it or not. I don't like the lack of a more thoroughly accurate real life image of that future, but it's not a great leap to think of what that is without Elon mentioning the competition. Also, the implementation details can be left open to his company to implement in detail. Being non-detailed in what is coming up has a component of allowing whatever comes up to be seen without distraction. Of course, not being ready for it when they see it is a pitfall. So a lack of vision detail manifests weird in documents: do you make a list of unbounded possibilities to be picked apart and make the whole document even longer, or do you just leave that stuff out? It's not always the easiest to put it in the document. But, I tend to agree with your general point, nevertheless. A little bit more would be nice.

The tone of SMP was of a nerd, formulating a strategy to rescue a damsel in distress. The tone of SMP2 is of a jaded nerd that is bruised and tired of being picked on and is giving one last warning before releasing the Kraken. Maybe that is good. Playing the good guy did not generate sufficient good will to garner collaboration or even adoration from the general public.

I hugely disagree with the "collaboration or adoration from public". Tesla has had a huge success in that regard. (I'm not sure they could get any more than they already have, relative to market share. They have to be modest about how much they can do this, so not over-amping this is probably a good idea, although I find it necessary going forward for their sales model. By the way, I agree with their mission, and so does much of the rest of the public that buys into it.)

I don't know what the Kraken is. I'll google it. Ahh, giant sea monster. That's fine. I'm not worried. (Then again, I did stay in NYC for 7 years, SF pre-gentrification for 2, and San Jose post-ex-gentrification for 7, so I have a certain ... skin, and appetite for giant sea monsters, that many non-urban people aren't accustomed to. Boldness is fine in my book, as long as the boldness is not outside of the truth and good morals, but pride come before the fall, too.)

Maybe the only way to change the world is to be the villain. and crush all the enemies. People are weak. Give them a new choice and they will cower in fear. Take away the old choices, and they will rejoice the new saviour.
I'm already fully invested in team TESLA... I just wanted someone to crush my skepticism.


So, you want him to take over the world? I certainly don't. He's got a lot of particular attitudes that would make me very upset at the King much of the time if he were King. Also, if he is King, that means he can be, and should be, deposed. That would be reaching way too far for him. I don't include His Monarchy in any of my Tesla calculations. Is that my folly? I presume that Tesla will be a shining gem among a rough of rocks (or possibly just a pretty rock among rocks), but all working to the same goals. Eventually. Somehow. It's kind of like driving down a road, and then there's a mountain in the way. Well, the road is already there, so you drive the mountain road. But, it isn't very straight, and has its high points and low points. However, if you drive wrong, you can die very fast or get very hurt, very fast. On the other hand, once you get good at mountain driving, then it's just FUN.
 
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No, it's pretty much what he said.


Hopefully that's what Musk meant, becuase that makes sense and would be great.

Unfortunately Musk's bizarre history with Hyperloop, which he made up on the back of a napkin *as part of a public attack on California HSR*, claiming that it would cost less (nope, all the cost is in civil construction which is identical) and ignoring the fact that it has lower capacity.... this means that I'm much more inclined to expect that Musk meant what he said and really was proposing to take riders out of packed large buses and put them a few at a time into smaller vehicles.

Because that's *exactly what he proposed* as an "alternative" to HSR -- taking riders out of packed trains and putting them a few at a time into smaller vehicles. (It's not really an alternative.)

Musk has *form* here, and although I'd love to give him the benefit of the doubt, this latest nonsense is precisely in the same line with the bogus claims about Hyperloop.

I want you to be right about what he's proposing. Really want you to be right. The evidence points the other way though.

Musk's language is a bit awkward. I believe he is speaking conceptually, not literally, about moving riders into a different vehicle. The point is to illustrate design differences. The objective is to make compelling vehicles that improve overall all ridership. Not to divert existing riders to new vehicles, but to get more people into mass transit.


Pop Quiz for everyone

Which would be better for mass transit route outcome where demand is moderate (120 potential riders per hour)?
A. Busses at 20 minute intervals (3 per hour) with 25 passengers average on board
B. Busses at 5 minute intervals (12 per hour) with 9 passengers average on board
Let's also assume that those of the 120/h who do not ride a bus take a car.

What sort of bus would best serve A vs B?
 
Musk's language is a bit awkward. I believe he is speaking conceptually, not literally, about moving riders into a different vehicle. The point is to illustrate design differences. The objective is to make compelling vehicles that improve overall all ridership. Not to divert existing riders to new vehicles, but to get more people into mass transit.


Pop Quiz for everyone

Which would be better for mass transit route outcome where demand is moderate (120 potential riders per hour)?
A. Busses at 20 minute intervals (3 per hour) with 25 passengers average on board
B. Busses at 5 minute intervals (12 per hour) with 9 passengers average on board
Let's also assume that those of the 120/h who do not ride a bus take a car.

What sort of bus would best serve A vs B?

You left out the correct response:

C. Hyperloop.
 
I'm (really) new here, so forgive me if it hasn't already been brought up, but I suspect it's the effort and risk involved working with others not fully invested (politically) their ideas, sinking or delaying a plan unexpectedly. Elon seems to prefer being in control of as many variables as possible.

Look at how vertically integrated Tesla and SpaceX are, look at how they responded to a slow supplier earlier this year - "Our bad, we're not vertically integrated enough". They can't force line installs along major interstates without actually owning them. They can, however build an electric truck and let the market decide if they want it. If no one wants to buy them, too bad for them, and start hauling freight autonomously. Point is, batteries are getting better, and they're looking to be at the forefront of that effort. Better to be ready to execute when the battery tech is there, than just get started at that point. Or, leverage their battery tech and production ahead of everyone else.**

Else, they go the overhead line way... until some well paid lobbyist (or 50) gets the project delayed a couple years in a state or two, then they have to sink more money into politics. That's a lose-lose game, IMO.


** I've been doing tests on some Tesla cells circa 2015, and aging wise, they don't act like "normal" lithium-ion. Mine came from a car with ~40k miles, and after "abusing them" a bit more (high/deep discharges, fast charges), they're still gaining capacity. My early suspicion is they're designed to reverse-age for the first several years/couple hundred cycles. Further, just limiting full charges to ~80% capacity does mind-blowing things for cycle lifespan - something really easy to do if you have predetermined freight routes - if you only need 40% capacity to deliver a load, don't charge past 50-60%.
Good point about the vertical integration. It's expensive to do it that way though.

Re the batteries, look up coloumbic efficiency. Batteries gaining capacity is not something I've ever heard of, but I'm not an expert. The experts do measure battery life via ratio of returned charge aka coloumbic efficiency, so I'd guess that gaining charge is not possible. I haven't done the numbers, but how far does a 50% DOD move a truck over 10k cycles?
 
Was just reading some old SEC filings from TSLA about Elon's CEO option grant. One of the conditions sticks out to be as a pretty significant one as far as the ordinary shareholders go.

He gets the right to buy 527,490 shares for $31.17 each time that:

TSLA Market Cap = $3.2B + ($4B * previous vests)

AND one of the following 10 conditions is met: Italics are completed, Underlined are the next two I expect he'll complete, bold is the one I'm most interested in talking about.

• Successful completion of the Model X Engineering Prototype (Alpha);
• Successful completion of the Model X Vehicle Prototype (Beta);
• Completion of the first Model X Production Vehicle;
• Successful completion of the Gen III Engineering Prototype (Alpha);

• Successful completion of the Gen III Vehicle Prototype (Beta); (expected sometime late 2016/early 2017)
• Completion of the first Gen III Production Vehicle; (expected mid-late 2017)
• Gross margin of 30% or more for four consecutive quarters;
• Aggregate vehicle production of 100,000 vehicles;
• Aggregate vehicle production of 200,000 vehicles; (expected late 2016)
• Aggregate vehicle production of 300,000 vehicles. (expected mid-late 2017)

To get the full grant, he has until August 2022 to achieve a TSLA market cap of $43.2B AND have all 10 conditions met.

TSLA's current market cap is around 31B. To achieve all the goals based on the current ~146M outstanding shares, share price would have to be ~$295.

Thus, the way I figure it, the last option he gets, will be worth at least ($295 - $31.17) * 527,490 shares = ~$139.1M to him, and potentially a lot more than that, because I think that by the time all of the milestones are achieved the share price will be significantly higher than $295.

According to this source: Auto & Truck Manufacturers Industry Profitability by quarter, Gross, Operating and Net Margin from 1 Q 2016
1Q 2016 average gross margins in the auto industry are around 20% and have been climbing in recent quarters. Historically, average gross margin was more like 11-13%.

The 1Q 2016 SEC Filing here: Tesla Motors - Quarterly Report

30% is pretty ambitious. That SEC filing also notes a 2014 executive option grant with similar conditions. The executives have a lot of incentive on the table to achieve it.

The filing says gross margin in 1Q 2016 was 22%, down from 27.7% in 1Q 2015.

If TSLA can achieve 30% for 4 consecutive quarters as required by Elon's 2012 grant, and for 3 not necessarily consecutive years as required by the 2014 grant, it would make them one of the most profitable automakers, and do wonderful things for the rest of us shareholders.
 
I bought all of my TSLA shares 3.5 years ago. I sold some (one-third of my holdings) for the first time today. Please forgive me, but it had nothing to do with the company or the market. It was to pay cash for a new home I’ve had built. Closing will be on Monday. Thank you Tesla Motors. :)

Congratulations! So you're moving out of the apartment building you've mentioned so many times? To a house? With a garage and wiring? (See where I'm going with this?)
 
Congratulations! So you're moving out of the apartment building you've mentioned so many times? To a house? With a garage and wiring? (See where I'm going with this?)

Thank you, Johan. Yes, I had the builder install in the garage the proper wiring and outlet to charge a Tesla car. Along with the construction supervisor I inspected the outlet on Tuesday, and it appears correct. I'll move into my new home on Monday while awaiting my Model 3. :)
 
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