Smart summon liability?

[Nuclear Fusion]

You are right about different people have different understanding.

But first, for a legal case, what's in the contract.

Right now, it says driver is responsible.

Then, you can go to the court and argue that that contract is wrong because it should say Tesla is responsible.

Then the jury will decide which interpretations of the contract is reasonable.

Different understanding doesn’t matter - what matters is only what a judge (&/or jury) decides (the difference of understanding only matters on appeal...to another judge)
A judge might decide that the Tesla contract is as worthless as the PDF it’s coded on
Takata & car manufacturers were still liable for the replacement of faulty airbags long after the car’s warranty had expired

 

[Tam]

Let's say "smart" summon runs over a kid in a parking lot. If there is a lawsuit it will be against both the "driver" and Tesla. The kid didn't sign a contract with Tesla. I could see a jury siding with the kid but who knows.

U.S. guns' victims didn't sign a contract with gun industry.

Victims can sue the gun industry but so far, the legal system has honored the gun industry immunity, cases after cases.

 

[Daniel in SD]

U.S. guns' victims didn't sign a contract with gun industry.

Victims can sue the gun industry but so far, the legal system has honored the gun industry immunity, cases after cases.

Of course because a gun is a tool used to kill people. Similarly if a car is used as a weapon you can't hold the car company liable.
However if a car company implements a feature that is unsafe I would think the victim would have grounds to sue. I'm no lawyer though...

 

[Tam]

...car company implements a feature that is unsafe I would think the victim would have grounds to sue. I'm no lawyer though...

Tesla features are safe IF used as directed.

It's the same as 120V fan is safe IF used as directed. If I ignore the instructions and wire the fan to 240V line and the whole fan is burned up and the whole house is burned down...

Non-compliance to instructions can lead to unsafe results and that is well expected.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Tesla features are safe IF used as directed.

Well we haven't seen smart summon yet so who knows if it's safe. The description "your parked car will come find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really." sure doesn't sound safe! Unless they've made massive improvements over the self parking functionality.

 

[Nuclear Fusion]

Tesla features are safe IF used as directed.

It's the same as 120V fan is safe IF used as directed. If I ignore the instructions and wire the fan to 240V line and the whole fan is burned up and the whole house is burned down...

Non-compliance to instructions can lead to unsafe results and that is well expected.

False equivalence (of complexity)

 

[Tam]

... doesn't sound safe...

When the restaurant says "free chips", that doesn't sound free. That is the catch. It's free if do as instructed: pay up for an entree and get the chips free. If I don't do what's instructed, I won't get those free chips at all.

Same as Tesla features. They are safe if users follow instructions.

It is well known that using Tesla features without observing its instructions can be deadly. There has never been any doubt about it.

Just follow instructions and you are fine.

 

[Dana1]

You’re joking, right?

It was a simple analogy but here’s another if it makes you feel better...How to Avoid a Ship’s Blind Spot | Cruising Compass

 

[Knightshade]

Well we haven't seen smart summon yet so who knows if it's safe. The description "your parked car will come find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really." sure doesn't sound safe! Unless they've made massive improvements over the self parking functionality.

Based on the feedback from one early access poster here it sounds like it'll be incredibly safe.

SO safe that the feature will suck because the car will not only go incredibly slowly, it'll be massively over-cautious on the side of safety.


If the car only goes 3-5 mph there should be 0 cases where it hits anything, the ultrasonics alone can easily detect any object in enough time to stop the car, let alone the cameras and radar recognizing things further away.

 

[Economite]

Not for me.

The primary insurance owner is the responsible party...not the owner.

Actually... An insurer is only covering the liability of the insured.

So the driver/owner is still responsible for his liability to whomever the car hurts, but his insurance may defend him and may make a payment on his behalf to the injured if the insurance believes the accident is covered by the terms of its policy.

But if his insurance is inadequate for the claim, for example if he causes a $2M claim and he has a $500K policy, he still has to pay the excess.

And the fact that a driver/owner has insurance doesn't stop him, or his insurance, or the injured party from making a claim against Tesla.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Based on the feedback from one early access poster here it sounds like it'll be incredibly safe.

SO safe that the feature will suck because the car will not only go incredibly slowly, it'll be massively over-cautious on the side of safety.


If the car only goes 3-5 mph there should be 0 cases where it hits anything, the ultrasonics alone can easily detect any object in enough time to stop the car, let alone the cameras and radar recognizing things further away.

Because self park and summon never hit anything

 

[Economite]

Honestly, I don't think it's a danger but it's SLOW as f*ck and is stupid so I see a lot of people getting pissed at Tesla owners because of this.

I think people who use this feature in a parking lot to do anything other than pull their car in or out of a tight spot for a few feet (ie for anything other than what the current summons claims it can do) will quickly become about as well-loved as Google Glass users.

And if a driverless vehicle so much as taps someone in a parking lot, Tesla is going to get tons of bad press.

Existing AP misbehavior on highways (phantom stops, aborted lane changes, truck lust, taking exit lanes, etc) largely goes unnoticed by other drivers because they assume that the person in the front seat of the Tesla is just a crappy driver. When the new summons feature misbehaves, or is so tentative/slow as to frustrate others in the lot, it will be obvious that the problem is automation software, not operator error. Other drivers won't tolerate that.

 

[run-the-joules]

other than what the current summons

When the new summons

the definition of summon

the definition of summons

Different words. I know it's petty of me but my god it's driving me up the wall to see people calling it "summons"

 

[Economite]

Because self park and summon never hit anything

^^^ This

Also, when the existing versions of self-park and summons hit something, it is almost always either something on the Tesla owner's property or a concrete support beam in a parking structure.

When the new summons-from-half-a-football-field-away feature hits something, it will often be some random person's car, or some random person, or property that is far less indestructible than a concrete support beam. These random people and lot/structure owners will be far less accepting of these accidents than Tesla owners are of accidents that occur in their own home garages.

 

[Knightshade]

Because self park and summon never hit anything

AFAIK that's because the current/old versions of summon didn't use most of the sensors on the car.

The entire point of the "improved" version, mentioned for a while now, is that it'll actually use all the sensors, and thus see a lot more.

So that's not a very useful comparison.

A good example there would be how much blind spot detection AP offered using a single front camera and the ultrasonics with only a tiny bit of range... versus the current version that actually uses the other cameras. It's objectively a ton better than it used to be.... (though the notification system is still mediocre compared to many other cars- but that's not the systems fault, that's Tesla being too cheap to put an LED in the side mirrors)

 

[Garlan Garner]

Actually... An insurer is only covering the liability of the insured.

So the driver/owner is still responsible for his liability to whomever the car hurts, but his insurance may defend him and may make a payment on his behalf to the injured if the insurance believes the accident is covered by the terms of its policy.

But if his insurance is inadequate for the claim, for example if he causes a $2M claim and he has a $500K policy, he still has to pay the excess.

And the fact that a driver/owner has insurance doesn't stop him, or his insurance, or the injured party from making a claim against Tesla.

If there is a physical driver present - yes.

We aren't talking about a physical driver being present. right?

This is what I've learned.

In summon or autopilot....there is no physical driver present. My insurance company told me that the owner of the car is not the liable party when such a situation occurs such as this.

The person on the insurance policy is the liable party.

Right or Wrong..that's their answer.

I don't really care either way. Whatever suits your fancy is what you should go with.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

AFAIK that's because the current/old versions of summon didn't use most of the sensors on the car.

The entire point of the "improved" version, mentioned for a while now, is that it'll actually use all the sensors, and thus see a lot more.

I guess I should try it again. Last time I checked it refused to enter my garage with probably less than 9-10 inches on each side. Which I think was a stated limitation so I was not surprised.

Do you promise it won’t hit the garage door frame with my mirror?

However, even now there appear to be some limitations:

“Warning: Model 3 cannot detect obstacles that are located lower than the bumper, are very narrow (i.e. bicycles)...”

I’m sure these limitations will never cause any problems with advanced summon in a parking lot.

“Summon is unlikely to operate as intended in the following types of situations:
• The road is sloped. Summon is designed to operate on flat roads only.
• Summon has detected a raised concrete edge when moving forward into the parking location. Summon does not drive over an edge that is higher than approximately 1 in (2.5 cm).
• One or more of the ultrasonic sensors is damaged, dirty, or obstructed (such as by mud, ice, or snow).
• Weather conditions (heavy rain, snow, fog, or extremely hot or cold temperatures) are interfering with sensor operation.
• The sensors are affected by other electrical equipment or devices that generate ultrasonic waves.”

Maybe a lot of these limitations will be removed.

That last one will be interesting. I wonder how big a problem that actually will be.

I’m sure no one will try to use advanced summon in the pouring rain! Hopefully the default is to just stop the car in the parking lot. I anticipate some incidents of frustration exacted upon Teslas by other drivers.

 

[TT97]

I’m sure no one will try to use advanced summon in the pouring rain!

This is really the only situation I can imagine using summon. Wait under cover and let the car come to you. I can walk just fine when it is sunny.

The one time I did use the non-advanced summon at work was because it was raining hard. Our building is built above the parking lot with tandem spots with the outside spots past the envelope of the building so they are susceptible to the weather. To avoid getting wet, I stood underneath the building and used summon to bring the car forward towards me. Unfortunately, just as the car got next to me, the auto-wipers decided to activate and drenched me with all the water from the windshield.

 

[Knightshade]

I guess I should try it again. Last time I checked it refused to enter my garage with probably less than 9-10 inches on each side. Which I think was a stated limitation so I was not surprised.

Do you promise it won’t hit the garage door frame with my mirror?

However, even now there appear to be some limitations:

Even now- because the more advanced version of summon hasn't been released yet. (it was promised mid December 2018 originally, but Elon time and all, so March 15th is the new date)


That's the one that'll finally use all the sensors.

“Warning: Model 3 cannot detect obstacles that are located lower than the bumper, are very narrow (i.e. bicycles)...”

Right- because it's relying on the ultrasonics right now.

Maybe a lot of these limitations will be removed.

That last one will be interesting. I wonder how big a problem that actually will be.

I’m sure no one will try to use advanced summon in the pouring rain! Hopefully the default is to just stop the car in the parking lot. I anticipate some incidents of frustration exacted upon Teslas by other drivers.

Again, the cameras handle rain a lot better than the ultrasonics do- so yes I expect a lot of limitations will be relaxed or removed once it's using all of those in addition to the sonic stuff.

If the cameras can handle driving on a crowded highway at 80 mph in rain it can probably going 3 mph in a parking lot.

I do expect it will be very overly cautious and pretty much stop for EVERYTHING- so I can see stuff like a car getting in its way, the tesla stops... and then the other cars driver is confused because there's a tesla with no driver sitting there, so he sits there, and it's a comedy of errors delay-wise, but nobody hits anybody.

In summon or autopilot....there is no physical driver present. My insurance company told me that the owner of the car is not the liable party when such a situation occurs such as this.

The person on the insurance policy is the liable party.

Does your dad provide your car insurance or something?

In most cases the owner of the car is the person on the insurance policy...(I suppose where your companys answer gets weird is cases where multiple people are "on" the insurance, like a married couple).

but generally the person OPERATING the vehicle is the one liable in an at-fault accident- which would be the person USING summon.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

the current/old versions of summon didn't use most of the sensors on the car.

Sorry, wasn't reading carefully here, and latched onto "didn't" (past tense...probably should have been don't but whatever). And then did not notice the "current" statement. It was clear enough but I wasn't reading carefully.

Even now- because the more advanced version of summon hasn't been released yet. (it was promised mid December 2018 originally, but Elon time and all, so March 15th is the new date)

That's the one that'll finally use all the sensors.

I guess we'll see. Still, there are a lot of autopilot limitations with HW 2.x as well.

"Poor visibility (due to heavy rain, snow, fog, etc.).
• Bright light (due to oncoming headlights, direct sunlight, etc.).
• Damage or obstructions caused by mud, ice, snow, etc.
• Interference or obstruction by object(s) mounted onto the vehicle (such as a bike rack).
• A damaged or misaligned bumper.
• Interference from other equipment that generates ultrasonic waves.
• Extremely hot or cold temperatures."

In addition as far as capabilities go:
"Although Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is capable of detecting pedestrians and cyclists, never depend on Traffic-Aware Cruise Control to adequately slow Model 3 down for them"

(I read this to mean it can detect pedestrians and cyclists...most of the time. Which is not ideal without a fully aware driver in the driver seat.)

I guess we mostly agree that Advanced Summon will likely be a comedic exercise in some use scenarios.

But perhaps where we differ is that I think that Advanced Summon will probably sometimes hit things it doesn't see in parking lots in odd corner cases. And then it'll be a finger pointing exercise about whose fault it is: people will say the user was not following the instructions (they probably won't be), etc. (My view is that by enabling an unnecessary feature like this, Tesla accepts full moral responsibility for the damage that results (even when the user is misusing the feature), though of course they won't be liable legally because they'll have a lot of warnings in the Owner's Manual and on the screen before enabling advanced summon, and they'll have adequately warned the user about the limitations.)

Anyway, these mostly funny Summon incidents are mostly going to be the least of Tesla's liability exposure. FSD is where the real damage will take place and is interesting to things about how it will play out.