Solar Glass Snow Avalanches

[rhumbliner]

"Tesla solar roof: hazardous area, falling ice and glass, enter at your own risk."

This is not strictly a solar roof problem. You’re suggesting that folks who live in snow country and install metal roofs — copper, steel, or aluminum — should be required to put up similar signs to warn pedestrians. My aluminum roof sheds great piles of snow and I installed it so I don’t have to climb up and shovel snow in order to reduce the snow load. People here have a tendency to look up when they are walking thru someone’s yard.

 

[mswlogo]

This is not strictly a solar roof problem. You’re suggesting that folks who live in snow country and install metal roofs — copper, steel, or aluminum — should be required to put up similar signs to warn pedestrians. My aluminum roof sheds great piles of snow and I installed it so I don’t have to climb up and shovel snow in order to reduce the snow load. People here have a tendency to look up when they are walking thru someone’s yard.

I agree. I prefer it shed itself. Even if it comes down in lumps on occasion.

You can also nudge it if you are concerned and have yourself a controlled avalanch

 

[SMFS]

This isn't Tesla's problem, It's YOUR's. If you don't like it, then fix it.
Next you'll be mad that Tesla cars allow you to accelerate to quick.

I think you misread something I said. This is simply a warning that the roof, as suppled, will shed potentially fatal hunks of ice on people and animals, not about who is responsible for fixing it. It was certainly a surprise for me to see. They do offer snow hooks in some cases, which are still an option for me (so actually Tesla can and does fix this). The solution also has to be compatible with the roof system, you can't just screw a bunch of rods into the glass panels, and I'd prefer my house not look like a prison even if I could...

 

[holeydonut]

In snowy areas those with metal roofs also have this issue, and typically some type of snow retention device is added after the fact where there are walkways or areas of possible property damage. I have no idea of the legal requirements here but they must be known. Call a local roofer familiar with the local AHJ and ask about a metal roof you can get an answer I bet.

If the roofer in your had installed a metal roof without some additional protection over the walkways would this be different?

I 100% think Tesla needs to offer something with the initial roof installation to prevent this problem from hurting people. It is not a surprise, and while it may be a feature in some areas, it is not always so with ice storms.

I know that some buildings use an active electric heating system under the roof deck to melt the rooftop ice just during the storm, maybe this is possible? Cutting the ice up into smaller falls is also a possible solution.

Interestingly, there are no known building codes (residential or commercial) that require roofs in snowy areas to have guards/breaks that prevent snow and ice from sheeting off towards vehicles or pedestrian walk ways. Reading some of the threads about this on other forums, it seems like the general attitude is to blame the victim for being injured.

I think the main reason is there aren't enough injuries caused by this and insurance companies don't care. If the USA had dozens of children and pets dying each year from this, I think you'd see more traction for a code change. But for the time being, there are no AHJ guidelines for the actual parts to be installed or code defining the efficacy of the products being sold. So, there are a lot of products that claim to prevent falling ice and snow, but they could be doing nothing other than to make sales revenue for the manufacturer.

I think getting an umbrella policy to cover someone getting upset that they get concussed by falling snow is cheaper than adding some wacky stuff to the roof lol.

PS. Or... maybe instead of snow guards, people could just put a lot of bollards to keep visitors away from the house . Bollards + Disconnects solve everything.

 

[BGbreeder]

Hmmm, I can find a few refs;

Chapter 9 Roof Assemblies: Roof Assemblies, Iowa Residential Code 2015 | UpCodes

UpCodes offers a consolidated resource of construction and building code grouped by jurisdiction

up.codes

Don't Let Roof Snow and Ice Fall on Pedestrians

[site-name],[site-mission]

www.apartmentlawinsider.com

Beware of falling ice and snow

The building envelope’s fundamental purpose is to offer protection from the elements, providing comfort and safety to occupants within. However, in the quest for improved performance and innovation, additional roles and requirements have arisen.

www.constructionspecifier.com

There appears to be fairly well developed case law around the issue.

To your point, inspectopedia opines that there is no code for snow retention devices;

Snow Guard Building Codes & Standards for Snow Retention System & Snow Guards

inspectapedia.com

I would point out the long list of references therein about why snow retention devices are required...

Regardless of whether it is code, it was certainly widely believed in the snowy areas where I have lived to be the responsibility of the owner to make safe for pedestrians.

All the best,

BG

 

[holeydonut]

Hmmm, I can find a few refs;

Chapter 9 Roof Assemblies: Roof Assemblies, Iowa Residential Code 2015 | UpCodes

UpCodes offers a consolidated resource of construction and building code grouped by jurisdiction

up.codes

Don't Let Roof Snow and Ice Fall on Pedestrians

[site-name],[site-mission]

www.apartmentlawinsider.com

Beware of falling ice and snow

The building envelope’s fundamental purpose is to offer protection from the elements, providing comfort and safety to occupants within. However, in the quest for improved performance and innovation, additional roles and requirements have arisen.

www.constructionspecifier.com

There appears to be fairly well developed case law around the issue.

To your point, inspectopedia opines that there is no code for snow retention devices;

Snow Guard Building Codes & Standards for Snow Retention System & Snow Guards

inspectapedia.com

I would point out the long list of references therein about why snow retention devices are required...

Regardless of whether it is code, it was certainly widely believed in the snowy areas where I have lived to be the responsibility of the owner to make safe for pedestrians.

All the best,

BG

I don't think any of those references actually explain code requirements specific to the issue being discussed. One of your links even says "The mitigation of falling ice and snow during the design process is not a clearly defined building code requirement." Then they go on to cite an example of falling snow blocking an emergency escape route. So it's not the falling snow that is the problem, it is the blockage of the escape route that is the problem.

I guess we can try a thought exercise of "what would it require for a homeowner like @SMFS to have Tesla address this instead of coming out of pocket themselves to fix this new problem?"

Maybe a homeowner can have a fire marshal out to their house to see the aftermath of the roof avalanche. Maybe this AHJ/expert will see the snow has blocked the front door egress (escape hazard), and deems the home to be "unsafe." Then the homeowner could take this new determination back to Tesla (or it's subcontractor) and report that the architected, built, and finished design is unsafe. I'm kind of sure that in the bowels of the Tesla Solar Roof contract, there is language that says their solar roof product will be installed in accordance with building codes (which by extension must be "safe"). This could put the pressure on Tesla to have to come fix it and incur the costs to remedy.

Alternatively, I think the homeowner can stand outside marveling out their baller-azz solar roof. Then they take a 50 pounds ice block sliding off the baller-azz roof to the face. Have someone take pictures of the bloody mess and tweet Elon. Pretty sure that approach could work as well. But get some insurance first.

Regarding case law... yeah it's pretty clear homeowners are at risk if someone gets injured on their property. Tesla says the home is safe (for now)... they installed per code and the inspectors all signed off. So get some insurance man. Umbrellas for personal liability are pretty cheap. Worst case is the homeowner goes out of their way to have a fire marshal declare the house isn't safe... then someone gets smashed in the face with the block of ice and there is no insurance to cover the injury.

 

[garcianc]

...(so actually Tesla can and does fix this)...

Actually, they do not fix it and cannot recommend anyone who does, as stated in this email from them:

 

[BGbreeder]

Point Tesla energy back here and point out that they are fixing it elsewhere and see if you get a different answer. With Tesla, left hands often don't seem to know what rights are doing. Of course, it is always possible that Tesla has concluded that avalanches are a problem they can't, or won't, fix. In that case...

All the best,

BG

 

[SMFS]

Actually, they do not fix it and cannot recommend anyone who does, as stated in this email from them:

View attachment 783045

Interesting. At the time of install I asked them about snow hooks (having heard about someone else getting them) they said they could do it but advised against it, instead opting to let the snow accumulate to a maximum of 2 inches and sliding off. Maybe when push came to shove they would have said they wouldn't do it IDK.

 

[mountfield]

After originally being told (in Dec 21) snow mitigation for my solar roof was in design, and I should expect to hear from scheduling soon, this week I was told that there is no solution for solar roof and that any damage claims will be an item for homeowners insurance

I find this completely unacceptable from tesla and will no doubt now be forced to find a solution on my own (snoblox or sno-safe) - while most fluffy snow slides off no issue, if it's heavy / wet and then gets cold - it quickly turns to deathly slabs of dense snow/ice that come flying off the roof.

Tesla needs to reconsider there approach here - otherwise this is an unacceptable solution for many regions of the country

 

[garcianc]

I come back to this thread every once in a while to check if anyone has had any luck (my notifications don't always work for some reason).
I just wanted to take the opportunity to address the few posts that appear to suggest that the complaint some of us have is misdirected. I will speak for myself but I am not complaining to Tesla about the snow. I am complaining because there appears to be no acceptable Tesla-approved solution to my problem.
I have spoken with Tesla representatives in the past who told me that, if I go off on my own and install non-Tesla-approved snow mitigation devices, it could void the warranty on my solar roof.

So, if the only acceptable solution is one that needs to be Tesla-approved, then my problem can only be addressed by Tesla, and that is really my issue.
I will say again that I do recognize this as my problem that I am trying to fix, but a problem that depends on Tesla to be solved.

If this were a traditional metal roof, as others have pointed out, this problem would be trivial, as there are well-known and available solutions.

I kind of understand why Tesla is reluctant or taking their time. A previous poster posted a picture of a shattered Tesla roof tile after a chunk of ice fell from one roof slope to another. So, if I were Tesla, I would want an installer adding snow mitigation devices to be aware of the limitations of the tiles and carefully manage how the snow/ice would be shed from the roof. I just wish to have a solution before winter.

 

[ARKEBUS]

I posted in January that Tesla has agreed to install Snow Guards on my roof.

I apparently failed to post that they installed them Feb 14, at no charge.
They worked great this winter.

The person on the phone may not know that this service is available.
Instead, just open a service request for snow mitigation in the Tesla App.

In the Tesla app,
Go to the My Home page,
open the Support link,
open Request Service at the bottom.

 

[garcianc]

I posted in January that Tesla has agreed to install Snow Guards on my roof.

I apparently failed to post that they installed them Feb 14, at no charge.
They worked great this winter.

The person on the phone may not know that this service is available.
Instead, just open a service request for snow mitigation in the Tesla App.

In the Tesla app,
Go to the My Home page,
open the Support link,
open Request Service at the bottom.

Thanks but I wonder if that would apply to the solar roof tiles that I have.

 

[c1916]

Thanks but I wonder if that would apply to the solar roof tiles that I have.

They do not because they wouldn't work the same way on a solar roof. I don't believe they have a solution yet for those problems on a solar roof.

FWIW, I had an ice avalanche from my upper roof to my lower roof during my installation this past winter. Shattered a bunch of tiles on the lower roof. They came out next day and repaired, but I'm nowhere near as confident about that prompt service next winter. I very much am in the market for a "fix" for a solar tile roof but it doesn't yet exist (according to my advisor).

 

[phsoccer]

I live in North Texas and we have at least one ice storm a year with 1.5 to 2 inches of solid ice (not snow). It comes crashing down and shakes the whole house. My question is how to I install gutters? I asked the local gutter installer I trust and they didn't want to install gutters because if would probably get ripped off when the ice slides off. I don't see where anyone has actually had their gutters ripped off of the side of the house. Has this happened to anyone?

 

[BGbreeder]

I live in North Texas and we have at least one ice storm a year with 1.5 to 2 inches of solid ice (not snow). It comes crashing down and shakes the whole house. My question is how to I install gutters? I asked the local gutter installer I trust and they didn't want to install gutters because if would probably get ripped off when the ice slides off. I don't see where anyone has actually had their gutters ripped off of the side of the house. Has this happened to anyone?

It has been reported; you might try using Google to search for it. Can I suggest redesigning the landscaping and drainage to not need gutters? (I'm not a fan of gutters for a variety of reasons.)

Alternatively, drop the gutter so it is lower on the fascia, so ice will miss it, which may mean that you need a larger gutter, or be ok with heavy rain not making it into the gutters. Or install heat tape on the roof to melt the ice as it gets toward the bottom 6-10' of the roof. Or just plan to replace your gutters periodically...

I would ask around for folks with standing seam metal roofs to see what might work locally.

All the best,

BG

 

[phsoccer]

It has been reported; you might try using Google to search for it. Can I suggest redesigning the landscaping and drainage to not need gutters? (I'm not a fan of gutters for a variety of reasons.)

Alternatively, drop the gutter so it is lower on the fascia, so ice will miss it, which may mean that you need a larger gutter, or be ok with heavy rain not making it into the gutters. Or install heat tape on the roof to melt the ice as it gets toward the bottom 6-10' of the roof. Or just plan to replace your gutters periodically...

I would ask around for folks with standing seam metal roofs to see what might work locally.

All the best,

BG

I’ve reached out to our local Tesla Roof installer, Good Faith Energy, to see if they have a gutter installer they would recommend. I’m ok with larger gutters hung lower. I’m also wondering if a gutter guard system would help to send the ice over the gutters rather than in them. I already have a pipe system to funnel the water to the street after it goes into the gutters. Right now, the water is coming off so fast that it is digging a trench around my house. When it rains here, which is not all that often, it might rain 4-6” an hour, so it is a lot.

This ice problem happens only once a year and then next day it would probably be 70F, but it does happen like clockwork here In the last few years.

 

[jhn_]

Here in the northeast we shed ice a snow five months of the year. Gutters are just placed lower out of the glide trajectory for solids from the roof where as the liquid drops down straighter sooner. But yes, gutters can and do get ripped off if not installed out of the path of slides.

 

[BGbreeder]

@phsoccer A smooth roof exacerbates many precipitation issues; rain, snow, ice. It would be great if there were more solutions from Tesla, or from third parties for Tesla roofs, but it is what is. 1.5-2" thick ice is heavy, and a damaging, if not lethal, force.

Good luck with your installer.

All the best,

BG

 

[phsoccer]

Here in the northeast we shed ice a snow five months of the year. Gutters are just placed lower out of the glide trajectory for solids from the roof where as the liquid drops down straighter sooner. But yes, gutters can and do get ripped off if not installed out of the path of slides.

Thanks, I sent your comment to the gutter company and I'm waiting for their response about lowering the gutters. You would think they would be used to this issue with the number of smooth metal roofs that they install and the ice storms that we get every year.