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Solar Panels UK - is it worth it?
- Thread starter jdwuk
- Start date
ACarneiro
Active Member
I don’t think it does, actually.
Plenty of potential but very little offshore wind generation actually deployed.
Solar and wind are a good combination, especially in a country like Portugal where both are fairly abundant.
Agree. Also - why are solar panels reduced to ‘whats the payback period’ when cars aren’t, when houses aren’t. you want to put the most possible into an investment plan, buy a 15 year old £100 banger, move to scotland and live in a tin shed.
Obvious hyperbole for effect but we don’t buy things just for practicality - or when we do that practicality isn’t just measured in ROI. As you say, I’d quite like to protect myself better from future volatility in energy prices. I‘d also like to reduce my carbon emissions. Perhaps also set an example to my kids so they might think about this kind of thing from the start.
Initially, I saw my panels as an “investment”.
Time has moved on and we are are in deep sh*t with climate change.
at 69 and in my forever home, I don’t care about RoI or cost justification, if I did, I wouldn’t have a £60K electric car to pootle about in.
It’s now about doing my bit to help stave off climate change. That it’s saving some money along the way is a bonus!
Will the climate change battle be won? Not a prayer. There is too much greed and corruption in this world. Whatever is done will be too little too late.
Time has moved on and we are are in deep sh*t with climate change.
at 69 and in my forever home, I don’t care about RoI or cost justification, if I did, I wouldn’t have a £60K electric car to pootle about in.
It’s now about doing my bit to help stave off climate change. That it’s saving some money along the way is a bonus!
Will the climate change battle be won? Not a prayer. There is too much greed and corruption in this world. Whatever is done will be too little too late.
RedMod3
Member
My 3kW array (3.7kW inverter) has peaked out at just 3.3kW today because the panels have got so hot in the sun, but overall, I'm still generating 4.4kW; my Tesla is being charged at 2kW, my PW at 0.8kW (now 92% full) and the Boss's casserole is being slow cooked for free for this evening.
This is why I faff with solar panels, it makes me feel good, and I'm saving much money and the planet.
This is why I faff with solar panels, it makes me feel good, and I'm saving much money and the planet.
RedMod3
Member
I'm in a similar position to you Dilly, in my forever home. I did do ROI calculations for the PW and extra panels, and the project makes sense. But like, you, in our forever home, it's great to invest in technology for the greater benefit and have fun.
Here’s current status, vacuum cleaner just came on.
Attachments
Stuart Watson
Member
Well you, presumably, have a responsibility not to waste your families money !My maths don't work for that (but I dunno what Vangaurd yield is).
I have two choices:
- I make an investment in something, then withdraw the "interest" received to pay my electricity bill each year
... and likely have to pay tax on that withdrawal- I invest in Solar panels, and that reduces my electricity bill
If Capital = €9K, PV saving on electricity bill (this year) is €600, then the investment must make at least 7% (i.e. after tax) to pay the €600 electricity bill.
- Electricity bill will most likely increase over time (lets say in line with inflation)
- If I withdraw the interest from my investment then the capital amount stays the same, so my "interest" is fixed. (If interest exceeds electricity bill then I can reinvest that)
Assuming inflation never exceeds 3% for 20 years
So basically inflation has got to stay under 3% and investment has got to do better than 9%, every year, to break even in 20 years
And that is assuming that there is no tax to pay on the [withdrawal off the] income from the investment.
If electricity price goes up unexpectedly for any reason, as at present, then unless the investment is similarly spectacular that year, then PV is going to win.
My view is that:
If likely to sell the house "soon" then PV is a hard decision to make
If approaching retirement then locking in PV-pays-for-X%-of electricity-usage - "forever" - works
Portugal (like UK) has great off-shore wind generation.
I do wonder if the Eco-credentials of "Every house installs PV panels" is better/worse for the planet then "Economy of scale off-shore grid-generation from Wind".
I expect there are some benefits from my PV exporting and supporting the grid locally ...
... but if I just plug into the grid, and the grid becomes greener-and-greener over time, I get the benefit of that improvement without doing anything.
... but I am susceptible to unexpected price increases - e.g. the cost of the Nuclear "background" that UK has chosen to install, and perhaps the capital cost of grid installing batteries in the future.
If I get a car, in a few years time, with a battery which can discharge to run my house, then I will be able to "store" electricity from off-short wind, when it is at its cheapest, and run the house during the time when electricity consumption is high / expensive
Without being rude… you need to get up to speed with these issues.
S&P actually dates back to the 1920s, becoming a composite index tracking 90 stocks in 1926.
The average annualized return since its inception in 1926 through Dec. 31, 2021, is 10.49%.
Well sadly, I filled the Tesla and Outlander yesterday from the afternoon sunshine. Today, the water’s hot, the Powerwalls are full already, the vacuuming isdone and the Sunday Roast is scrubbed in favour of a picnic. Hence we’re dumping what the main panels are producing and the secondaries have gone back to sleep!
My stats look a bit sad.
Stuart Watson
Member
“So basically inflation has got to stay under 3% and investment has got to do better than 9%, every year, to break even in 20 years”My maths don't work for that (but I dunno what Vangaurd yield is).
I have two choices:
- I make an investment in something, then withdraw the "interest" received to pay my electricity bill each year
... and likely have to pay tax on that withdrawal- I invest in Solar panels, and that reduces my electricity bill
If Capital = €9K, PV saving on electricity bill (this year) is €600, then the investment must make at least 7% (i.e. after tax) to pay the €600 electricity bill.
- Electricity bill will most likely increase over time (lets say in line with inflation)
- If I withdraw the interest from my investment then the capital amount stays the same, so my "interest" is fixed. (If interest exceeds electricity bill then I can reinvest that)
Assuming inflation never exceeds 3% for 20 years
So basically inflation has got to stay under 3% and investment has got to do better than 9%, every year, to break even in 20 years
And that is assuming that there is no tax to pay on the [withdrawal off the] income from the investment.
If electricity price goes up unexpectedly for any reason, as at present, then unless the investment is similarly spectacular that year, then PV is going to win.
My view is that:
If likely to sell the house "soon" then PV is a hard decision to make
If approaching retirement then locking in PV-pays-for-X%-of electricity-usage - "forever" - works
Portugal (like UK) has great off-shore wind generation.
I do wonder if the Eco-credentials of "Every house installs PV panels" is better/worse for the planet then "Economy of scale off-shore grid-generation from Wind".
I expect there are some benefits from my PV exporting and supporting the grid locally ...
... but if I just plug into the grid, and the grid becomes greener-and-greener over time, I get the benefit of that improvement without doing anything.
... but I am susceptible to unexpected price increases - e.g. the cost of the Nuclear "background" that UK has chosen to install, and perhaps the capital cost of grid installing batteries in the future.
If I get a car, in a few years time, with a battery which can discharge to run my house, then I will be able to "store" electricity from off-short wind, when it is at its cheapest, and run the house during the time when electricity consumption is high / expensive
Well that’s what history tells us they have done !
End of argument
RedMod3
Member
I would seriously be crying if I was giving the grid 6.2kW. I resent giving the grid more that 1kW a day!
Stuart Watson
Member
Hello Dily, thanks for participating…
I’m very curious though … what did your PV cost?
Genuine question… how would you have fared if you had popped the money in a decent fund?
I’m prepared to accept my thinking is wrong… if anyone has any evidence !
I’m very curious though … what did your PV cost?
Genuine question… how would you have fared if you had popped the money in a decent fund?
I’m prepared to accept my thinking is wrong… if anyone has any evidence !
ACarneiro
Active Member
I don’t think anyone is disputing the accuracy of your thinking.Hello Dily, thanks for participating…
I’m very curious though … what did your PV cost?
Genuine question… how would you have fared if you had popped the money in a decent fund?
I’m prepared to accept my thinking is wrong… if anyone has any evidence !
It’s just that some of us are not that bothered by the ROI as such, and therefore your assertions that “we have a responsibility of not wasting family money” are simply your point of view. It is not unreasonable for a different family to decide to invest in energy security or reduced emissions, even if that ends up costing money.
I installed my system with no expectation of monetary gain (especially when you factor in two Powerwalls). It may well break even, or it may actually make a modest ROI if energy prices remain high or go even higher (which seems likely short-term but less likely in the longer term).
I’m afraid the short answer is that I already had all the income I needed when I retired at the age of 45. Cost was circa £25K. The panels and Powerwalls and indeed, the Tesla, were bought with ‘fun’ money.Hello Dily, thanks for participating…
I’m very curious though … what did your PV cost?
Genuine question… how would you have fared if you had popped the money in a decent fund?
I’m prepared to accept my thinking is wrong… if anyone has any evidence !
the main panels benefit from feed in tariff for the next 20 years. My income and savings from my setup equates to 4%pa of cost. However that’s before I factor in running a tesla which has cost less than £50 in the 26 months I’ve had it. The Hyundai before it cost £71 over the 18 months I had that.
I just happen to be in a fortunate position and I’m happy not to be the richest guy in the graveyard
RedMod3
Member
Oh dear, well now my PW is full, the hot water tank is full and very hot, and in an hour my Tesla will be full. I may be able to squeeze a few more kWh into our Smart car before that is full; tears will be shed tomorrow though.You’d be drowning in your tears. I’m at 16kWh export and counting today! Even the pyroclastic oven doesn’t need cleaning!
long drive for a picnic and washing day tomorrow. I’ll be keeping the power in house.
PITA
Model 3 Performance
Hello Dily, thanks for participating…
I’m very curious though … what did your PV cost?
Genuine question… how would you have fared if you had popped the money in a decent fund?
I’m prepared to accept my thinking is wrong… if anyone has any evidence !
I'm 55 years old... I've been through the 1970's blackouts, Strikes, Recessions, Depressions, Pandemic, Stock Market Crashes, Pension Fund Fraud, Inflation, Interest Rates at 17%, Negative Equity, Divorce & Settlements, all sorts.
After all that *sugar*... I like my Solar Panels & battery storage thanks. I can see them, they're paid for, and it gives me some independence to cut off the outside world if I want to.
Money in the bank feeds your ego.
Solar Panels on the roof feeds your home.
PITA
Model 3 Performance
Oh dear, well now my PW is full, the hot water tank is full and very hot, and in an hour my Tesla will be full. I may be able to squeeze a few more kWh into our Smart car before that is full; tears will be shed tomorrow though.
Call me... I'll bring my Tesla over for some free juice
Tesla Party at your house
RedMod3
Member
It is @Dilly that has 6kW spare that he is donating to the Grid. Besides, I won't have enough spare power for your return trip. But, next month, I'll be driving to Scotland and using a supercharger for the first time, but I may call in off the M40/M6 for some free electrical juice.Call me... I'll bring my Tesla over for some free juice
Tesla Party at your house
Yep, situation unchanged. Still 3.2 going in the grid now. If the secondary panels were alight it would be nearer 6 Now and 10 earlier.It is @Dilly that has 6kW spare that he is donating to the Grid. Besides, I won't have enough spare power for your return trip. But, next month, I'll be driving to Scotland and using a supercharger for the first time, but I may call in off the M40/M6 for some free electrical juice.
I’ll use the Tesla tomorrow and run the aircon and give it some welly! I might get use some up.
throughput is over 40kWh already!
I think even my neighbour’s wind turbines are running backwards
EDIT
thank heavens my iPad needs charging
And seriously, if anyone is ever is stuck for juice in Norfolk, PM me. I have a type 1 and a type 2 charger.
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