Solar Panels UK - is it worth it?

[RedMod3]

We also have a MVHR System in which I insert a "summer block" in summer to stop the MVHR system from increasing the inside temperature in summer. In Winter, it raised the incoming outside air temperature by 4C. The MVHR gives our bungalow fresh clean filtered air and eliminates all condensation - we never open a window in either summer or winter in our bungalow that was built in 1989.

For 2,000sq ft living, 500sq ft garage.

Cost of energy: £910
FIT Repayments: £1091

Gross Profit: £181

I've excluded Govt energy contributions, Octopus savings and pensioners heating allowance of £500.

We have no other heating methods, so no oil or gas and the electricity costs include charging our two EVs. Our EPC just missed an A. We were maked down for using an immersion heater (powered by solar in the summer) and air-air heat pump programmable thermostats - completely absurd.

Houses can be energy efficient!

 

[ringi]

Are you well enough insulated that you cuold AirCon-cool the bedrooms during the day (i.e. from PV) and not run it (or run it "less") on Off Peak overnight?

Unless your bedroom(s) are West facing ...

Why as Octopus pays more for PV export then overnight electricity cost?

 

[ACarneiro]

I have MVHR and we rarely open a window - that just lets in the flies (and bats / birds!), pollen and heat (summer) / cold (winter). Add to that the constant middle-range relative humidity - hanging washing dries faster, no moulds in winter (nor condensation inside windows), no winter coughs / colds, great for folk with respiratory ailments like Asthma. But the diameter of pipes for a retro fit is a challenge ... blinking builders putting up New Builds should be putting MVHR in as standard ... and PV on the roof, and an EV charger ... I whinge more and more like my Dad did when he was my age!

Be interested to hear what you think, once your installation is all done Best retro-fit we did to the old part of the house.

I bought a new build off plan from Taylor Whimpey. Its build quality is.... average at best.
Anyway, as I had essentially bought it before it was built I asked if I could get underfloor heating, heat pump and MVHR fitted ruing the build, as it would be easier to do it then.
Obviously I would sort out all the costs and teams to come do it.

Computer says no.

I sort of see their point ("it's not your house until we've finished it and actually sold it to you") but I'm still incredibly frustrated that I would have to now spend far more money getting those systems retrofitted.

I guess I'll have to wait for when I retire and build my own place back in Portugal.... (assuming my pension will still be honoured by then...)

 

[randompixel]

I bought a new build off plan from Taylor Whimpey. Its build quality is.... average at best.
Anyway, as I had essentially bought it before it was built I asked if I could get underfloor heating, heat pump and MVHR fitted ruing the build, as it would be easier to do it then.
Obviously I would sort out all the costs and teams to come do it.

Computer says no.

I sort of see their point ("it's not your house until we've finished it and actually sold it to you") but I'm still incredibly frustrated that I would have to now spend far more money getting those systems retrofitted.

I guess I'll have to wait for when I retire and build my own place back in Portugal.... (assuming my pension will still be honoured by then...)

All new builders are the same. If they put something in before exchange they'll be responsible for it under the warranty. They never deviate from spec unless from an approved options list.

 

[ACarneiro]

All new builders are the same. If they put something in before exchange they'll be responsible for it under the warranty. They never deviate from spec unless from an approved options list.

Yes, I understand that.
"They'll be responsible for it under warranty" would, I suspect, depend on what is says on the contract you sign.
But I also understand that they would lack the bandwidth to deal with individualised requests. They want to put as many just-about-passable houses up as quickly and cheaply as possible and if you really want something different then you'll have to build your own bespoke home.
It's still frustrating, though.

 

[WannabeOwner]

We also have a MVHR System in which I insert a "summer block" in summer to stop the MVHR system from increasing the inside temperature in summer.

Not sure if same thing? but my MVHR has "bypass" for Summer ... if house temperature ABOVE xC and outside BELOW yC then it just pushes the, colder, outside air in (without heat exchanger)

I asked if I could get underfloor heating, heat pump and MVHR fitted ruing the build, as it would be easier to do it then.

Should be standard on new build IMHO ... but.

 

[ACarneiro]

Should be standard on new build IMHO ... but.

Change costs money.
The building industry is mostly dinosaurs who will only change, kicking and screaming, either to save money or of they're compelled to do so....

 

[thewishy]

End of the day the housebuilders will "price to the market". That basically means that they'll aim for that max you can have on a mortgage, and a shared ownership scheme if that falls short.
PVs are extra cost, and while economical in the long run, the housebuilders won't necessarily recover the extra. It's also not a great time for the new homeowner to make medium-long term investments, and there are some who think PV looks ugly.

 

[GlynG]

Maybe its just the cynic in me but if something sounds too good to be true then usually it is. I refer to these latest schemes whereby you charge your battery for a few pence per Kwhr and sell it back to the grid at a much higher price as load balancing is taking place --- and everyone will get rich, have free electricity and utopia is achieved. It all sounds like the crypto scam - If someone is earning lots then someone is paying for it.

I start my thinking and assumptions from the viewpoint that, 1)- that no business person can make millions by being fair and nice - its all buy it cheap and flog for as much as you can get away with. 2)- Energy companies like any other company intend to achieve a bigger profit every year, 3)- Government and all MPS are completely dishonest, self centred and have no intention of letting the average person make money unless they get their share of the cake. 4)- Government are skilled in subterfuge, long term planning, semantics and are able to manipulate the electorate quite easily.

The energy prices have created quite a boom for the PV industry not only with solar panels but home storage batteries, something that was needed after they went into decline when the FIT scheme was abolished in 2019. Battery sales are undoubtedly going to go through the roof (no pun intended) after Feb when the VAT is removed, the demand for home batteries will push the price up and the taxman will benefit from all the increases in corporation tax, income tax, spending that money and return of VAT etc as millions are going to be made. It is accepted that having home batteries even without Solar panels will be a nice little earner because you can buy the energy in cheap and sell it at peak times at a much higher rate back to the grid.

However I suspect this is going to be a very short term benefit and all part of the drive to have everyone on smart meters.

Bear in mind Solar farms are coming online every month, thousands of panels feeding the grid and EV charging hubs.

There is no way in the long term the practice of buying cheap energy in and selling back at a profit to the energy companies will continue, they just aren't going to let you make at their expense, I do understand the grid balancing theories, lots of domestic batteries all registered with a business, the grid needing more power at peak times and rather than bring online perhaps another power station they do a deal with the company and the home batteries all discharge their energy to balance out the grid demands - a win for everyone.

However, grid balancing and payment require a smart meter - all part of the deal. The government and the energy sector are doing everything they can to force Smart Meters on everyone, this is their latest ruse - get people to voluntarily ask for a smart meter - let them earn easy money - lambs to the slaughter.

The grid demands can be managed much better if everyone has a smart meter, because people are creatures of habit, the energy demands are predictable as in quantity required and duration.
With all on a smart meter demand will be managed by price, If you want to eat your dinner between 1600hrs and 1900hrs for instance they will raise the cost per Kwhr to the point people wont pay it, there wont be a limit to the price either, the only restricting factor will be matching the generation to the consumption and therefore they wont need all those millions of domestic batteries to step in and supply the grid and paying people to help them. If they need to buy in additional energy they will have deals with solar farms as the economy of scale will be beneficial to them, a solar farm which has invested many many millions will supply cheaper than millions of domestic batteries being offered to the grid by a company that didn't have to bear the cost of all these batteries - the solar farm will have to sell cheaper to retain a viable business - so all home battery owners making lots of money will cease.

I have solar, FIT and home batteries, I don't know if you give up your FIT exports and engage with SEG if you retain the option to go back to FIT when the SEG ends or becomes less generous.
I bought my system to save money, happy with FIT and have 15 years left to run. but I will resist for as long as I can the Smart Meters, I know I cant win but I'm not going to make it easy for them.

 

[GRiLLA]

End of the day the housebuilders will "price to the market". That basically means that they'll aim for that max you can have on a mortgage, and a shared ownership scheme if that falls short.
PVs are extra cost, and while economical in the long run, the housebuilders won't necessarily recover the extra. It's also not a great time for the new homeowner to make medium-long term investments, and there are some who think PV looks ugly.

Many new development have some PV, it helps them through the planning process I assume.

There's a small development near me with PV, but frankly it would perhaps be better if they didn't bother. They've fitted panels integrated with the roofing, but so few panels it'll generate nothing like enough, for example one 4 bed has 2 panels pointing just north of east, another has 5 south facing, but straight into a huge tree. It'll be a PITA for anyone to add more as unless they are also integrated it'll be too odd looking.

It should be a planning regulation that all new houses have unobstructed south facing roofs of a suitable pitch.

 

[thewishy]

Many new development have some PV, it helps them through the planning process I assume.

There's a small development near me with PV, but frankly it would perhaps be better if they didn't bother. They've fitted panels integrated with the roofing, but so few panels it'll generate nothing like enough, for example one 4 bed has 2 panels pointing just north of east, another has 5 south facing, but straight into a huge tree. It'll be a PITA for anyone to add more as unless they are also integrated it'll be too odd looking.

It should be a planning regulation that all new houses have unobstructed south facing roofs of a suitable pitch.

I've seen some which basically face anywhere but the main road through the new build, presumably to avoid the "PV looks ugly" brigade. Certainly when a housebuilder puts them in, they're looking to minimise cost not maximise payback...

 

[Mrklaw]

Maybe its just the cynic in me but if something sounds too good to be true then usually it is. I refer to these latest schemes whereby you charge your battery for a few pence per Kwhr and sell it back to the grid at a much higher price as load balancing is taking place --- and everyone will get rich, have free electricity and utopia is achieved. It all sounds like the crypto scam - If someone is earning lots then someone is paying for it.

I start my thinking and assumptions from the viewpoint that, 1)- that no business person can make millions by being fair and nice - its all buy it cheap and flog for as much as you can get away with. 2)- Energy companies like any other company intend to achieve a bigger profit every year, 3)- Government and all MPS are completely dishonest, self centred and have no intention of letting the average person make money unless they get their share of the cake. 4)- Government are skilled in subterfuge, long term planning, semantics and are able to manipulate the electorate quite easily.

The energy prices have created quite a boom for the PV industry not only with solar panels but home storage batteries, something that was needed after they went into decline when the FIT scheme was abolished in 2019. Battery sales are undoubtedly going to go through the roof (no pun intended) after Feb when the VAT is removed, the demand for home batteries will push the price up and the taxman will benefit from all the increases in corporation tax, income tax, spending that money and return of VAT etc as millions are going to be made. It is accepted that having home batteries even without Solar panels will be a nice little earner because you can buy the energy in cheap and sell it at peak times at a much higher rate back to the grid.

However I suspect this is going to be a very short term benefit and all part of the drive to have everyone on smart meters.

Bear in mind Solar farms are coming online every month, thousands of panels feeding the grid and EV charging hubs.

There is no way in the long term the practice of buying cheap energy in and selling back at a profit to the energy companies will continue, they just aren't going to let you make at their expense, I do understand the grid balancing theories, lots of domestic batteries all registered with a business, the grid needing more power at peak times and rather than bring online perhaps another power station they do a deal with the company and the home batteries all discharge their energy to balance out the grid demands - a win for everyone.

However, grid balancing and payment require a smart meter - all part of the deal. The government and the energy sector are doing everything they can to force Smart Meters on everyone, this is their latest ruse - get people to voluntarily ask for a smart meter - let them earn easy money - lambs to the slaughter.

The grid demands can be managed much better if everyone has a smart meter, because people are creatures of habit, the energy demands are predictable as in quantity required and duration.
With all on a smart meter demand will be managed by price, If you want to eat your dinner between 1600hrs and 1900hrs for instance they will raise the cost per Kwhr to the point people wont pay it, there wont be a limit to the price either, the only restricting factor will be matching the generation to the consumption and therefore they wont need all those millions of domestic batteries to step in and supply the grid and paying people to help them. If they need to buy in additional energy they will have deals with solar farms as the economy of scale will be beneficial to them, a solar farm which has invested many many millions will supply cheaper than millions of domestic batteries being offered to the grid by a company that didn't have to bear the cost of all these batteries - the solar farm will have to sell cheaper to retain a viable business - so all home battery owners making lots of money will cease.

I have solar, FIT and home batteries, I don't know if you give up your FIT exports and engage with SEG if you retain the option to go back to FIT when the SEG ends or becomes less generous.
I bought my system to save money, happy with FIT and have 15 years left to run. but I will resist for as long as I can the Smart Meters, I know I cant win but I'm not going to make it easy for them.

I really don't understand the fuss about smart meters. Yes I guess it allows for more control but only if you sign up for a scheme which requires it. For now it seems a reasonable trade for opening doors to more flexible tariffs and also giving us better visibility of the energy we use.

You can keep your core FIT generation payments *and* move to SEG - you only have to give up the deemed export part, which may make sense if you can get on savings sessions and 15p export rates but will depend how much you self consume.

Yes they're not in it out of the goodness of their heart. Ultimately while we go 'ooh £3 a kwh' on the other side they're bidding for £5/kwh equivalent so they're covering their costs and potentially making a profit too. But *also* paying the grid less than some of the peaker plants would have been paid without the energy saving sessions. And results in lower CO2 as the alternative woudl likely have been a gas power station kicking in. So yes someone is always getting their slice, it'd be naive to assume otherwise. But it does feel like a win/win/win at least for now.

We've seen in the real savings sessions offsetting equivalent to a decently large power station for that 1 hour period. That can be a useful tool in the kit IMO. Eventually they'll want that to be automatic (like my givenergy scheme that sets the battery discharge for me, or like Octopus intelligent flux) but again if you go in eyes open that isn't necessarily a bad thing and can give energy suppliers more confidence about what they can bid for in terms of peak shaving etc.

 

[phil4]

End of the day the housebuilders will "price to the market". That basically means that they'll aim for that max you can have on a mortgage, and a shared ownership scheme if that falls short.
PVs are extra cost, and while economical in the long run, the housebuilders won't necessarily recover the extra. It's also not a great time for the new homeowner to make medium-long term investments, and there are some who think PV looks ugly.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The developer will sell the house at the absolute max they can. So as there's a limit, any extra costs are the developers, not the customers.

 

[Mrklaw]

whats the delta cost if you build into the roof and therefore save tiles? maybe not that huge.

while they build to a price, they also build to the minimum technical requirements by law so if you included requirements for PV they'd include them and adjust prices as appropriate.

If you build energy efficient from the design stage onwards, and scale up like the big guys do, I would put money on it normalising costs to a large degree and not being that much more expensive

 

[thewishy]

while they build to a price, they also build to the minimum technical requirements by law so if you included requirements for PV they'd include them and adjust prices as appropriate.

Given the current government threw the new build heatpump mandate out of the window, I doubt we're going to get a PV mandate any time soon...

 

[KennethS]

I have solar, FIT and home batteries, I don't know if you give up your FIT exports and engage with SEG if you retain the option to go back to FIT when the SEG ends or becomes less generous.

My understanding is the election to give up the deemed export portion of the FiT scheme is permanent. I have given mine up and did it on the assumption it was irreversible.

 

[ringi]

whats the delta cost if you build into the roof and therefore save tiles? maybe not that huge

Standard concrete tiles are cheaper then the mounting systems for inroof PV, so inroof can be most costly then overroof even on a new build with many homes being done.

But if slate etc is required due to area the inroof can be cheaper then the slates.

 

[RedMod3]

Not sure if same thing? but my MVHR has "bypass" for Summer ... if house temperature ABOVE xC and outside BELOW yC then it just pushes the, colder, outside air in (without heat exchanger)



Should be standard on new build IMHO ... but.

Yes, agreed your bypass is the same as mine. I manually switch the blocks over and clean the heat-exchanger over the summer period ready for it to go back in the autumn.

Since we are not using any water to heat our place, I would not want underfloor heating - prefer the air-air heatpump, but good point.

 

[RedMod3]

My understanding is the election to give up the deemed export portion of the FiT scheme is permanent. I have given mine up and did it on the assumption it was irreversible.

Yes, that is my understanding. I have kept my FIT as although I produce a surplus in summer, the surplus goes into our batteries and cars. I give very very little to the grid, and far less in value at Octopus good SEG rates than I receive from FIT.

 

[RedMod3]

Here are some statistics from my Octopus contract since October 2021. Since my bills have not been calendar monthly, I have d/l all my smart meter readings into an Access database and linked them to a table with my tariffs so I can calculate the bills by month, and they tie up to the penny with the Octopus Billing, so Octopus have got it right.

There are over 38,000 records in the readings database. Notice how even with higher unit costs for power in 2023, our bills have gone down with us paying just over £900 for the year (incl EV charging). This is the effect of solar and Powerwalls - they have saved us a fortune. Values include VAT.


Peak and Off Peak by MonthPeak and Off Peak by Month

Expr1000	Expr1001	Consumpti	Peak_kWh	OffPeak_kWh	Peak_CostiV	OffPeak_CostiV	Day_Cost	TotalCost	Count
2021​	10​	574.309​	407.71​	166.6​	63.56​	8.33​	71.89​	75.29​	653​
2021​	11​	1694.309​	1158.79​	535.52​	180.65​	26.78​	207.43​	214.93​	1440​
2021​	12​	1937.809​	1362.3​	575.51​	212.38​	28.78​	241.16​	248.91​	1488​
2022​	1​	2023.723​	1454.79​	568.93​	226.8​	28.45​	255.25​	263​	1488​
2022​	2​	1575.455​	1057.97​	517.48​	164.94​	25.87​	190.81​	197.81​	1344​
2022​	3​	1273.56​	648.68​	624.88​	101.13​	31.24​	132.37​	140.11​	1486​
2022​	4​	891.924​	144.55​	747.37​	22.54​	37.37​	59.91​	67.41​	1440​
2022​	5​	693.537​	62.35​	631.19​	9.72​	31.56​	41.28​	49.03​	1488​
2022​	6​	441.806​	38.57​	403.24​	6.01​	20.16​	26.17​	33.67​	1440​
2022​	7​	747.588​	0.84​	746.75​	0.13​	37.34​	37.47​	45.22​	1488​
2022​	8​	797.059​	1.34​	795.72​	0.21​	39.79​	40​	47.75​	1488​
2022​	9​	825.307​	10.35​	814.96​	1.61​	40.75​	42.36​	49.86​	1440​
2022​	10​	904.94​	2.24​	902.7​	0.35​	45.14​	45.49​	53.25​	1489​
2022​	11​	1125.531​	50.68​	1074.85​	7.9​	53.74​	61.64​	69.14​	1440​
2022​	12​	1741.754​	465.32​	1276.43​	72.54​	63.82​	136.36​	144.11​	1488​
2023​	1​	1795.86​	447.84​	1348.02​	69.82​	67.4​	137.22​	144.97​	1488​
2023​	2​	1365.085​	187.92​	1177.16​	29.3​	58.86​	88.16​	95.16​	1344​
2023​	3​	1272.27​	17.84​	1254.43​	2.98​	125.44​	128.42​	138.65​	1486​
2023​	4​	350.856​	2.99​	347.87​	1.31​	34.79​	36.1​	50.49​	1440​
2023​	5​	71.859​	1.57​	70.29​	0.64​	5.27​	5.91​	20.78​	1488​
2023​	6​	2.631​	1.31​	1.32​	0.54​	0.1​	0.64​	15.03​	1440​
2023​	7​	191.158​	1.47​	189.69​	0.45​	14.23​	14.68​	29.55​	1488​
2023​	8​	339.537​	6.97​	332.57​	2.13​	24.94​	27.07​	41.94​	1488​
2023​	9​	555.207​	1.91​	553.3​	0.58​	41.5​	42.08​	56.47​	1440​
2023​	10​	771.644​	1.96​	769.68​	0.6​	57.73​	58.33​	73.22​	1490​
2023​	11​	1493.586​	10.62​	1482.97​	3.25​	111.22​	114.47​	128.86​	1440​
2023​	12​	1857.3​	15.66​	1841.64​	4.79​	138.12​	142.91​	157.78​	1488​