Speculation - New charging plug?

[widodh]

For the EU I am fairly certain that Model 3 and then S and X will get the two additional pins to support CCS to at least 200A.

It makes sense and is very easy to do. It will allow users to fast charge at so much more chargers then just the SuC.

Take a look at www.fastned.nl and see how much chargers they already have in a tiny country as the Netherlands.

 

[arnis]

Not sure. For EU Level 1 means Schuko plug on one end (portable EVSEs). Level 2 means full power EVSE, both J1772 (type1) and Mennekes (type2). Level 3 is DC chargers.

I've not heard people mixing up Type2 with Level 2. At least not yet

I also think "CCS balls" will be added to Model 3 receptacle. Not sure how will they be covered. If they will be.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Not sure. For EU Level 1 means Schuko plug on one end (portable EVSEs). Level 2 means full power EVSE, both J1772 (type1) and Mennekes (type2). Level 3 is DC chargers.

I've not heard people mixing up Type2 with Level 2. At least not yet

Our experiences can certainly vary, so maybe I'm wrong. But everyone I know of talks "Type 2" cable and charging when talking of Mennekes, including the people at Tesla.

And on TMC, my experience is that our American friends talk of "Level 2" charging when talking of charging with a Type 1 cable. Of course some talk of J1772, but in general they don't seem to say I charged "Type 1". They talk of "Level 2" charging. And in my experience, the talk in Europe is "Type 2" charging.

Of course these are technically correct shorthands, "Level 2" as well as "Type 2", but they seem to be mixed in a non-uniform manner. In my mind if someone says "Level 2", I assume they mean "Level 2 Type 1", if they say "Type 2", they mean "Level 2 Type 2" - especially if the former is in the U.S. and the latter in Europe.

 

[mutle]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone in Europe talk about charging levels. "Schuko" and "Type 2" is what we call them.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone in Europe talk about charging levels. "Schuko" and "Type 2" is what we call them.

Yep. That's what we use.

But AFAIK, Americans call "Level 2" (or J1772) their AC fast charging, instead of calling it "Type 1".

 

[arnis]

I don't think I've ever heard anyone in Europe talk about charging levels. "Schuko" and "Type 2" is what we call them.

That's because we use "charging modes", which I will not explain here (will make even bigger mess )

And on TMC, my experience is that our American friends talk of "Level 2" charging when talking of charging with a Type 1 cable.

Americans never use "Type 1" because they have nothing else - only Type 1 - or a NEMA socket. We, Europeans, have both Type1 and Type2 EVSEs (type1 is now slowly phased out forever).

Again, Schuko and Type2 can only be used as descriptions to "what kind of outlet is there for charging".
Schuko is always Level1. Type2 is always Level 2. AFAIK there are no Type1 outlets, only Type1 vehicles in EU.
Sometimes there is a Type2 plug. Type1 vehicles can not use that. Though Type2 socket works.


In US, people usually refer to 110V outlet as Level1 and everything else Level2, even 240V sockets.
But, AFAIK, it is not actually "according to rules" to connect EVSE to 240V with a NEMA coupling.
Level 2 should always be hard wired (aka non-portable EVSE).

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Americans never use "Type 1" because they have nothing else - only Type 1 - or a NEMA socket. We, Europeans, have both Type1 and Type2 EVSEs (type1 is now slowly phased out forever).

Did you mean to write "something else" instead of "nothing else"? I think the opposite is true. I think most Tesla owners use a 240 volt NEMA outlet or a hard-wired EVSE, both or which would be considered a Level 2 charging option. I always thought Level 1 was 120 volts AC and Level 2 was 208-240 volts AC. Level 3 is high voltage DC.

Level 2 should always be hard wired (aka non-portable EVSE).

Where did you find that Level 2 needed to be hard-wired?

 

[landis]

I think most Tesla owners use a 240 volt NEMA outlet or a hard-wired EVSE, both or which would be considered a Level 2 charging option. I always thought Level 1 was 120 volts AC and Level 2 was 208-240 volts AC. Level 3 is high voltage DC.

Same here.

The best thing about NEMA sockets is that there are so many different ones to choose . ;-)
NEMA-5-15 are everywhere (but almost useless if in a 'hurry'.)
As a M3 first day reservation holder with a 90 mile round trip commute, I could use NEMA 14-30 (I already have for clothes dryer) in a pinch, but need to plan installation of NEMA 14-50 (for more convenient location).

This is because 110V provides such a poor charging rate, it wouldn't always finish charging while I sleep (if home late and leave early)
Looking just now, it appears tesla.com removed the 110V/NEMA 5-15 from the "Charging Estimator" which is just as well since for 90 miles of charge it was about 9 hours vs. about 3 hours for NEMA14-50.

I expect the reason why those of us 'on this side of the pond' make distinction between level 1 and 2 is because of the 110V vs 220V distinction which is of primary importance.


Following quote from US version of, Charge At Home | Tesla

Get up to 29 miles of range per hour with the included standard charging equipment:

• Mobile Connector (20 foot cord length)
• Adapter for standard 110 volt household outlets (NEMA 5-15)
• Adapter for higher power 240 volt outlet (NEMA 14-50)
• Adapter for public charging stations (SAE J1772)

You can simply plug into an outlet to charge. Installing a 240 volt outlet provides more power than a standard outlet to charge your Tesla faster.

 

[Model 3]

Electric car - Wikipedia

US charging standards
Around 1998 the California Air Resources Board classified levels of charging power that have been codified in title 13 of the California Code of Regulations, the U.S. 1999 National Electrical Code section 625 and SAE International standards.[citation needed] Four standards were developed, termed AC Level 1, AC Level 2, AC Level 3 charging, and Combo Charging System (CCS).

Charging station - Wikipedia

The International Electrotechnical Commission modes definition (IEC 62196):

• Mode 1 – slow charging from a regular electrical socket (single- or three-phase)
• Mode 2 – slow charging from a regular socket but with some EV specific protection arrangement (e.g., the Park & Charge or the PARVE systems)
• Mode 3 – slow or fast charging using a specific EV multi-pin socket with control and protection functions (e.g., SAE J1772 and IEC 62196)
• Mode 4 – fast charging using some special charger technology such as CHAdeMO

There are three connection cases:

• Case A is any charger connected to the mains (the mains supply cable is usually attached to the charger) usually associated with modes 1 or 2.
• Case B is an on-board vehicle charger with a mains supply cable which can be detached from both the supply and the vehicle – usually mode 3.
• Case C is a dedicated charging station with DC supply to the vehicle. The mains supply cable may be permanently attached to the charge-station such as in mode 4.

There are four plug types:

• Type 1 – single-phase vehicle coupler – reflecting the SAE J1772/2009 automotive plug specifications
• Type 2 – single- and three-phase vehicle coupler – reflecting the VDE-AR-E 2623-2-2 plug specifications
• Type 3 – single- and three-phase vehicle coupler equipped with safety shutters – reflecting the EV Plug Alliance proposal
• Type 4 – fast charge coupler – for special systems such as CHAdeMO

 

[Mishakim]

Did you mean to write "something else" instead of "nothing else"?

Not to speak for @arnis, but I'd agree with what he wrote. We (Americans with non-Tesla cars) have "nothing else" at the car end, we use J1772 for both level 1 and level 2 charging, so if we are referring to the voltage, we refer to the Level, and we have no reason to specify the car-end plug unless distinguishing from Tesla, in which case we'd call it J1772 (assuming the speaker cares enough to know the terminology).

At the supply end, we have so many choices, in my experience people refer to the specific NEMA socket in use, or just to the voltage, or intended use of the socket, since many people don't try to keep track of all those NEMA plugs. As in, "I plugged my Leaf into the 110V outlet in the parking lot", or "I use the dryer outlet in my garage"

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Not to speak for @arnis, but I'd agree with what he wrote. We (Americans with non-Tesla cars) have "nothing else" at the car end, we use J1772 for both level 1 and level 2 charging, so if we are referring to the voltage, we refer to the Level, and we have no reason to specify the car-end plug unless distinguishing from Tesla, in which case we'd call it J1772 (assuming the speaker cares enough to know the terminology).

Just to be clear, I don't think we usually talk about the car end in European Tesla circles either. All Tesla cars here of course have the same Mennekes plug as Type 2, even our Superchargers and of course Mobile Connectors use that in the car end.

However Type 2 is used to refer to when the charger end of the plug is Type 2... so when Level 2 Type 2 charging is used.

 

[arnis]

Did you mean to write "something else" instead of "nothing else"? I think the opposite is true. I think most Tesla owners use a 240 volt NEMA outlet or a hard-wired EVSE, both or which would be considered a Level 2 charging option. I always thought Level 1 was 120 volts AC and Level 2 was 208-240 volts AC. Level 3 is high voltage DC.

Well that appears to be true. Majority of Tesla users have NEMA 14-50 portable Tesla EVSE or hard-wired EVSE.

Where did you find that Level 2 needed to be hard-wired?

With the socket limitation (NEMA 14-50 should be the most powerful?) Level 2 EVSE-s could be plugged into a socket and not hard wired. With Tesla's portable EVSE it's fine, AFAIK adapter limits the maximum current (and portable EVSE is already limited anyway). But some people are "sneaky" and wire a NEMA 14-50 plug to the stationary EVSE with higher input power limit (80A in US?). Making EVSE portable (can be unplugged) and usable on any NEMA 14-50 socket. Just to avoid permits. Which results EVSE dropping to Mode2. This mode should be used occasionally with care. In the long run it might end up problematic.
People are people - if something could be done wrong SOME people will do it. For example 0.1% is realistic expectation. Hundreds of potential house fires annually.
If US continues with NEMA 14-50 at 40A, there will be people who disconnect incorrectly. Starting from the NEMA side.This will result in arcing. And this will degrade the coupling. Which will end with fire eventually. That is not a huge problem with Level 1 (both US and EU) due to low amp limit.
Tesla's EVSE might have a temp sensor in the NEMA adapters, not sure. Not all EVSEs are from Tesla.
This is why Mode 3 should be mandatory for daily use. No contact degradation, no arcing. STOP command before disconnection.

I don't think we usually talk about the car end in European Tesla circles either. All Tesla cars...

Exactly. All Tesla cars. But not all EV's. Leafs use Type1 MY 2010-2017. Like I said, the problem will be solved soon.


There are more complex reasons why Mode 2 should be avoided (worldwide, in EU Mode 2 is now the minimum requirement, Mode 1 is banned for EVs). The cable between EVSE (device that monitors safety and integrity of the connection) is not monitored well enough. This includes 5 highly loaded pairs of junctions between:
a) circuit breaker to wires b) wires to socket female pins c) female pins to male pins d) plug male pins to wires e) wires to EVSE internal terminal. In addition cable between plug and EVSE can (and likely it will) be stressed. Therefore it must be stranded. This can also be ignored by some electricians as EVSE appears to be installed permanently. This cable might increase in resistance over time due to mechanical stress. Also that part of the cable is not limited in length. And extensions can be used.
And cable between junction box and EVSE is not protected (one can be electrocuted). But cable between EVSE and vehicle is protected with RCCB. Not possible to die, literally. Only by strangling around the neck or something like that.

Mode 3 requires direct connection between circuit breaker and EVSE internal terminals. Also cable must be immobilized and protected in some scenarios. This is much safer. This is why Mode 2 should be avoided (seriously) at Level 2, especially above 20-25A. This is why Mode 2 is fine with Level 1.


I had my thesis about home EVSE's, l could keep the topic open for 10 more pages
Though I have lots to learn about US.

 

[ceric930]

I believe in the foreseeable future, Tesla will be the only EV maker that has meaningful number of cars needing DC charge. Other makers will have a hard time to catch up both on making the cars and building out charging infrastructure. When Tesla owners are the only meaningful group of owners on the road as customers, new charging stations will be more likely to include a Tesla plug in order to get revenue.

We need to think about this like the content provider in the Betamax vs. VHS case. The charging station network builder is the content provider here. They care less about technology but more about how they reach large group of customers. In the EV case, it would be the Tesla cars that are equivalent to VHS.

 

[McManX]

Just for fun I scaled the CCS and Tesla sockets and overlaid them onto a scaled (or pretty close unless I messed up) image of the model 3.

Hmmm.... looks fairly incriminating. I'm now willing to bet that there are two sockets under that big door. So... that leads to the next obvious question. What are they going to do with Model S and Model X? Somehow they would need to integrate dual plugs into those cars - but the design of the existing charge port door and adjacent taillight don't suit it very well.

View attachment 225495

If that whole triangle area opened that would be a huge opening, would be room for both but I question if that whole section will fold out. Would be highly susceptible to breaking off.

Some of the pics I have seen it looks like there may be a smaller section within the triangle area. There looks to be a <blurry> rectangle in these photos that could pop open to revel only the Tesla plug.

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/attachments/tesla-model-3-spy-photos-1-jpg.225593/

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/att...45816788794_3955214003429013610_o-jpg.225586/

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/attachments/screen-shot-2017-05-03-at-10-16-44-am-png.225588/

 

[Model 3]

If that whole triangle area opened that would be a huge opening, would be room for both but I question if that whole section will fold out. Would be highly susceptible to breaking off.

My guess is that it will not "fold out" like it does on TMS/X, but rather fold *up*, and by that even gives the socket some more protection from rain/snow while plugging it in or out.
Anyway it may look like this part is not in the final version, and that this will change a bit on the production car. And I do not see what you seams to see here:

Some of the pics I have seen it looks like there may be a smaller section within the triangle area. There looks to be a <blurry> rectangle in these photos that could pop open to revel only the Tesla plug.

 

[CT200h]

Having the CCs connector would really take some pressure off of superchargers for local charging
Newbies might be more likely to go the L2 chargers or CCS and clog them up instead of superchargers
Handy

 

[McManX]

My guess is that it will not "fold out" like it does on TMS/X, but rather fold *up*, and by that even gives the socket some more protection from rain/snow while plugging it in or out.
Anyway it may look like this part is not in the final version, and that this will change a bit on the production car. And I do not see what you seams to see here:

It could just be the color but zoom in on the second two pics. On the while car where the red is within the triangle it appears it could flip out. In same location on 2nd pic there appears to be a rectangle if you zoom in?

Weather protection for peace of mind though not necessary, plenty of snow has pilled on mine no problems.

 

[bxr140]

Having the CCs connector would really take some pressure off of superchargers for local charging
Newbies might be more likely to go the L2 chargers or CCS and clog them up instead of superchargers
Handy

Unlikely.

It's tough to see ANY charging network/company run as anything but a profit center...except the supercharging network. Supercharging is always going to be the most economical public method of charging an EV, and because of that Tesla owners will almost always choose the supercharging network over other options when practical.

 

[Model 3]

It could just be the color but zoom in on the second two pics. On the while car where the red is within the triangle it appears it could flip out. In same location on 2nd pic there appears to be a rectangle if you zoom in?

No, I still cant see any rectangles inside the triangle that could be opened. Yes, I do see the red reflexive piece that looks like it is glued on, but I think that is to small for any charging port? And I don't think this piece can be opened. But you can find better pictures then these of the triangle where we suppose the charging port will be, and then you may be convinced that there is no opening-rectangle within the triangle.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Exactly. All Tesla cars. But not all EV's. Leafs use Type1 MY 2010-2017. Like I said, the problem will be solved soon.

I understand that the car end is a diverse mix, but are Type 1 chargers actually used somewhere? Maybe there are in some countries, Europe certainly is a diverse place...

I would have simply assumed a Leaf owner to have a Type 1 to Type 2 cable and call that something like "Leaf's Type 2 cable". What is on the car end is sort of irrelevant beyond that, what is on the charger end is the everyday variable that changes for the user and for which they have many cables and adapters...

We don't speak of Type 2 when talking of the CHAdeMO adapter for example. We just talk about a CHAdeMO adapter. I would have expected Leaf owners to talk about a Type 2 cable...

Anyway, I do not mean to argue your experience, just kind of adding my thinking to the mix. I appreciate your inputs a lot!