Starting and also ending the iPace "comparison".

[arubinst]

In terms of the Jag 'race', I think it's reasonable that they raced the $69k Jag against the $76k and $96k X's, but not against the $140k X.

It depends on what you want to compare and the outcome you're looking for.

In my opinion, you should compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges (independent of the price you pay for those apples or oranges).

The MX 75 is about 500 pounds heavier than the iPace. It is also much larger and capable of carrying up to 7 people. The MX is massive... just another kind of beast. So I don't think the comparison is fare in this respect.

The comparison could have been made with the MS. While the MS is not considered an SUV, it does have more cargo space than many SUVs and the cabin size and characteristics would be more in line with the iPace.

By the way, the iPace doesn't exactly fit my definition of SUV either.

 

[Peteski]

It depends on what you want to compare and the outcome you're looking for.

In my opinion, you should compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges (independent of the price you pay for those apples or oranges).

The MX 75 is about 500 pounds heavier than the iPace. It is also much larger and capable of carrying up to 7 people. The MX is massive... just another kind of beast. So I don't think the comparison is fare in this respect.

The comparison could have been made with the MS. While the MS is not considered an SUV, it does have more cargo space than many SUVs and the cabin size and characteristics would be more in line with the iPace.

By the way, the iPace doesn't exactly fit my definition of SUV either.

The drag race was just a cheap media shot and totally irrelevant to anyone with half a brain. Or maybe I'm wrong and on the basis that a 5 seat i-Pace with limited luggage capacity can haul itself from 0-60 mph a whole car length ahead of my considerably more spacious 7-seat X 75D, I need to rethink my priorities for family transport?

Anyway I'm looking forward to seeing i-Pace boy racers getting totally wasted by the X P100D and then wondering why they didn't win because they'd seen the video, lol.

 

[Shock-On-T]

OTA updates allow Tesla to release features early, but also half-baked. AP2 for 12 months was simply dangerous. It's now basically where AP1 got to before being abandoned by Tesla.

Having gone through the early adopter excitement of new features on a regular basis, including the breaking of some old features, I am now happily staying on AP1 v7.1, the apogee of AP1 firmwares. I know where this system has issues (eg cresting hills). I no longer want the learning curve of the car trying to kill me in new and novel ways with each new firmware revision.

My AP1 car is now much better than when it was on 7.1. Much smoother and more accurate. You really should upgrade. The only negative is the nags, but they're not too bad.

 

[Shock-On-T]

The drag race was just a cheap media shot and totally irrelevant to anyone with half a brain. Or maybe I'm wrong and on the basis that a 5 seat i-Pace with limited luggage capacity can haul itself from 0-60 mph a whole car length ahead of my considerably more spacious 7-seat X 75D, I need to rethink my priorities for family transport?

Anyway I'm looking forward to seeing i-Pace boy racers getting totally wasted by the X P100D and then wondering why they didn't win because they'd seen the video, lol.

You're right that it was a cheap media shot.
Where I disagree is that I reckon it will fool even those with >50% of a brain. Not many people know the model numbers of the X, and they would think the 100D was the performance version.

 

[Peteski]

You're right that it was a cheap media shot.
Where I disagree is that I reckon it will fool even those with >50% of a brain. Not many people know the model numbers of the X, and they would think the 100D was the performance version.

I agree, what I actually meant was that anyone who chooses to buy an iPace simply because it can accelerate to 60 mph 0.2 seconds faster than the larger X 100D is not using much of their brain, regardless of what model they believe it is. The only takeaway from that video is that the iPace is in the same performance league as a Tesla (well certain Tesla models at least) which people generally associate with amazing acceleration. I can fully understand why Jaguar decided to do that, although I'm sure it's going to backfire later on when people start posting drag race videos against the X P100D. I hope Jaguar have their performance iPace under development, lol.

 

[McRat]

I agree, what I actually meant was that anyone who chooses to buy an iPace simply because it can accelerate to 60 mph 0.2 seconds faster than the larger X 100D is not using much of their brain, regardless of what model they believe it is. The only takeaway from that video is that the iPace is in the same performance league as a Tesla (well certain Tesla models at least) which people generally associate with amazing acceleration. I can fully understand why Jaguar decided to do that, although I'm sure it's going to backfire later on when people start posting drag race videos against the X P100D. I hope Jaguar have their performance iPace under development, lol.

The iPaces that are being released now are standard editions. Nobody is saying for sure if there is an iPace SVR in the works, probably to avoid killing current sales.*

Jaguar is considering a hot I-Pace

Jaguar just pulled a marketing stunt. Tesla markets their cars as being the quickest EVs, so Jaguar just used that marketing.

Oddly enough, it is rare to use comparison tests in advertising. You can let the press do it, or even help them, but hands-off is the best policy. The problem with comparison testing was discovered during market research. You are spending 1/3 of your ad advertising for your competition.

1. Advertise to show what your product is for decisions today.
2. Advertise to keep your name in people's mind for future decisions.
3. Advertise to let owners feel good about their purchase to lock in loyalty.

By doing a comparison, you are helping your competition with #2. Even #3 sometimes. "Hey, there's MY car! WOOT!" if the owner isn't interest in the feature compared. The Pepsi Challenge had a bit of that. "OK, so some people like Pepsi. I'm not 'some people' ".

*I hate the term Osbourning. It's an urban myth. Osbourne was being slaughtered by Kaypro. Claiming they were coming out with something to compete with Kaypro (NOT the Osbourne 1) was their only hope. And they failed. I remember the running the Kaypro II since I knew how to program CP/M and Z80s. It was world's better than the Osbourne. Obsourne sold crap, that's what killed them.

 

[Peteski]

The iPaces that are being released now are standard editions. Nobody is saying for sure if there is an iPace SVR in the works, probably to avoid killing current sales.*

I don't think an SVR variant would kill a significant number of their current sales. It would be a lot more money and target serious performance addicts only, much like the "P" Tesla models. But I doubt they can get away with it unless it's at least as fast as a Model X P100D. That's probably their biggest dilemma in producing it right now! Interesting that they are still focusing on the F-Pace for ultimate performance at this time with the new SVR variant. This is the problem I see for ICE manufacturers, where do they really focus their key resources?

 

[MrAustraliaTax]

My AP1 car is now much better than when it was on 7.1.

That's good to know. Spotify search is now broken on 7.1, and I am envious of seat position adjustment based on key fob, so it's just the nag that is the sticking point for me at the moment.

Pretty close to deciding to update.

 

[Shock-On-T]

That's good to know. Spotify search is now broken on 7.1, and I am envious of seat position adjustment based on key fob, so it's just the nag that is the sticking point for me at the moment.

Pretty close to deciding to update.

It’s a shame you can’t roll back if you don’t like it. The current version is still not perfect by any means, but there are some notable improvements. Very noticeable is the smoothness in coming to a stop in autopilot.

 

[BigMskiman]

I agree, what I actually meant was that anyone who chooses to buy an iPace simply because it can accelerate to 60 mph 0.2 seconds faster than the larger X 100D is not using much of their brain, regardless of what model they believe it is. The only takeaway from that video is that the iPace is in the same performance league as a Tesla (well certain Tesla models at least) which people generally associate with amazing acceleration. I can fully understand why Jaguar decided to do that, although I'm sure it's going to backfire later on when people start posting drag race videos against the X P100D. I hope Jaguar have their performance iPace under development, lol.

iPace Jag has never pulled up next to me to challenge, and I won't bite. But I look forward to that video too!

 

[Uncle Paul]

Wonder if that was one of the new "uncorked" X75s. They are over a second quicker to 60.

 

[Jayrod]

The drag race was just a cheap media shot and totally irrelevant to anyone with half a brain. Or maybe I'm wrong and on the basis that a 5 seat i-Pace with limited luggage capacity can haul itself from 0-60 mph a whole car length ahead of my considerably more spacious 7-seat X 75D, I need to rethink my priorities for family transport?

Anyway I'm looking forward to seeing i-Pace boy racers getting totally wasted by the X P100D and then wondering why they didn't win because they'd seen the video, lol.

You make a good point, who cares about the 0-60 in an electric SUV? Obviously the X is bigger and heavier to begin with.

I watched a few reviews on the I-pace and a few things stuck out to me. The cockpit design I’m not really liking, everything seems really crammed towards the driver. The screen looks kind of small and cheesy to be honest.

Tiny bit of storage, and no what most people have echoed here, no network.

 

[Peteski]

Wonder if that was one of the new "uncorked" X75s. They are over a second quicker to 60.

Uncorked based on the published performance figures i.e. 4.9 vs 4.5 sec 0-60. They also ran it against an X 100D (4.7 sec) so the results are as you would expect i.e. the Jag a car length or so ahead at 60 mph.

 

[Peteski]

You make a good point, who cares about the 0-60 in an electric SUV? Obviously the X is bigger and heavier to begin with.

I watched a few reviews on the I-pace and a few things stuck out to me. The cockpit design I’m not really liking, everything seems really crammed towards the driver. The screen looks kind of small and cheesy to be honest.

Tiny bit of storage, and no what most people have echoed here, no network.

I do actually care about performance in my SUV, it's just that I don't care about the difference between 0-60 in 4.9 secs vs 4.5 secs! These are both plenty quick enough for the daily chores and the fact that the X is a much bigger car makes that minor performance disadvantage totally irrelevant. In real world driving I don't ever wish for more performance in the uncorked X 75D, it is satisfyingly quick, smooth and effortless and only serious performance cars can match or beat it off the line. I've driven the X P100D and although amazing to floor it, the reality is that the hypercar performance is a little at odds with my general usage of a large SUV i.e. as family transport and relaxing everyday drive. So much of the time the extra performance would be totally invisible, as it was on the test drives we had. I genuinely preferred driving the 75D most of the time with a little less weight (150 kg less) and more progressive throttle pedal. It felt more in keeping with the character of the car.

I also agree with your thoughts on the iPace interior. It looks like they were scared to do anything different to a typical modern ICE car. I'll take the light and airy minimalist X interior with panoramic windscreen any time. The interior ambience in the X still amazes me months after taking delivery. Any other SUV I go in now feels ancient and cramped.

 

[Saghost]

Passenger space is pretty much determined by wheelbase and roof-height..
The i-Pace wheelbase is longer than any of the Teslas.
i-Pace wheelbase 299 cm
Model S wheelbase 297.5 cm
Model X wheelbase 296.5cm
Model 3 wheelbase 287.5 cm

In terms of the Jag 'race', I think it's reasonable that they raced the $69k Jag against the $76k and $96k X's, but not against the $140k X.

I like that Jag have taken so much care in slowing the fast-charge 'roll-off', and have worked so hard on the low-temperature range, thanks to their heat-scavenging (they get 2.5kW of heating from each 1kW of battery power, even in sub-zero temperatures).

Re. Charging networks: In the UK, Superchargers had a three year head-start on CCS installations. After the first year of CCS roll-out, there are four times as many CCS rapid chargers, and they are rolling out 16 times as fast. I expect the same to happen in the USA, as the CCS automakers (Jaguar, Audi, Ford, VW, Porsche, BMW, etc) start introducing their new models.

Passenger space is three dimensional. Accordingly, the analysis for it should be, too.

You didn't mention width at all, and while you mentioned height, you didn't look at numbers for it. The iPace is only 61" tall, compared to the 66" of the X, the 57" of the S and 3 - and the 65" of the F-Pace.

It's also more than half a foot narrower than the S, X, and F-Pace - about the same width as a 3, actually.

I'm not really convinced the iPace should be compared as an SUV at all - it's closer to a sedan or compact wagon than it is to an SUV.

 

[Jayrod]

I do actually care about performance in my SUV, it's just that I don't care about the difference between 0-60 in 4.9 secs vs 4.5 secs! These are both plenty quick enough for the daily chores and the fact that the X is a much bigger car makes that minor performance disadvantage totally irrelevant. In real world driving I don't ever wish for more performance in the uncorked X 75D, it is satisfyingly quick, smooth and effortless and only serious performance cars can match or beat it off the line. I've driven the X P100D and although amazing to floor it, the reality is that the hypercar performance is a little at odds with my general usage of a large SUV i.e. as family transport and relaxing everyday drive. So much of the time the extra performance would be totally invisible, as it was on the test drives we had. I genuinely preferred driving the 75D most of the time with a little less weight (150 kg less) and more progressive throttle pedal. It felt more in keeping with the character of the car.

I also agree with your thoughts on the iPace interior. It looks like they were scared to do anything different to a typical modern ICE car. I'll take the light and airy minimalist X interior with panoramic windscreen any time. The interior ambience in the X still amazes me months after taking delivery. Any other SUV I go in now feels ancient and cramped.

That’s what I was getting at, it’s marginally different and probably not the first consideration for someone in the EV SUV market. It’s more like “crap I don’t want a mini van”.

 

[Peteski]

That’s what I was getting at, it’s marginally different and probably not the first consideration for someone in the EV SUV market. It’s more like “crap I don’t want a mini van”.

Exactly. So quite a pointless comparison for a potential owner with some sense.

 

[McRat]

That’s what I was getting at, it’s marginally different and probably not the first consideration for someone in the EV SUV market. It’s more like “crap I don’t want a mini van”.

I wasn't aware there was an 'EV SUV' market. At least not yet. If my family needs were an SUV, the Tesla Model X would not fit. It doesn't tow enough, is limited to 7 seats max but comes with 5, and you would have to worry about crossing a foot deep rocky riverbed or a sand wash perhaps. I haven't done traction tests on Teslas, but a conventional SUV by either lightly holding the brake or buying a cheap E-locker has to spin all 4 tires at the same RPM before it's stuck. With the E-locker any of the 4 tires can apply full peak torque, which is huge. SUVs have massive reduction gears called Low Range. Top speed is like 25mph, so dragging 50,000lb through the dirt is not an issue. Only tire choice limits you.

The Jag isn't an SUV. It's a station wagon. Land Rover makes SUVs.

The question is, how does it handle? Surprisingly, some station wagons are a riot to blast around a track in. One my favs (RIP) was the CTS-V Wagon. I could lap faster in that than the coupe at Spring Mountain.

That's what I'm shopping for. I don't need an 'SUV', but nobody is making a true EV sport sedan/wagon that is actually available yet. While unlikely, it is possible the Jag will be available for me before the Model 3LR will. And it also possible the Jag will be the superior sports car to the Tesla lineup, an area Tesla abandoned.

While the iPace is not a 2+2 coupe, neither is any EV for sale with any credentials. The market is focused on family pavement cars and ecoboxes, some with brisk straight line acceleration, but just simply family cars.

Oddly enough the iPace is outlined in the #1 selling form factor. The Fake SUV (CUV, Cross-over, cross-dresser, 'not-a-wagon', etc) rules the roost today.

So from a marketing perspective Jag might be the first to 'get it right' from the go. People crave 5 seat station wagons err... SUVs.

 

[brkaus]

@McRat very true about the suv descriptions. I always find the SUV thing a bit funny.

 

[Peteski]

I wasn't aware there was an 'EV SUV' market. At least not yet. If my family needs were an SUV, the Tesla Model X would not fit. It doesn't tow enough, is limited to 7 seats max but comes with 5, and you would have to worry about crossing a foot deep rocky riverbed or a sand wash perhaps. I haven't done traction tests on Teslas, but a conventional SUV by either lightly holding the brake or buying a cheap E-locker has to spin all 4 tires at the same RPM before it's stuck. With the E-locker any of the 4 tires can apply full peak torque, which is huge. SUVs have massive reduction gears called Low Range. Top speed is like 25mph, so dragging 50,000lb through the dirt is not an issue. Only tire choice limits you.

The Jag isn't an SUV. It's a station wagon. Land Rover makes SUVs.

The question is, how does it handle? Surprisingly, some station wagons are a riot to blast around a track in. One my favs (RIP) was the CTS-V Wagon. I could lap faster in that than the coupe at Spring Mountain.

That's what I'm shopping for. I don't need an 'SUV', but nobody is making a true EV sport sedan/wagon that is actually available yet. While unlikely, it is possible the Jag will be available for me before the Model 3LR will. And it also possible the Jag will be the superior sports car to the Tesla lineup, an area Tesla abandoned.

While the iPace is not a 2+2 coupe, neither is any EV for sale with any credentials. The market is focused on family pavement cars and ecoboxes, some with brisk straight line acceleration, but just simply family cars.

Oddly enough the iPace is outlined in the #1 selling form factor. The Fake SUV (CUV, Cross-over, cross-dresser, 'not-a-wagon', etc) rules the roost today.

So from a marketing perspective Jag might be the first to 'get it right' from the go. People crave 5 seat station wagons err... SUVs.

The iPace is very much an SUV in its home UK market. The US definition of an SUV appears to be a fair bit different i.e. much more focused on the UV part. A "station wagon" in the UK is an "estate" which is basically a low riding saloon (sedan) with an extended boot and tailgate e.g. VW Passat Estate, Volvo V90 etc. Anything with a raised, more upright seating stance and a tailgate is an SUV or Crossover here. iPace and Tesla Model X are mid and large sized SUVs respectively here in the UK.