Stop the Press! Tesla announces REAL HP numbers for P85D and P90L

[jerry33]

Almost everyone who has gotten an MS has seen another released or upgraded to exceed theirs.

This has been known from the beginning (or at least shortly after). Anyone who's ever purchased an audio system or computer shouldn't be surprised. The only people who might have a case would be Founders and Signature owners--but I don't see many complaints from them.

 

[aznt1217]

Maybe not a lie, but lets all agree, that Tesla withheld information that they new may have had an impact on the sales of the P85D. Tesla withheld information that would put the P85D in a more truthful light.

If you on your dating profile tell people that you are 6'5" and not telling that requires the use of a 1' box to stand on. Then it may not be a lie, but it is not representative for the truth in all situation but the one where there is a 1' box available

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HP is HP and do not care if the HP is produced in a ICE or EV, so stop saying it is a metrics for old ICE tech.

Would I still have bought it, maybe. Bu there is a question back, which one would buy, the P85D with 463hp or the P85D with 691hp, same price?

When did I say HP was HP. Re-read what I wrote. Tesla is putting awhp and HP. Other manufacturers don't. Okay so a P85D with 463 awhp and a P85D with 691 HP and have the same performance 1:1 and it is the same price. People that buy today still pay the same. It's not like it's a different product.

Did Tesla withold information? Go read the blog post by JB straubel explaining why they went the route they did. It was for simplicities sake-- most car companies don't explain that and nobody holds them to it. This is another case of Tesla being needlessly held to a higher standard because people always want something for nothing.

 

[hobbes]

Okay so a P85D with 463 awhp and a P85D with 691 HP and have the same performance 1:1 and it is the same price.

Right. Less power output, same performance. Your car just became more efficient by the numbers, if anything. If it is horse power you are after, why don´t you buy a big, inefficient gas guzzler ?!

 

[sillydriver]

To state where I'm coming from, I'm a satisfied P85D owner. I've edited this into my long post at

Let's try to make sense of all the numbers we have

which I will repeat here as my comment on this dispute:

In the dispute over the horsepower of the P85D, the most accurate statement is that BOTH the 762 motor HP and the 463 battery-limited HP are significant, and subjectively I think they are about equally significant. From 0 - 30 MPH the car performs like a 762 HP car because its limiting factor is rated engine torque. That's why it has hypercar acceleration off the line. Above 30 it behaves like a 463 HP car, and from 30 - 60 like a 463 HP car with short gearing and multiple gears that keep it right at the peak of its power band. Then at high speeds it falls out of its power band and performs like a less-than-463 HP car. Subjectively, I think we P85D owners have experienced hypercar enjoyment off the line and a bit of frustration at more typical passing power in about equal measure. But I think it's as misleading to say it is only a 463 HP car as it is to say it's a 762 HP car.

 

[aznt1217]

This reminds me of the GT-R launch control fiasco. Where you had to put the GT-R in launch control to get stated 0-60 times, oh but you can only do it a few times before you break your transmission and... Its not covered under warranty. So yes when I talk gas cars the system is different. It annoys me to no end that this is such a big deal when there are bigger things in this company to worry about.

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To state where I'm coming from, I'm a satisfied P85D owner. I've edited this into my long post at

Let's try to make sense of all the numbers we have

which I will repeat here as my comment on this dispute:

In the dispute over the horsepower of the P85D, the most accurate statement is that BOTH the 762 motor HP and the 463 battery-limited HP are significant, and subjectively I think they are about equally significant. From 0 - 30 MPH the car performs like a 762 HP car because its limiting factor is rated engine torque. That's why it has hypercar acceleration off the line. Above 30 it behaves like a 463 HP car, and from 30 - 60 like a 463 HP car with short gearing and multiple gears that keep it right at the peak of its power band. Then at high speeds it falls out of its power band and performs like a less-than-463 HP car. Subjectively, I think we P85D owners have experienced hypercar enjoyment off the line and a bit of frustration at more typical passing power in about equal measure. But I think it's as misleading to say it is only a 463 HP car as it is to say it's a 762 HP car.

This is interesting and I think it touches on the difficulty JB pointed out in the blog for HP equivalency.

 

[Caligula]

Shame on Tesla. They lied just like VW except there is no extra pollution blow into the air. They manipulate the numbers and the number can’t be achieve by the car the sold to the customers.

Tesla should disclose the actual HP that goes to the wheels, not the maximum power that can generate from the motor(s). For example, a race team can probably tweak the civic 4 cylinder engine to 1000hp (I’m extracting) that runs on race fuel, although it’s the same engine, but Honda shouldn’t advertise Civic with 1000hp, if you know what I mean.

I hate to burst your bubble, but basically every major ICE vehicle has its power rated by its manufacturer at the engine crank and NOT the wheels. If you want to compare apples to apples, what Tesla did is exactly the same thing. Furthermore, if Honda made a stock 4 cylinder that could take 1000hp output without exploding within 2 seconds (be it on C18 or whatever other fueling stipulation you want), it would be the greatest selling point ever... even if it only made 10hp with the factory tune. Every tuner under the sun would be lining up to buy that thing by the dozen.

 

[yak-55]

In the dispute over the horsepower of the P85D, the most accurate statement is that BOTH the 762 motor HP and the 463 battery-limited HP are significant, and subjectively I think they are about equally significant. From 0 - 30 MPH the car performs like a 762 HP car because its limiting factor is rated engine torque. That's why it has hypercar acceleration off the line. Above 30 it behaves like a 463 HP car, and from 30 - 60 like a 463 HP car with short gearing and multiple gears that keep it right at the peak of its power band. Then at high speeds it falls out of its power band and performs like a less-than-463 HP car. Subjectively, I think we P85D owners have experienced hypercar enjoyment off the line and a bit of frustration at more typical passing power in about equal measure. But I think it's as misleading to say it is only a 463 HP car as it is to say it's a 762 HP car.

I'm completely with you up to the last sentence. It is misleading to say its a 762hp car when it never produces that power. Tesla didn't promote the car as a 463hp car with A LOT of low end torque, AWD, and excellent traction control. They promoted it as a 691/762 hp AWD car. Their position is factually incorrect, misleading, and in my opinion, fraudulent.

The high low end torque, AWD, and traction control all speak to the exceptional low speed performance we enjoy. 691/762hp implies MUCH more high speed performance (outside the traction controlled region below ~30 mph). Its not a matter of the car "falling out of its power band" ... its that it never achieves its purported power band.

 

[jdw]

I'm completely with you up to the last sentence. It is misleading to say its a 762hp car when it never produces that power. Tesla didn't promote the car as a 463hp car with A LOT of low end torque, AWD, and excellent traction control. They promoted it as a 691/762 hp AWD car. Their position is factually incorrect, misleading, and in my opinion, fraudulent.

I think they promoted it as 691/762 HP motors, which cumulatively, they are. Dodge promotes the Charger Hellcat as a 707 HP engine, which it is - at 6250 RPM and before drive train losses. The difference is that being an electric engine with no transmission, the curves are different. The Tesla is battery limited, the Dodge is RPM and transmission limited. Should Dodge owners sue because they only get 250HP at 2500 RPM?

Motor power is a measure of the motors capability.

 

[tomas]

I believe you won't get anything back without legal actions. Various contacts have been made by different customers without a single reply from Tesla. Letter signed by 71 customers got no response.

Then Danish and Norwegian customers started pursuing legal route and suddenly this new development.

I suggest you look for class action lawsuit.

And, to be clear, you may not achieve anything with legal action. It is not yet established either that the legal action caused the addition of battery limited HP numbers on Tesla website, or that the Danish and Norwegian customers will win their suit or procure a settlement. It is already established that Tesla listens to their customers and answers persistent questions (e.g., underbody shield, range, HP) through Blogs and website postings. Correlation to any legal action is your conjecture.

 

[LetsGoFast]

To state where I'm coming from, I'm a satisfied P85D owner. <snip> From 0 - 30 MPH the car performs like a 762 HP car because its limiting factor is rated engine torque. That's why it has hypercar acceleration off the line. Above 30 it behaves like a 463 HP car, and from 30 - 60 like a 463 HP car with short gearing and multiple gears that keep it right at the peak of its power band. Then at high speeds it falls out of its power band and performs like a less-than-463 HP car. Subjectively, I think we P85D owners have experienced hypercar enjoyment off the line and a bit of frustration at more typical passing power in about equal measure. But I think it's as misleading to say it is only a 463 HP car as it is to say it's a 762 HP car.

I think your posts come closest in the thread to reflecting my own views. I'm sometimes frustrated because this subject is one of those places where those of us who come from performance car backgrounds have trouble even finding common vocabulary with those who are more concerned about environmental issues. The only quibble I'd have with your analysis is that I suspect that biggest advantage that Tesla has over conventional cars from 0-30 isn't so much its increased torque (although that is obviously a significant factor too). I think the primary difference is that the extraordinary ability they have to modulate motor power to a very fine precision with micro bursts on and off gives them traction control that is simply without peer in the automotive world. It is well known that the biggest difficulty in launching is avoiding the loss of traction -- most ICE cars solve this problem by applying brake in micro-pulses, which is extremely inefficient. The P85D's capability to catapult from a standing start is unlike anything else I've ever encountered and I bet that has more to do with the car's ability to precisely modulate motor power than an abundance of torque. There are cars that produce more torque even low in the power band, but there isn't an ICE car in the world that could put out 0-60 times like the P85D on its tires.

I think they promoted it as 691/762 HP motors, which cumulatively, they are. Dodge promotes the Charger Hellcat as a 707 HP engine, which it is - at 6250 RPM and before drive train losses. The difference is that being an electric engine with no transmission, the curves are different. The Tesla is battery limited, the Dodge is RPM and transmission limited. Should Dodge owners sue because they only get 250HP at 2500 RPM?

Motor power is a measure of the motors capability.

I feel like I'm a broken record here. The Hellcat produces its rated HP at some point of its curve. The Tesla produces its rated HP at no point ever. It would be more like if the Hellcat claimed 1000 HP because they could accomplish that with NOx and jet fuel and then said "the motor is capable of that, we don't claim it makes that with your actual fuel system."

 

[Rafik]

Looks like they've now removed all numbers entirely...hmm

 

[WestCoastP85D]

Only on the design studio... the numbers remain on the product page.

Looks like they've now removed all numbers entirely...hmm

 

[scottf200]

Looks like they've now removed all numbers entirely...hmm

Link below: www teslamotors com/models#battery-options

Model S | Tesla Motors

 

[lolachampcar]

If those from the ICE world are truly struggling to come to grips with BeVs and how to relate their performance, I would suggest you abandon notions of hp, gears, launch control and all that. It is not that these concepts are not relevant in many ways but that they distract attention away from the basics of what is going on.

Tesla engineers decide how much energy they wish to extract from the battery and for how long. Above all else, this is controlling. There are obviously physical limits like fuses, internal cell temperature and max discharge rate before damaging electrodes but Tesla will stay far away from those limits for longevity reasons (just like ICE stay away from high rpm to save valves, springs, rods and cranks).

I appologize for the broken record nature of this but the only direct comparison that can be made is maximum acceleration for every car of interest from zero to its top speed. Only here will you have a chance to directly compare, using repeatable results, the performance of each system in the speed range you are interested in. This approach would allow us all to see how a P85D is clearly quicker than most anything on the road to 30 mph yet is likely but a mid pack performer from 60-80. All of the comparisons can be done without regard or concern for weight, gearing, launch control, you name it.

It is fun to delve into why the differences exist but, if you want to stop things like the disappointment experienced by our European friends when the PD's highway performance did not meet their expectations, you will have to look at the actual performance of the system as a whole in the real world.

 

[sillydriver]

I'm completely with you up to the last sentence. It is misleading to say its a 762hp car when it never produces that power. Tesla didn't promote the car as a 463hp car with A LOT of low end torque, AWD, and excellent traction control. They promoted it as a 691/762 hp AWD car. Their position is factually incorrect, misleading, and in my opinion, fraudulent.

The high low end torque, AWD, and traction control all speak to the exceptional low speed performance we enjoy. 691/762hp implies MUCH more high speed performance (outside the traction controlled region below ~30 mph). Its not a matter of the car "falling out of its power band" ... its that it never achieves its purported power band.

I agree it IS misleading to say it's a 762 HP car. But I also think it's misleading to say it is -- to say it delivers the performance of -- just a 463 HP car.

Consider a 762 HP engine which produces 713 lb-ft of torque and has an ideal dead flat torque curve. That engine will actually output 762 HP when it reaches 5252*HP/Torque = 5252*762/713 = 5612 RPM. At lower RPM it outputs less than 762HP, even wide open: for example, only 136 HP at 1000 RPM as the car begins to accelerate. Tesla's motors behave just like that engine until they hit 3409 RPM, which is 29 MPH. At that RPM they produce 463 HP, and above that they are battery limited.

Yes, the argument on the other side is that the motors are also behaving like a 463 HP engine that would produce full power at a more normal 5000 or 6000 RPM with lower torque, but where the car has very short gearing that could lay that full amount of power down on the road at 29MPH. In that case the car would need a large number of quick-shifting gears or a CVT to keep RPMs in the power band as the car accelerated from 29 MPH to much higher speeds. That would be an unusual set-up. My point is that subjectively off the line, the P85D behaves like a 762 HP car with more conventional gearing. After all, at 463 HP the car is dragging around 11 lbs per horsepower. What 11 lb/HP ICE car has such world-beating performance off the line that it can make unwary passengers scream? I think none. Hence my comment that it is ALSO misleading to classify it as merely a 463 HP car.

I should add there is also evidence (see my long write-up) that driveline losses from motor to tires are very low compared to ICE cars with transmissions. So in terms of max HP actually delivered to the pavement, it may be 10 - 15% higher than what a 463 HP ICE car could deliver.

I don't want to sound like an apologist or a fanboy -- and I'm upset at the company for changing the specs on the P85D ludicrous upgrade just after I put down my 500 bucks -- but on the other hand, I really love the feeling of kicking the pedal from a standstill.

 

[lolachampcar]

It would have been marketing suicide for Musk to quote sub 500 hp numbers at the P85D launch.

 

[Caligula]

I feel like I'm a broken record here. The Hellcat produces its rated HP at some point of its curve. The Tesla produces its rated HP at no point ever. It would be more like if the Hellcat claimed 1000 HP because they could accomplish that with NOx and jet fuel and then said "the motor is capable of that, we don't claim it makes that with your actual fuel system."

I believe the point was to show that the Dodge does NOT produce its advertised figures at the wheels, as the reported factory figures are in BHP... not WHP. Same thing as electric motor power at the shaft versus at the wheels. Also, N2O = nitrous oxide. NOx is NITROGEN oxide.

 

[WestCoastP85D]

It would have been marketing suicide for Musk to quote sub 500 hp numbers at the P85D launch.

Yep.

 

[sillydriver]

I appologize for the broken record nature of this but the only direct comparison that can be made is maximum acceleration for every car of interest from zero to its top speed. Only here will you have a chance to directly compare, using repeatable results, the performance of each system in the speed range you are interested in. This approach would allow us all to see how a P85D is clearly quicker than most anything on the road to 30 mph yet is likely but a mid pack performer from 60-80. All of the comparisons can be done without regard or concern for weight, gearing, launch control, you name it.

I think this is a fair way to look at it. For my part, the greatness of 0 - 30 keeps me happy despite the mediocrity (compared with the quickest cars) of 60 - 100.

 

[lolachampcar]

The sublime nature of the car as the front wheels pull it out of a corner at the limit of traction is what really puts a smile on my face. The car has no peers when it comes to how it manages all four wheels.