Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Target]

This is what I have been saying all along.

Which likely explains why they have backed away from stating that it is fixing the fire issue.

First corporate rule when the lawyers get involved, deny, deny deny. Only after discovery happens and you have wasted a ton of money for the other side, negotiate a settlement that keeps all data sealed for a minimum of cost.

 

[mjmiron]

This is what I have been saying all along.

According to the press release on 6/24/19 from InsideEV the explanation given was to reduce degradation and extend the battery. If that is the case I can only assume they should be doing a recall since they did not state it was due to fires.

Here is the article Tesla Battery Protection Software Update Reduces Range

IMHO this should be a recall and Tesla needs to stop farting around with owners and come clean and take action and recall and replace batteries.

 

[dhanson865]

The post you responded to was me addressing the concern that Tesla is deleting threads regarding this issue on their own forums at Tesla.com. It had nothing to do with TMC. Maybe you are confused.

NO, let me put it in order for you. Since you have such trouble understanding.

* you asked why there aren't long threads on Tesla.com about this issue.
* I replied with a link to a post on TMC talking about posts being removed on tesla.com
* you replied literally saying "I've been involved with that forum long enough to know that Tesla does not remove posts. If they did, why did the post you linked above remain? Makes no sense."

So the post I linked to remained because it's here on TMC. You literally said I linked to the tesla.com forum. I literally did no such thing.

 

[IngTH]

From the post listing all the Tesla fires (8 total outside of accidents) only 2 were while charging and they were both at Superchargers. So, if the battery damage has already happened then changing the charging tactic now on batteries that are showing some level of damage may do ZERO to stop more fires.

There were a lot more fires without accident (~23?)! What Tesla knew from the beginning is that their NCA cathode is VERY instable and has few reserves for delithiation beyond normal operating limits!

That the situation would get worse with battery degradation they knew too!

It was just a matter of time until scrutiny from regulators would come!

Reducing the EOCV by ~130 mV is an effective way to make a disbalanced cell safe again. The charging curve (BC omitted, threshold CC/CV lowered) and thermal management got adapted too, so the problem seems to be solved for them (but not for you as you are loosing usability of your cars)!

I think your chances in a legal action are good, because all that happened was previsible years ago.

 

[Droschke]

What Tesla knew from the beginning is that their NCA cathode is VERY instable and has few reserves for delithiation beyond normal operating limits!

@IngTH - In other words, you are saying they knew their batteries were not safe long term based on the way they planned the usage?

 

[mjmiron]

There were a lot more fires without accident (~23?)! What Tesla knew from the beginning is that their NCA cathode is VERY instable and has few reserves for delithiation beyond normal operating limits!

That the situation would get worse with battery degradation they knew too!

It was just a matter of time until scrutiny from regulators would come!

Reducing the EOCV by ~130 mV is an effective way to make a disbalanced cell safe again. The charging curve (BC omitted, threshold CC/CV lowered) and thermal management got adapted too, so the problem seems to be solved for them (but not for you as you are loosing usability of your cars)!

I think your chances in a legal action are good, because all that happened was previsible years ago.

Do you have any documentation of this you can share with the group?

 

[jaitch]

Then that v9 bad baby can't wait to meet your battery ...

Just out of interest what is meant by V8 and V9 firmware? Is that shortform for 2018... and 2019...?

 

[Gixx1300R]

Slower charging speeds is not what I paid for
Decreased range initiated by Tesla is not what I paid for
Increase cost for home charging due to decreased range is not what I paid for
Lower value of my car is not what I paid for
Less Performance is not what I paid for

If older battery chemistry is prone to fires then Tesla should do a recall and install battery packs that are not prone to fire. The older battery packs have a different chemistry. I don't expect Tesla to do the right thing. Looks like lawsuits will have to be filed since they aren't forthcoming with any info.

 

[dhanson865]

Just out of interest what is meant by V8 and V9 firmware? Is that shortform for 2018... and 2019...?

V8 is more like 2016 - 2018

V9 is more like 2018 to 2020?

Purely about what the software can do and the version numbers, not an abbreviation of the year.

Tesla V9 Versus V8 Software Compared: Video

Tesla Software V8.0 -- Major Overhaul, Improvements To Autopilot, New Cabin Overheating Protection Feature, Modern Look, Etc. | CleanTechnica

but the actual build numbers have a year/weeks built in. So 2019.16.3.2 is from 2019 week 16 and had multiple subversions in that week.

 

[mjmiron]

I called into Tesla on the roadside assistance number and they checked my battery as well. I was given the same info about the reduction in range and charging ability and that they are trying to create a fix to help the range return. I have drained the battery and recharged cycling it from 20-90% with no avail. I asked what the timeline was for a fix and was told they are simply working on it.

I am not sitting around putting this online anymore I contacted Tesla and told them I want to file a battery claim with the local service center. I also notified the local news here this needs to be fixed and I am not happy. I am also contact my states attorney general as well and filing a complaint.

 

[lightningltd]

I called into Tesla on the roadside assistance number and they checked my battery as well. I was given the same info about the reduction in range and charging ability and that they are trying to create a fix to help the range return. I have drained the battery and recharged cycling it from 20-90% with no avail. I asked what the timeline was for a fix and was told they are simply working on it.

Knowing Tesla, they are planning to take 40 miles and give back 5 with the fix
And by the way, 60kw charging SUX!

 

[Droschke]

Just out of interest what is meant by V8 and V9 firmware? Is that shortform for 2018... and 2019...?

@dhanson865 already explained. Also, take a look under the Software tab on your 17" display. It lists your 2019.x.z as V9, etc.

 

[Droschke]

I called into Tesla on the roadside assistance number and they checked my battery as well. I was given the same info about the reduction in range and charging ability and that they are trying to create a fix to help the range return. I have drained the battery and recharged cycling it from 20-90% with no avail. I asked what the timeline was for a fix and was told they are simply working on it.

I am not sitting around putting this online anymore I contacted Tesla and told them I want to file a battery claim with the local service center. I also notified the local news here this needs to be fixed and I am not happy.

I'm skeptical about a software fix for range return. If I understand it correctly, the Li-Plating is not reversible by a significant amount. @IngTH , @egn1 and @wk057 comments on the viability of a software fix to safely reclaim the range loss would be appreciated.

If these batteries were not safe and that forced Tesla to cap the capacity in order to avoid further hazard I definitely do not want to take back the range loss and live with a unsafe battery just because of the public pressure. If the batteries are unsafe with the pre-update range they need to be replaced under warranty.

P.S. There has to be a clear distinction between a battery pack that has safely degraded (normal) and the one which is in an unsafe state (abnormal).

 

[DJRas]

I just received this email in response to my support inquiry on June 17 (!!!)
It is clearly full of misrepresentations of facts (lies) and obfuscation of the issue (REAL loss of range)!

"Hello,

Thank you for contacting Tesla! Please allow me to apologize for the delay in our response to this email.

There are many factors involved in the actual range of your Tesla, and why you may feel that your actual range or charge capacity does not match up to the high voltage pack capacity. The battery pack is sized to provide range. Our range is carefully calculated and measured according to rigorously reviewed standards, as well as an on-board algorithm that constantly learns your driving habits and adjusts the predicted range accordingly. In contrast, a vehicle’s battery pack energy capacity varies with the rate of discharge and cell temperature.

Please note that our recent firmware updates included an update to the range estimation algorithm to be more accurate, and some customers may experience what they think is a drop in range, but this generally normalizes after a few weeks of driving. Please also note that since the range estimation is more accurate, it will better indicate the range it predicts based upon your driving habits.

If there is a concern with the range of the vehicle, we will be happy to work through this to address any issues being experienced.

To improve your range, please see these tips:

Personal driving habits have the greatest impact on the range of your vehicle
Drive the speed limit and avoid frequent and rapid acceleration.
Better utilize, and/or adjust the sensitivity for Regenerative Braking (Standard is recommended)
Keep tires at standard air pressure.
Lighten cargo load by removing unnecessary items.
Keep windows closed for better aerodynamic efficiency.
Limit the use of resources such as heating and air conditioning. Using seat heaters to keep warm is more efficient than heating the cabin.
Enable Range Mode
Controls > Driving > Range Mode
Environmental Factors
Exposure to rapid temperature changes, or long exposure to extreme heat, or cold can effect the expected range. (This effect is not permanent, and does not change the health and degradation of the battery over time)
More Range Tips can be found in the "Getting Maximum Range" section of the Owner's Manual

Please visit our Support Page, which covers frequently asked questions about Tesla and your vehicle. If you have any further questions or concerns, you can reach one of our Chat Agents at Tesla.com or Customer Support 24/7 at Contact | Tesla

Best Regards,

Bryce W | Tesla Support
12832 Frontrunner Blvd., Draper, UT 84020
www.tesla.com/support

"

 

[lightningltd]

I just received this email in response to my support inquiry on June 17 (!!!)
It is clearly full of misrepresentations of facts (lies) and obfuscation of the issue (REAL loss of range)!

"Hello,

Thank you for contacting Tesla! Please allow me to apologize for the delay in our response to this email.

There are many factors involved in the actual range of your Tesla, and why you may feel that your actual range or charge capacity does not match up to the high voltage pack capacity. The battery pack is sized to provide range. Our range is carefully calculated and measured according to rigorously reviewed standards, as well as an on-board algorithm that constantly learns your driving habits and adjusts the predicted range accordingly. In contrast, a vehicle’s battery pack energy capacity varies with the rate of discharge and cell temperature.

Please note that our recent firmware updates included an update to the range estimation algorithm to be more accurate, and some customers may experience what they think is a drop in range, but this generally normalizes after a few weeks of driving. Please also note that since the range estimation is more accurate, it will better indicate the range it predicts based upon your driving habits.

If there is a concern with the range of the vehicle, we will be happy to work through this to address any issues being experienced.

To improve your range, please see these tips:

Personal driving habits have the greatest impact on the range of your vehicle
Drive the speed limit and avoid frequent and rapid acceleration.
Better utilize, and/or adjust the sensitivity for Regenerative Braking (Standard is recommended)
Keep tires at standard air pressure.
Lighten cargo load by removing unnecessary items.
Keep windows closed for better aerodynamic efficiency.
Limit the use of resources such as heating and air conditioning. Using seat heaters to keep warm is more efficient than heating the cabin.
Enable Range Mode
Controls > Driving > Range Mode
Environmental Factors
Exposure to rapid temperature changes, or long exposure to extreme heat, or cold can effect the expected range. (This effect is not permanent, and does not change the health and degradation of the battery over time)
More Range Tips can be found in the "Getting Maximum Range" section of the Owner's Manual

Please visit our Support Page, which covers frequently asked questions about Tesla and your vehicle. If you have any further questions or concerns, you can reach one of our Chat Agents at Tesla.com or Customer Support 24/7 at Contact | Tesla

Best Regards,

Bryce W | Tesla Support
12832 Frontrunner Blvd., Draper, UT 84020
www.tesla.com/support

"

Wow. What a load of crap.
What part of RAYED RANGE do they not understand?
What part of MAX KW of the battery at 100% charge do they not understand?

This response looks like GREAT evidence of a cover up to me!

 

[mjmiron]

I got this BS response again from local service they are escalating to management. I flat out told my local service center I want to file a battery claim and I am not fing backing down.


We are aware that a very small percentage of owners who own older Model S and Model X vehicles may notice a small reduction in range when charging to a maximum state of charge.
This occurred following a software update that we released last month to protect the battery and improve battery longevity of Model S and X cars, and does not have any other impact to the vehicle. While charging behavior will always vary based on how a vehicle is driven, charged, vehicle age, and other factors, we are working to improve the impact on range for this small group of owners.

 

[lightningltd]

I got this BS response again from local service they are escalating to management. I flat out told my local service center I want to file a battery claim and I am not fing backing down.


We are aware that a very small percentage of owners who own older Model S and Model X vehicles may notice a small reduction in range when charging to a maximum state of charge.
This occurred following a software update that we released last month to protect the battery and improve battery longevity of Model S and X cars, and does not have any other impact to the vehicle. While charging behavior will always vary based on how a vehicle is driven, charged, vehicle age, and other factors, we are working to improve the impact on range for this small group of owners.

You will likely get the verbatim response as in #1615 (DJRas). Seems to be the new 'official' line.

 

[NickleNiceness]

Damn it - just learn to drive with your windows up if you want your range back

 

[Droschke]

To improve your range, please see these tips:

Personal driving habits have the greatest impact on the range of your vehicle
Drive the speed limit and avoid frequent and rapid acceleration.
Better utilize, and/or adjust the sensitivity for Regenerative Braking (Standard is recommended)
Keep tires at standard air pressure.
Lighten cargo load by removing unnecessary items.
Keep windows closed for better aerodynamic efficiency.
Limit the use of resources such as heating and air conditioning. Using seat heaters to keep warm is more efficient than heating the cabin.
Enable Range Mode
Controls > Driving > Range Mode
Environmental Factors
Exposure to rapid temperature changes, or long exposure to extreme heat, or cold can effect the expected range. (This effect is not permanent, and does not change the health and degradation of the battery over time)
More Range Tips can be found in the "Getting Maximum Range" section of the Owner's Manual

Honestly, I find this copy/pasted script sent to the impacted owners as an official response very insulting.

 

[egn1]

Regarding the "Tesla is trying to" part of your post, is that your educated guess or you have a link you can share with us as to the source of your statement?

It is an educated guess by combining information about the reason why lithium batteries start burning when car is parked, and the fact that not all cars have the same loss or even no loss.