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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

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The louvers are fine.. All this happened immediately after the update took away the capacity and some of the power. The day prior to the update, I was able to charge to my full range and at 120kw and have no power limitation except then the battery had below 120 miles left.
This is odd since my first 2019.16.1.1 update took away 3 miles at first but I was able to charge at full speed and for longer since they had already imposed a limit prior. Then after the next firmware update (maybe 2nd), this was taken away again and made worse.
 
Has anyone that had a range drop received a newer firmware update? I never got any range drop, skipped 16.2 (16.1 - 16.3) and just got 24.1.5 last night. Charging speed, range, almost everything has been pretty much the same for 40k miles besides maybe regen sensitivity in cold temperature (& maybe charging in cold?)
I have not gotten any updates since update 20.21 I have 2015 85D range loss was about 30 miles. I have a service appt at the end of the month
 
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Finally, I think this problem will not be that visible with cells with silicon in the anode, because there can the lithium ions be intercalated more easily.
The mechanism of the Si in the SiC composite anode is conversion not intercalation! So its a mixture of intercalation to graphite and conversion on Si. The potential of the SiC anode is slightly higher (14mV) than the pure graphite anode, so its slightly better protected against Li-plating, but the mechanic stress on the SEI is higher, so SEI may loose its elastaticity earlier and dendrites may rupture it.
 
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Further complicating the calculations is the "buffer". People keep speculating whether it is or is not included in range calculation.

MY calculation shows the buffer is NOT included but that Tesla at some point has manipulated the Wh/mile constant used.

Based on my calculations and a few other have confirmed it, the buffer is included when the battery is charged fully and it is not included when the battery is empty. The BMS changes the calculation gradually in between. That's what makes this so much harder to use simple math to determine capacity. When full the 295 number adds up perfectly to include the buffer, when close to zero a lower consumption rate explains the amount of energy used vs range. That's the problem! Range estimate from the car changes gradually from one to the other as you discharge the battery.

I have also noticed that when I start a trip with say 50 kWh on my battery, then use 45 kWh on the trip, I don't end up with 5 kWh left. I end up with 4 to 4.8 left. So as I'm driving, energy is lost somewhere.

Since battery capacity isn't a quantity that can be measured directly (only indirectly by measuring how much you were able to take out, which depends on many variables), I think we are not getting anywhere trying to use kWh numbers from the BMS as hard numbers.
 
I just received a text from the SC from my visit last Friday:

"Hi Robbie, we are reaching out from Tesla Service. Just want to update you on your range/charging concern. So I had your information reviewed by engineering and they stated that they are currently working on further updates to try and restore some of the mileage that had been lost for the affected customers. Currently we do not have an ETA on when the update will be available but they are actively working on it so it should hopefully be soon. Thank you."
 
Tesla BMS is considered as good as it gets, so I question whether charging a cold battery matters; does the software not warm the battery first before charging if required?

The BMS is warming the cells before charging. But the parameters set are not optimal, especially when supercharging. There are several studies that show that charging at 50 F ist bad for cycle life.

Over the last few years Tesla constantly improved the parameters by increasing temperature more and more and reduce charge power relative to current temperature. This was very annoying last winter here in Europe. But the older cells may have already developed lithium plating, which cannot be reversed.

Tesla cars have relatively high consumption in winter on short trips, which is also caused by heating the battery, but it can also be turned off partly by using range mode. Tesla had some compromise in place, but it seems to be that it backfires now.

In contrast the new Audi e-tron has compared to MX a much higher consumption in winter, especially because of battery warming, and was blamed for this in all consumption and range test. But on the other side this may reduce risk of lithium plating considerably, for cars used in cold climates.

The Leaf batteries were killed by high temperature, the Tesla batteries may be killed by charging them to fast at low temperature.

But this may be fixed for new batteries in the future by better heating at the cost of higher consumption in cold climates.
 
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Based on my calculations and a few other have confirmed it, the buffer is included when the battery is charged fully and it is not included when the battery is empty. The BMS changes the calculation gradually in between. That's what makes this so much harder to use simple math to determine capacity. When full the 295 number adds up perfectly to include the buffer, when close to zero a lower consumption rate explains the amount of energy used vs range. That's the problem! Range estimate from the car changes gradually from one to the other as you discharge the battery.

I have also noticed that when I start a trip with say 50 kWh on my battery, then use 45 kWh on the trip, I don't end up with 5 kWh left. I end up with 4 to 4.8 left. So as I'm driving, energy is lost somewhere.

Since battery capacity isn't a quantity that can be measured directly (only indirectly by measuring how much you were able to take out, which depends on many variables), I think we are not getting anywhere trying to use kWh numbers from the BMS as hard numbers.

@David99, when I use Scan My Tesla, the 4.0 kWh "buffer" shows up the entire time from 100% SOC to 0% SOC (or even -1.0% SOC). Here are 3 examples on me 90D (but with 100,000 miles at the time it was down to a 75.0 kWh max pack). After losing the buffer that showed up in an update 1 or 2 yrs ago it means it's basically a 70D at this point. :confused:

upload_2019-7-16_14-16-7.png
 
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Did you not even click on the link? It's to a page on this forum, in this very thread. Exactly why I asked if you didn't read half the pages of this thread.

How are the admins on the other forum going to delete posts on this one? You are talking complete nonsense.

So I have to assume you aren't reading much of anything in this thread, just posting whatever you want to say without considering anything that anyone else posted in a thread with 1500+ posts.
The post you responded to was me addressing the concern that Tesla is deleting threads regarding this issue on their own forums at Tesla.com. It had nothing to do with TMC. Maybe you are confused.
 
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So i got a call back from the MN Service Center and they basically told me the battery is going through a recalibration. And that the miles shown are not correct and will adjust based on my driving habits. They also said my battery was healthy from their check remotely. I call bs i will watch this over the next two weeks but i highly doubt what i was told. I am still going to bring the car in for service to have the battery checked and run diagnostics. What test do you recommend i have them do to see if the capacity is truly limited? Or what tools do i need to check this myself?
 
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Hi,

I also own a S85 with about 75.000 miles, but it lost only about 5 miles after the update, so far.

I think degradation of the battery wasn't defined very well, so far.

We all thought that the current amount of energy available at full charge of 4,2 V divided by the amount of energy of a new battery charged to 4,2 V subtracted from 1 and multiplied by 100 will be the degradation in percent. In pure physical terms this may be true, but technically this doesn't take the internal chemical changes in the battery into account, that have influence on usability (internal resistance) and safety (lithium plating). Up to the firmware update, causing a drastically lower range being displayed, it seems to be that Tesla, when calculating the state-of-health of the battery in form of the capacity for full charge, didn't take the usability and safety much into account. So over time the lithium plating of the cells, caused by high charge power at high SOC and low battery temperature, is increasing more and more, until the separator is punctured, causing internal shorts and my finally cause battery fire. That this happened only a few times up to now, even there are billions of cells in use, is a wonder. This shows that Tesla has done a good job in improving the BMS over time. The last changes definitely go into the same direction.

As has been already written, Tesla may now detect the health of the battery regarding safety better, by detecting the lithium plating through differential voltage analysis, when charging to 100 %. If the voltage starts to rise with a higher slope than normal, charging is stopped. The reason for this sharp rise is that the lithium ions cannot be intercalated into the graphite anode fast enough, which finally increase lithium plating further.

So I agree with those that say that the degradation (capacity, usability and safety) was already there. We just didn't see it until Tesla introduced the new software. In my opinion Tesla is not at fault regarding making the real degradation visible here, but it is certainly at fault regarding the missing communication. If only a few owners are hit very hard, by losing more than 10 % of there range, then it should be also possible to replace the batteries by refurbished ones. The parameters should be transparent.

Taking this into account, I can only warn people to constantly test the battery capacity with 100 % charges. They may make the situation even worse, because nobody knows if Tesla is already stopping charging early enough to prevent further lithium plating. It is better to use either ScanMyTesla or TM-Spy to read out the BMS values, but charging to lower SOC and dividing the displayed range by the SOC percentage, will also be good enough.

How can the risk of lithium plating reduced?
  • Don't charge to high SOC
  • Don't charge when battery is cold
  • Don't charge with range mode on when battery is cold
Charging in summer with warm battery is not that much of a problem. Just charge immediately before a road trip to the SOC that is required.

In winter it is better to charge immediately after the trip, when the battery is still warm. But avoid charging to more than 80 % if possible.

Keeping the car at SOC of 10 - 20 % most of the time, gives the chance to reverse lithium plating a bit.

BTW, I don't see the loss of capacity and the lower charge rates at the SuC as separate issues. Both work together in reducing the chance of lithium plating. So at least all owners of vehicles with S85 cell type may have to live with more visible degradation and lower charge rates.

Finally, I think this problem will not be that visible with cells with silicon in the anode, because there can the lithium ions be intercalated more easily.

I hope this helps,
Emil

Your conflating whats best for the battery which is a user choice vs never having access to existing range again even if it's something you rarely take advantage of but occasionally use when it's an absolute must.

Any normally degraded lithium ion cell can be safely charged to 4.2 volts regardless of how much capacity has been lost. It may require charging slower to get there as IR increases but you can always still get there....unless the battery has attained a condition that would make it dangerous to charge that high. None of the 30+ hobby chargers, some of them very smart, prevent you from charging to full capacity on any cell.
 
Degradation visible in the crowd sourced data took only account the range calculated from the calculated full range by the BMS at the time of reading. The BMS algorithm has changed slightly from time to time.

The BMS formula for calculating rated range has always been based on the EPA wh / mile devided into the existing kWh capacity of the battery.

The BMS now reports less physical capacity that actually exists in the effected cases which is why I'm sticking with v8 as long as possible.
 
I previously mentioned that I had done a lot of regen on cold soaked batteries coming back from ski trips. I've also spent the equivalent of probably a month, over the years, sitting out our lodge with 110v volt trickle charging the battery at 30F temps during the day and near 0F during the middle of the night.

Any idea what kind of effect really slow charging at these temps will have on li plating? Also, nearly all of that was with range mode on which I know does not as aggressively manage the battery temp in extreme conditions. Starting at 50K miles I turned off range mode pretty much forever.
 
@David99, when I use Scan My Tesla, the 4.0 kWh "buffer" shows up the entire time from 100% SOC to 0% SOC (or even -1.0% SOC). Here are 3 examples on me 90D (but with 100,000 miles at the time it was down to a 75.0 kWh max pack). After losing the buffer that showed up in an update 1 or 2 yrs ago it means it's basically a 70D at this point. :confused:

Do you have the rated miles that go with each of those 3 scans? That would be helpful to evaluate. I'm guessing it would be 259,131, and 5 miles, or at least close to that.
 
@David99, when I use Scan My Tesla, the 4.0 kWh "buffer" shows up the entire time from 100% SOC to 0% SOC (or even -1.0% SOC). Here are 3 examples on me 90D (but with 100,000 miles at the time it was down to a 75.0 kWh max pack). After losing the buffer that showed up in an update 1 or 2 yrs ago it means it's basically a 70D at this point. :confused:

Thank you!
Yes, the buffer is always there and your SOC matches Usable Reaming divided by Usable Full Pack.
What is your Full Rated Range?
This will help with my Wh/Mi calculations for various batteries.
Yes, you effectively have a 75 kWh battery (74.9 - 4 = 70.9)

Mine is now at 60.4 kWh Usable.
 
So i got a call back from the MN Service Center and they basically told me the battery is going through a recalibration. And that the miles shown are not correct and will adjust based on my driving habits. They also said my battery was healthy from their check remotely. I call bs i will watch this over the next two weeks but i highly doubt what i was told. I am still going to bring the car in for service to have the battery checked and run diagnostics. What test do you recommend i have them do to see if the capacity is truly limited? Or what tools do i need to check this myself?
The miles shown are a constant times the Usable Remaining kWh.
This will not change unless they restore (or take more away) kWh to your pack.
 
So i got a call back from the MN Service Center and they basically told me the battery is going through a recalibration. And that the miles shown are not correct and will adjust based on my driving habits. They also said my battery was healthy from their check remotely. I call bs i will watch this over the next two weeks but i highly doubt what i was told. I am still going to bring the car in for service to have the battery checked and run diagnostics. What test do you recommend i have them do to see if the capacity is truly limited? Or what tools do i need to check this myself?

I call BS as well on their 'claim' that it is rebalancing and calculating based on driving habits. It is showing RATED range, which is a CONSTANT based on KW left in the battery.
The problem is, that they REDUCED the KW the battery holds. Plain and simple. If I wanted a 60KW battery, I would not have paid for an 85.

They need to come clean as to what the REAL problem is before range gate gets too much more out of hand, and to stop feeding the techs at the service centers incorrect or misleading information.
There is plenty of proof in this thread to show what they have done.
 
The BMS formula for calculating rated range has always been based on the EPA wh / mile devided into the existing kWh capacity of the battery.

The BMS now reports less physical capacity that actually exists in the effected cases which is why I'm sticking with v8 as long as possible.
I have TONS of data showing that the Rated Range displayed is the Usable Remaining kWh divided by 0.276 (NOT 295 EPA rating).
It DOES however predate May 15, 2019 release 2019.16.1.1
I have a dataset from Feb 7, 2019 that also shows the lower constant.
 

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