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Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

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Maybe I will make a longer post about this, if anyone is interested.

Welcome to TMC! Thanks for your info, and not to push you out (keep it coming!) but I also recommend checking out some of the other threads, TMC is a remarkable collection of useful Tesla information and you might get the wrong impression if this scandal is your only experience here. TMC is a wealth of great Tesla trivia and owners have build some great addons, etc.

I'm interested, please share!
 
Maybe I will make a longer post about this, if anyone is interested.

I'm interested. Please do. And, don't let the detractors distract you. Even if you say one slightly debatable word in your multiple paragraph of good information they disagree with you. The proof is right there at the bottom of your post and the subsequent nitpick one-liner rebuttal you already have received. Please do not hesitate to give us more info.
 
No, they didn't change the cells between the "A" and "B" packs. The difference was the internal wiring was beefed up.
Being a bit of a Luddite, but always keen to learn, can you explain how beefing up the wiring results in a 6% increase (85 kWh to 90 kWh)? I do seem to remember Tesla describing it as something like due to improved cell chemistry, although I also seem to remember the 90 was regarded as the least amount of Useable for your buck, barely more than 80 kWh or similar? And I certainly thought that was due to the change to the addition of Silicon into the Anode. But I’m conscious the grey cells are degrading, as well as other cells I own. My A pack was (is) certainly able to charge at higher than 90kW, and occasionally, ie 2 or 3 times, has dipped above 100 kW but has never been able to match the speed of B Packs.
 
The 90 was essentially a real 85kwh, while the 85 was an 81kwh pack (77? I've heard both). It's the same physical battery - same arrangement and number of cells; they were able to use a new chemistry that was slightly more energy dense. Unfortunately, that chemistry also degraded much more quickly than previous Tesla batteries.
 
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Being a bit of a Luddite, but always keen to learn, can you explain how beefing up the wiring results in a 6% increase (85 kWh to 90 kWh)? I do seem to remember Tesla describing it as something like due to improved cell chemistry, although I also seem to remember the 90 was regarded as the least amount of Useable for your buck, barely more than 80 kWh or similar? And I certainly thought that was due to the change to the addition of Silicon into the Anode. But I’m conscious the grey cells are degrading, as well as other cells I own. My A pack was (is) certainly able to charge at higher than 90kW, and occasionally, ie 2 or 3 times, has dipped above 100 kW but has never been able to match the speed of B Packs.

You are talking about the change from the 85kWh packs to the 90kWh packs. The poster I was replying to was talking about the difference in Supercharging speed between the "A" 85kWh packs and the "B" 85 kWh packs. And to go from 90kW to 120kW required beefing up the internal wiring.
 
Welcome to TMC! Thanks for your info, and not to push you out (keep it coming!) but I also recommend checking out some of the other threads, TMC is a remarkable collection of useful Tesla information and you might get the wrong impression if this scandal is your only experience here. TMC is a wealth of great Tesla trivia and owners have build some great addons, etc.

I'm interested, please share!

@Alchemist42 is not new to this thread. He has posted few very informative, and yet humble, posts for us.
 
Oh I know, he's just only ever posted to this thread on TMC and I don't want to lose him if he gets pushed away by the disagreeables. He responded to one that seems to auto disagree with everything, and I wanted to make sure he knows he's welcome.

@Alchemist42 - you can ignore by clicking their name and then the "ignore" button on the little window that pops up, I find it helps for the more extreme automated-disagree style accounts.
 
Being a bit of a Luddite, but always keen to learn, can you explain how beefing up the wiring results in a 6% increase (85 kWh to 90 kWh)? I do seem to remember Tesla describing it as something like due to improved cell chemistry, although I also seem to remember the 90 was regarded as the least amount of Useable for your buck, barely more than 80 kWh or similar? And I certainly thought that was due to the change to the addition of Silicon into the Anode. But I’m conscious the grey cells are degrading, as well as other cells I own. My A pack was (is) certainly able to charge at higher than 90kW, and occasionally, ie 2 or 3 times, has dipped above 100 kW but has never been able to match the speed of B Packs.

I think you are confusing two different changes - What I'm talking about are the muliple revisions of the "85" battery pack which went from A over B to at least D or E (I lost track there somewhere). Those had some differences that Tesla never really disclosed, but the most noticeable change was an increase in supercharging speed between the "A" and "B" revisions.
You are right about the usable capacities. The "85" had around 76kWh usable and the "90" around 81 if I'm not mistaken.


You are talking about the change from the 85kWh packs to the 90kWh packs. The poster I was replying to was talking about the difference in Supercharging speed between the "A" 85kWh packs and the "B" 85 kWh packs. And to go from 90kW to 120kW required beefing up the internal wiring.

Would you mind explaining what wiring in particular was updated? It can't be the charging cables since some owners with "A" batteries reported faster supercharging after recieving a newer battery under warranty. Wiring inside the pack seems unlikely as well since the wiring has to be designed for 300+ kW from the start since the car will pull that much under full acceleration.
 
Oh I know, he's just only ever posted to this thread on TMC and I don't want to lose him if he gets pushed away by the disagreeables. He responded to one that seems to auto disagree with everything, and I wanted to make sure he knows he's welcome.

@Alchemist42 - you can ignore by clicking their name and then the "ignore" button on the little window that pops up, I find it helps for the more extreme automated-disagree style accounts.

The poster with the "auto-disagree" finger could not even bring himself up to agree with the 90% of the Alchemist42 informative post.

But bold enough to make it known he disagrees with one line though. Oh, brother! I wonder how many of those 9000 are just auto-disagrees!
 
CC-CV charging at 3A (1C) or more is definitely hurting the battery and not advisable in any case.
Fast charging is a compromise. The problem in real charging is: Temperature. What do you do with a car that arrives at SuC station with a battery that has 50°F?
Tesla encounters the problem by high initial current to heat up the cell by its (relatively high) internal resistance. But apparently they underestimated Li-plating a bit, especially for cells beyond BOL. They corrected now thermal management in a very agressive way, which helps to save what can be saved at the risk of a higher cathode degradation.

I posted the graph to help users to understand better the way they should charge in order to mantain longevity of their packs.

And for the versions of NCR18650. Forget about the rumour that Tesla has added a miracle powder to prevent Li-plating. They were using a (V)HE cell with graphite anode, thats all. No room for miracles!
And please don't bother that only Tesla batteries show Li-stripping after longterm storage. This is a common mechanism.
 
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You are talking about the change from the 85kWh packs to the 90kWh packs. The poster I was replying to was talking about the difference in Supercharging speed between the "A" 85kWh packs and the "B" 85 kWh packs. And to go from 90kW to 120kW required beefing up the internal wiring.
Ah, that explains it. Thought I was missing a trick. Many thanks (for the explanation and the patience). Just submitted my official written complaint today viz batterygate, and thought I had one of my key points wrong.
 
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Fast charging is a compromise. The problem in real charging is: Temperature. What do you do with a car that arrives at SuC station with a battery that has 50°F?
Tesla encounters the problem by high initial current to heat up the cell by its (relatively high) internal resistance. But apparently they underestimated Li-plating a bit, especially for cells beyond BOL. They corrected now thermal management in a very agressive way, which helps to save what can be saved at the risk of a higher cathode degradation.

I posted the graph to help users to understand better the way they should charge in order to mantain longevity of their packs.

And for the versions of NCR18650. Forget about the rumour that Tesla has added a miracle powder to prevent Li-plating. They were using a (V)HE cell with graphite anode, thats all. No room for miracles!
And please don't bother that only Tesla batteries show Li-stripping after longterm storage. This is a common mechanism.

Thanks for the detailed reply! I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I just wanted to show the relevant charts for supercharging from the paper as well and that the exact charging protocol can make quite a difference to cycle performance. I might have misinterpreted that you wanted to say the 3A CC-CV curve was equivalent to a SuC session, which it is obviously not. Sorry for that.

I agree that Tesla was probably pushing the boundaries of supercharging too far, which is par for the course with Elon - he pretty much has the opinion that if you're not failing from time to time, you're not trying hard enough. Unfortunately, an unmanned rocket blowing up on landing does not carry as much concequence as tens of thousands of customer cars... I just hope they have learned from that. The 250kW charging on the Model 3 smells fishy.

I'm not saying they performed any sort of miracle. Just that they stress at every possibility that the chemistry in the cars is different from any cell on the free market. And improvements to internal resistance are comparatively easy compared to capacity increases. The NCR18650PD came out in 2011, there have been some significant incremental improvements in that field since then. Just look at the power output of Tesla's respective flagships. The original P85D could hardly manage to deliver more power than the good old P85 (see: 691gate), but soon after there were new battery revisions and a current P100DL absolutely crushes the P85D. Of course the 100 has 18% more battery cells, but the power increase is much more than that. So at least the power delivery has improved massively, I think it is reasonable to suggest that an uptick in charging capability came with it.

I never disputed that Li-stripping was a common mechanism, I just pointed out that Tesla cells (and their relatives...) are apparently quite good at it, compared to some other chemistries (for example the Samsung 30Q).

May I quote the relevant section from the dissertation:

"Recovery Effects
Different recovery effects have been observed in the three aging studies presented in this thesis. The capacity recovery of cells stored or cycled at high SoC only could be explained by lithium diffusion into the overhang areas of the anode. The amount of lithium stored in the overhang areas becomes inaccessible for charge-discharge cycling. However, a considerable amount of lithium returns when the cells are at low or medium SoC for a longer time. In contrast to this regeneration mechanism, the recovery effects after severe degradation owing to lithium plating have not been fully understood yet. The mechanisms behind short-term capacity recovery and long-term recovery of electrode-specific storage capabilities should be subject to further research."
 
Would you mind explaining what wiring in particular was updated? It can't be the charging cables since some owners with "A" batteries reported faster supercharging after recieving a newer battery under warranty. Wiring inside the pack seems unlikely as well since the wiring has to be designed for 300+ kW from the start since the car will pull that much under full acceleration.

You would have to find the posts by WK057, but I think it was the bus bars that were changed. And the issue was likely heat build up from the length of time charging, while the 300kW for driving is not continuous. (Like they can burst ~750A through the charging infrastructure that is only rated for 350A continuous.)

Here are the two related posts that I could find quickly:

Has anyone been able to supercharge above 90 kW with a remanufactured or "upgraded" A pack? I remember Jerome said in an email to an owner that the A packs had different cabling and whatnot that could not handle more than 90 kW, therefore those packs were software limited. I wonder if part of the upgrading of A packs involves changing out this hardware to allow for faster charging?

Changing the one actual cable (the 2/0 gauge wire that runs down the spine in the D pack I tore down) and the bus bars that connect the modules would be a complicated and time consuming task. My guess would be that they do not touch any of this since it would require a nearly complete breakdown of the pack to get to these components.

I would be curious as to what the actual limiting factor is with the A-packs. Since a P85 with an A-pack can still output 320kW via the same connections, obviously the cabling can handle 120kW. My guess here is that it couldn't do so for more than short periods of time without too much heat.
 
Tesla encounters the problem by high initial current to heat up the cell by its (relatively high) internal resistance. But apparently they underestimated Li-plating a bit, especially for cells beyond BOL.

Looks to me, by shoving high amperage to these packs (a wild west mentality to me) they have damaged (Li-Plated prematurely) some of these packs, i.e., the impacted owners' packs. Do you concur?
 
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Just that they stress at every possibility that the chemistry in the cars is different from any cell on the free market. And improvements to internal resistance are comparatively easy compared to capacity increases.
And this is what customers should believe. From wk057s diagrams you can read the internal resistance being according to the datasheet.

Please don't mix the graphite anode with SiC composite anodes!

And the recovery from anode overhang (a common feature too) is another mechanism than Li-stripping!
 
I agree that Tesla was probably pushing the boundaries of supercharging too far,

In expense of damaging (Premature Li-Plating) our batteries. They own this one.

The 250kW charging on the Model 3 smells fishy.

Smells rotten fishy, especially if you consider it was all to negate the BMW, Mercedes, Ford, and Volkswagen/Audi/Porsche's 350 KW charging initiative publicity.

Musk on Twitter: "A mere 350 kW ... what are you referring to, a children's toy?"
 
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Looks to me, by shoving high amperage to these packs (a wild west mentality to me) they have damaged (Li-Plated prematurely) some of these packs, i.e., the impacted owners' packs. Do you concur?
From the dissertation (what Alchemist forgot to post):

A comparison with 2.0 A CCCV charging, depicted in Figure 52, reveals a considerably faster degradation for supercharging, although the total charging time differs only in the order of 10%. Hence, the high initial charging currents have led to disproportionate degradation. The increases in Rac,1kHz, shown in Figure 71b and Figure 71d, reveal side reactions entailing a decomposition of the electrolyte. Based on these results, lithium plating can be identified as the main driver of degradation for charging with the SC protocols. Due to the poor cycle life performance, the cycling sequence was terminated already after ca. 120 EFC.

Two modifications of the basis SC test protocols were also examined. At first, the discharging voltage was increased from 2.5 V to 3.2 V to reduce the stress at very low SoC. Furthermore, the boost intensity was reduced: During the boost interval, the charging power of 14 W was replaced by a constant current of 3 A to obtain a better comparability to the experiments on CCCV and BC protocols. The boost periods ended when the cell voltage reached 3.9 V, which was identical to the first SC protocols. As illustrated in Figure 71, the increase of the discharging voltage reduces the degradation also for the SC protocols. Capacity fade and resistance increase are lower (see
SC (3.2V)). The lowering of the boost charging currents from ca. 3.7 A to 3 A (see SC-3A (3.2V)) entails a marked improvement compared to the first SC variant. However, the capacity fade and the resistance increase still remains considerably worse than for the 1.0 A CCCV reference protocol, particularly when comparing the curves to those for discharging to 3.2 V only (see CCCV (3.2V)). As
shown in Figure 71c, 500 EFC were obtained for the SC-3A protocol in combination with a charging voltage of 4.1 V before reaching a capacity fade of 20%. However, this is more than twice the capacity fade from 1.0 A CCCV charging for the same discharging voltage of 3.2 V. Overall, substantially higher stress is observed for all SC charging protocols due to their high initial charging
currents, although the charging currents were adapted to the SoC of the cell.

You see they already changed protocol years ago, but still too much relying on BOL phase of cells and thermal management not perfectly adopted?

But i'm far away from blaming them, fast charging is a compromise, especially for NCA cathode cells (NCM can go to 138°F while charging).