Wiki Sudden Loss Of Range With 2019.16.x Software

[Guy V]

I guess he is just saying because he "makes perfect sense"

Personally I am not always perfectly sensible hence a 2013 P85, but since he claims to be I was leaning towards him not intending to be helpful and constructive, but that's just based on subjective evidence.

 

[hcdavis3]

This just happened to
TeslaFi.com Tesla Model S 3 X Y Data Logger

 

[mymagiccarpet]

People with reduce range should show that to their service centers and see what they say.

Some have, and they say:
- your battery checks out ok
- you have too many supercharging sessions
- it's degradation
- it was done for longevity and to protect battery pack
- sorry but nothing we can do about it
- hey but we've improved the efficiency of your car so you should get some of that back
- capacity depends on many factors
- etc etc...
Basically, go away

 

[Chaserr]

You left out "You're part of a test group and we aren't allowed to do anything to fix it" but I guess "GO AWAY!" covered that. There's quite a few former owners that have gone away from Tesla over this problem. I don't want to be one of them, but I won't buy another one until it's fixed and I'm shopping for one now. I actually came withing a click of ordering a Standard Range Raven - glad I didn't or I'd be angry at myself for buying another battery that has the problem.

 

[hpartsch]

Thanks for this info. This explains why since last summer, I suddenly had to change AC temp on auto by 4-5 degrees. It was an update in June, so following May 15th update, and not part of it. Used to be 74deg was plenty good to keep me comfortable in the cabin. Suddenly after an update, 74 was causing everyone in the cabin to sweat and had to keep it at 70 or 69 to be comfortable - It was an overnight change. The whole week outside temps were the same (~100) and I was driving same roads around the same time. Tech also kind of indicated what you are saying, but didn't go into details, to say the least. Then with future updates, AC behavior started to change on a seemingly random bases. While I can't confirm it is the same as what's happening with your car, I could see it is most likely.
On a positive side, besides Tesla taking away capacity from my battery, I have had no visible degradation.

Question for everyone that may be related to this topic: In addition to this, I noticed that front vents don't always blow same temp air, including the two around the display. For example, driver will be colder than the passenger or the other way around. Anyone else knows anything about this?

Exact same for me..... Used to be comfortable at 73 consistent. Now there are times where I have to lower it to 64.... It changes at times while I'm driving... However, the app seems to say the car is very close to whatever degree I set the car to. Feel like this is definitely part of the thermal changes...

 

[Droschke]

Some have, and they say:
- your battery checks out ok
- you have too many supercharging sessions
- it's degradation
- it was done for longevity and to protect battery pack
- sorry but nothing we can do about it
- hey but we've improved the efficiency of your car so you should get some of that back
- capacity depends on many factors
- etc etc...
Basically, go away

I'm sure it all makes "perfect sense" to him

 

[gaswalla]

If you switch out ‘dendrites’ and ‘batterygate’ to ‘coronavirus’ and ‘Covid19’ in the above discussion about science and ‘believers’, you literally have a replica about the American discussion about the pandemic

 

[IngTH]

I would advise you guys not to use the word 'dendrites' as cause of the problem. Better to use 'Li-plating'.

In case of a legal action Tesla would claim its relative good propagation protection for non-severe and even severe dendrite formation which happens randomly in only a limited amount of cells.

On the other hand this protection is ineffective against Li-plating which happen in relatively high amount of cells simultaneously.

This is what Tesla had to learn last year. The reduction of the EoCV was the only reasonable way to go as a first response.

 

[Guy V]

I would advise you guys not to use the word 'dendrites' as cause of the problem. Better to use 'Li-plating'.

In case of a legal action Tesla would claim its relative good propagation protection for non-severe and even severe dendrite formation which happens randomly in only a limited amount of cells.

On the other hand this protection is ineffective against Li-plating which happen in relatively high amount of cells simultaneously.

This is what Tesla had to learn last year. The reduction of the EoCV was the only reasonable way to go as a first response.

If they were willing to manufacture with that random risk then they should be willing to rectify the problem when the risk randomly develops in one of their units.

It's not like they disclosed to buyers that they had a 1 in X random chance of abnormal battery failure and it will be your problem not ours.

 

[Chaserr]

If you switch out ‘dendrites’ and ‘batterygate’ to ‘coronavirus’ and ‘Covid19’ in the above discussion about science and ‘believers’, you literally have a replica about the American discussion about the pandemic

Makes sense considering how blase Elon is about the dangers of both.

It's not like they disclosed to buyers that they had a 1 in X random chance of abnormal battery failure and it will be your problem not ours.

They went above and beyond just not mentioning the perils of Tesla ownership, with fraudulent statements like "If something goes wrong, it is therefore our fault, not yours"

 

[mymagiccarpet]

Makes sense considering how blase Elon is about the dangers of both.



They went above and beyond just not mentioning the perils of Tesla ownership, with fraudulent statements like "If something goes wrong, it is therefore our fault, not yours"

The part that really irks me in this page is
"The battery will be replaced at no cost by a factory reconditioned unit with an energy capacity equal to or better than the original pack before the failure occurred."
So they take away 5,10,15% of the battery, and then if the pack dies, what they are obligated to replace it with is post-capped capacity battery. Wonderful...
Another one is, when I log into my account, it used to specifically say that if I sell it, the next owner will get free super charging also - in other words, it stays with the car. Now, that statement is not to be found anywhere in my account. They just seems to be fully content to change features, terms and conditions post sale and on the fly.
I still like the car though.
I looked at MY recently as I thought maybe those batteries won't have the same issue (maybe), but am not giving them any money any more until MS problem is resolved to satisfaction.

 

[JRP3]

Please take @AustinP advice and educate yourself so you won't be a liar when you say things like this. You've done your best to make your opposition to the evidence a personal crusade against me personally, but unfortunately that emotion has the same effect as fear on the scientific method. I've repeatedly asked you to present an alternative hypothesis that isn't dendrites - one that if you take Austin's advice you will be forced to accept - and you've cnstantly refused, choosing interpersonal conflict over science. I'm just one person that happened to deliver the knowledge to you, I didn't create the scientific method and denying me won't change the facts so it doesn't make sense for you to continually avoid suggesting your hypothesis for all of the facts supporting dendrite formation to be anything else. You have a hypothesis right? Something that goes beyond just denial of the scientific method itself?

Choosing to make this personal, your dislike of me as a proxy for your dislike of the facts all pointing at dendrite formation does nothing but create arguments. Is that why you're here, is arguing with specific people you choose to represent data you wish didn't exist your purpose on this website? When you get a Tesla, don't you want it to be reliable and safe? Why try to harm us?

You've created an entire narrative in your own mind. It's not personal, I don't care about you in the least, I'm only looking for the truth. You seem intent on stirring the pot to create some drama that I have no interest in. Maybe it's dendrites, maybe it's something else that neither of us have thought of. I'm willing to admit my own limitations, you want to pretend you're omniscient. I want hard data, not sure why that's so troubling to you. I guess you just want to confirm your own bias and aren't interested in the truth.

 

[JRP3]

So, let me try to understand: You don't own a Tesla and aren't concerned about the problem.

What are you doing here on a thread for those who do and who have the problem? How do you see coming here to disagree with their concerns as helpful and constructive?

Why is it so difficult to understand that I simply want the truth? I was on this forum before anyone owned a Tesla, discussing the technology and the company. I want both to succeed and I want people to be satisfied with their vehicles. Don't buy into the nonsense that some people are trying to promote.

 

[JRP3]

I'm sure it all makes "perfect sense" to him

I've never said that the way Tesla is treating customers on this issue is right. People seem intent on projecting positions on me which I don't have just because I don't agree with the loudest voice in this discussion.

 

[Droschke]

I would advise you guys not to use the word 'dendrites' as cause of the problem. Better to use 'Li-plating'.

In case of a legal action Tesla would claim its relative good propagation protection for non-severe and even severe dendrite formation which happens randomly in only a limited amount of cells.

On the other hand this protection is ineffective against Li-plating which happen in relatively high amount of cells simultaneously.

This is what Tesla had to learn last year. The reduction of the EoCV was the only reasonable way to go as a first response.

Thanks for your continued contribution to this thread. I'm sure the impacted owners always appreciate your factual insights.

 

[JRP3]

And, on you being "quite familiar with dendrite formation", can it cause fire? A yes or no answer would be sufficient.

Sorry I forgot to answer this. Yes of course they can when they grow large enough to pierce the separator layer and short out on the other side.

 

[Guy V]

Why is it so difficult to understand that I simply want the truth? I was on this forum before anyone owned a Tesla, discussing the technology and the company. I want both to succeed and I want people to be satisfied with their vehicles. Don't buy into the nonsense that some people are trying to promote.

Just what audience are you speaking to?

You want us here with the problem to be satisfied? Seriously?

Then why don't you go advocate with Tesla on our behalf to FIX THIS!

If you want the truth why aren't you demanding it from Tesla? They are the ones sitting in it.

It looks rather that you are posting to undermine our situation, casting our concerns as "nonsense" to others who may come across the thread, particularly maybe the press.

 

[IngTH]

Yes of course they can when they grow large enough to pierce the separator layer and short out on the other side.

Sure, but this is not the main reason for the EoCV reduction, charging power reduction and the changes in thermal management.

Simplified you can consider a cell with a li-plated anode as overcharged at 4,2V! This state results in heat production inside the cell and further cathode and electrolyte degradation. The risk for a thermal runaway of a complete block of cells is then much higher than the risk from randomly occuring shorts by dendrites and may not be stopped by the cooling system neither the electrical and thermal propagation protection.

Li-plating results from the fact that Tesla was/is using inappropiate electrical and thermal charging parameters for the given cells.

Or in other words: If they'd applied the parameters they are using now, your batteries would be in better condition now, but on the other hand you'd never have enjoyed the range and/or the charging speed you did more than a year ago and maybe would have complained about high preheating losses.

Imho Tesla in general tends to overstating and designing above safe operation limits.

 

[Droschke]

Li-plating results from the fact that Tesla was/is using inappropiate electrical and thermal charging parameters for the given cells... Imho Tesla in general tends to overstating and designing above safe operation limits.

Thanks for reiterating what has previously been discussed here (including your own previous posts) as to the root cause of the issue. It's an unsafe design for the cars' long term viability. Pushing the technology dangerously to its unsafe long-term limits definitely helps with the sensationalism to generate sales. Create the hype, sell it now and expect/encourage them to upgrade in less than few short years. A disposable cell phone model, except a cell phone won't easily burn your house and costs less than one percent of a Model S.

 

[BigNick]

Thanks for reiterating what has previously been discussed here (including your own previous posts) as to the root cause of the issue. It's an unsafe design for the cars' long term viability. Pushing the technology dangerously to its unsafe long-term limits definitely helps with the sensationalism to generate sales. Create the hype, sell it now and expect/encourage them to upgrade in less than few short years. A disposable cell phone model, except a cell phone won't easily burn your house and costs less than one percent of a Model S.

12000 posts.

Building cars using the despicable tech model is highly irresponsible. Both from an ethical and environmental POV.

Scrapping a billion used-up 5-year-old smartphones is bad. Ten million used-up battery packs is far worse.