Supercharger Event 2012/9/24

[KenEE]

I think it's cool that cars can finally advance like technology...there is a race to get the next car out with the latest digital features or 20 additional miles of range. While this obviously has drawbacks (your car "feels" more outdated more quickly), it also makes the advances forward more visible then, say, an improvement in 2 MPG in fuel economy. At least that's how I see it.

I hope this constant advance will continue and quckly. I haven't read any info on it lately, but I'm planning/hoping to replace my battery as soon as they have a significant improvement. I've read reports a 2X improvement. (unverified) I'd gladly buy a new pack in a few years with enough capacity to drive 75-80 for 300 miles with the A/C and radio blasting.

While appreciative of and supportive of (sending >$100k !) Tesla's efforts, 30 minutes of charging to drive 55 for 2.72 hours is not where we need to be.

Right now I'd be much happier with an adapter so I could use the 24+ DC Fast Chargers we already have in Texas.

 

[Trnsl8r]

Its a pitty they won't include a standard J1772 for other brands of electric vehicles. It isn't like it would have costed a whole lot extra.

...

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this. The Superchargers are (and should be) additional incentive for customers to buy a Tesla. I know that Elon's long term goal is to have all cars be electric, but at some points you have to separate charity goals from business decisions. We can't count on start-up car manufacturer that's in the red to dole out free charging stations for other cars. As a shareholder, I think they did the right thing here. Maybe in the future if they're in the money, the can do some EV philanthropy, but right now they need to keep up demand on their own cars and set the stage for GenIII.

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Might need to suggest to TMC that they add another station in Niagara...for the time being, covering off the Toronto / Ottawa / Montreal corridor and in B.C. will be ok...
...

Maybe that one can use hydro-power?

 

[KenEE]

Wow! I didn't realize the SC Stations cost $250k a piece! I have to say this is suicide. Instead of keeping the cost down so that they can be put many places quickly, they are each one a monument to wastefulness.

I'm sure I'll calm down, but right now I have to say I'm very disappointed and can't imagine Tesla making it once the govt loans and wall street cash runs out. (unless they start running like a real company in the real world that has to make a profit!)

A cheap CHADEMO adapter and I'd have access to at least 24 DC fast chargers in TX right now.

 

[ChadS]

KenEE, you might be partly right. But I don't think it's as bad as it sounds. WA paid about $100k each for a single CHAdeMO station; these have multiple stations, and are twice as fast. And I suspect (although I am 100% guessing) that Solar City is paying part of the total, using the same business model they do when they install solar on residences.

But yeah, I bought a Model S because Tesla advertised Supercharging. It looks like it will be a couple of years (those are Tesla years, so probably 3 years of real time) before a Supercharger is anywhere near me; that is definitely not what I expected--had I known that, I would have kept my current EVs and ordered a Model S in a couple of years. As happy as I am about Tesla's overall strategy and what it means for the market long-term, as a current owner I am not happy about the revealed-too-late rollout plans. A reasonably priced (probably not cheap; it is a lot more complicated than a physical adapter) CHAdeMO adapter would do wonders to change my outlook; WA and OR are crawling with the stations.

 

[smorgasbord]

Based on my conversation with the Tesla engineer on charging standards at the Oct event, I would not expect Chademo support any time soon. Tesla feels that the idea that Chademo has the charger control the car for charging is dead wrong.

Now some speculation:
1) We hear that Tesla Supercharging does not hurt the battery, but we all know that Chademo charging does. This makes me think Tesla doesn't want to go there - ever.

2) The only way Tesla could support Chademo would be for Tesla's adapter to have a car simulator in the adapter to keep Chademo happy, and then have conversion electronics so that the Model S could say what it wants from the adapter. This means a "smart" adapter, which may not be easy nor cheap to build.

While there may be a bunch of Chademo chargers already installed, I'm betting that as of this week plans for more of them are being revisited. It'll be interesting to see if Tesla can do with their plug/port vs J1772/Chademo what Apple tried to do with Firewire versus USB.

 

[vfx]

CHAdeMO adapter would do wonders to change my outlook; WA and OR are crawling with the stations.

And one here in LA.

One Supercharger opened here this week. with six in the state, Tesla wins.

 

[Norbert]

Wow! I didn't realize the SC Stations cost $250k a piece!

Where is the number "250" suddenly coming from? I don't see it mentioned anywhere else in this thread.

 

[vfx]

Where is the number "250" suddenly coming from? I don't see it mentioned anywhere else in this thread.

Yeah, I thought it was $100K...

 

[doug]

Now some speculation:
1) We hear that Tesla Supercharging does not hurt the battery, but we all know that Chademo charging does. This makes me think Tesla doesn't want to go there - ever.

??? Any battery damage is not the fault of CHAdeMO. It has to do with the chemistry and the relatively small capacity of the battery packs in the cars that so far have offered CHAdeMO ports. CHAdeMO charging of a Model S would do no more damage than the Supercharger. Likely less damage since the rate is lower.

2) The only way Tesla could support Chademo would be for Tesla's adapter to have a car simulator in the adapter to keep Chademo happy, and then have conversion electronics so that the Model S could say what it wants from the adapter. This means a "smart" adapter, which may not be easy nor cheap to build.

Yes it would have to be a "smart" adapter, in that it would require some active electronics, but the "car simulator" probably wouldn't have to be much more than a PIC controller.

 

[Todd Burch]

Wow! I didn't realize the SC Stations cost $250k a piece! I have to say this is suicide. Instead of keeping the cost down so that they can be put many places quickly, they are each one a monument to wastefulness.

I'm curious to hear where you heard that, but I wonder (if true) if this is the cost of the more expensive superchargers...several stalls, the "Teslobelisk", solar panels, etc. I suspect many will be the plain box with 1 or 2 stalls, which would be considerably cheaper.

 

[KenEE]

I originally read it on Autoblog - Autoblog - We Obsessively Cover the Auto Industry
But thier source was Bloomberg I believe - Tesla Builds $250,000 Fast Chargers for Model S - Businessweek

(I haven't read the Bloomberg article yet. I wrote my post from the Autoblog article as I find them to be fairly legit for the most part)

We need thousands of these things. The fact that the unknowing or uncaring are willing to spend $100k-$250k for a few thousand dollars worth of parts is, or at least should be, immaterial. Tesla could have desinged and sourced and manufactured (or outsourced) a unit for a fraction of these numbers.

 

[Todd Burch]

I originally read it on Autoblog - Autoblog - We Obsessively Cover the Auto Industry
But thier source was Bloomberg I believe - Tesla Builds $250,000 Fast Chargers for Model S - Businessweek

(I haven't read the Bloomberg article yet. I wrote my post from the Autoblog article as I find them to be fairly legit for the most part)

We need thousands of these things. The fact that the unknowing or uncaring are willing to spend $100k-$250k for a few thousand dollars worth of parts is, or at least should be, immaterial. Tesla could have desinged and sourced and manufactured (or outsourced) a unit for a fraction of these numbers.

But it's way more than a few thousand dollars worth of parts. (I know you're an EE, but do you know everything in a supercharger? There are fluid lines (the charging hardware is liquid cooled), pumps, etc. You've got to pour concrete, pay labor costs, possibly buy the plot of land, tap into the electrical grid, etc. We're not talking a run-of-the-mill charger here.

Edit: Thanks for the links, by the way.

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Regarding the Autoblog article, I can see at least one factual error:

Tesla’s rocket-shaped superchargers are designed to work only with versions of Model S with 85-kilowatt-hour battery packs that allow the cars to go more than 200 miles per charge.

One other thing to note is that, given net positive power production, Tesla might be making a small amount of money through selling the surplus electricity back to the grid.

 

[vfx]

... We're not talking a run-of-the-mill charger here.
....

I going to guess $250K is the sites with all the bells and whistles and land purchase. A box would likely be considerably less.

 

[Eberhard]

Tesla sells a charger for $1.500. The supercharger holds 9 of each = $13.500. Than at pv-module and batterie with at least 100kWh = $40.000. Fair price still less then $100.000.

 

[Todd Burch]

Tesla sells a charger for $1.500. The supercharger holds 9 of each = $13.500. Than at pv-module and batterie with at least 100kWh = $40.000. Fair price still less then $100.000.

Plus install, plus grid tie-in, plus solar panels, plus land purchase/lease, plus liquid cooling equipment, plus....

 

[TEG]

...One Supercharger opened here this week. with six in the state, Tesla wins...

Well we have like 5 CHAdeMO in the greater SF bay area now, with maybe a lot more coming soon:

My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - San Francisco Bay Area Quick Chargers Getting them sooner

During the National Plugin event at Crissy Field on 9/23/2012, a Nissan representative announced while on the podium that Nissan will deploy 100 level 3 chargers in the bay area over the next two years starting in October 2012.
...

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So we have 90kW Superchargers, and maybe even 120kW coming. We had thought maybe battery buffer to avoid demand charges, but no such news (apparently.)

Aren't utility demand charges going to cost someone a lot when these Superchargers get used?
Understanding Demand Charges on Your PGE Bill - Green Wren

 

[dflye]

Aren't utility demand charges going to cost someone a lot when these Superchargers get used?
Understanding Demand Charges on Your PGE Bill - Green Wren

I like how the summer runs for 6 months. So how many months do they allocate for the other 3 seasons (assuming you get a winter season every once in a while? )

summer months, from May 1 to October 31

Although it appears they call the other 6 months winter, and have done away with spring and fall.

 

[vfx]

Well we have like 5 CHAdeMO in the greater SF bay area now, with maybe a lot more coming soon:...

Free?
Solar?
Just outside of LA?
Useful for long trips?

[TEG Mod edit: probably already too much CHAdeMO discussion in this Supercharger thread... The answers to those are in the "it depends" and "I don't know" category anyways...]

 

[Norbert]

But thier source was Bloomberg I believe - Tesla Builds $250,000 Fast Chargers for Model S - Businessweek

Bloomberg isn't always accurate in all details about Tesla. In any case, $250k for 4-6 cars is about $50k per car. I'm assuming this would include the solar panels and their installation with the support structure. So it perhaps isn't much more that Elon's estimate for a single-car charger from a few years ago (which I think was about half that, but don't recall the exact numbers right now).

We need thousands of these things. The fact that the unknowing or uncaring are willing to spend $100k-$250k for a few thousand dollars worth of parts is, or at least should be, immaterial. Tesla could have desinged and sourced and manufactured (or outsourced) a unit for a fraction of these numbers.

Several companies ask more than $50k for a single ~50kW CHAdeMO charger, no solar panels or anything. And I suppose one of the factors here is the current low volume for such devices. Elon usually seems to care a lot about being cost-effective, so I'd guess with more information about the actual cost of everything included, one would see the reason.

 

[Larry Chanin]

We had thought maybe battery buffer to avoid demand charges, but no such news (apparently.)

Aren't utility demand charges going to cost someone a lot when these Superchargers get used?

I suspect the timing of the Supercharger announcement was designed to help offset the less than positive financial news being released at the same time. In other words they couldn't wait to add battery storage. For the general public this feature doesn't provide any additional marketing value.

However, it is something that Tesla can add later to decrease its operating costs. At such time Tesla will be able to advertise how environmentally and financially responsible it is in recycling its batteries, and mitigating demand charges.

Larry