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Supercharging - Elon's statement that Daily Supercharging Users are Receiving Notes

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Supercharging - Elon's statement that Daily Supercharging Users are Receiving...

I'm in a similar opposite situation. I work near a garage that provides free charging. So I top off and move my car when it's done on a daily or every other day basis as needed. If there was a Supercharger very near by, I would consider the same thing, again if I wasn't blocking anyone, it wasn't fully, etc, especially, since it can do it in 30 mins vs 3-8 hours at the public garage. I do have charging at home when I need it too.

For the garage, I'm paying to park at the garage. For the Supercharger, I paid for it with the purchase of my car.

Sounds very reasonable. While you paid for supercharging as did the OP so did the rest of us. Supercharging is a community resource that we all paid into.

Determine what is abuse and what isn't is difficult but most people would know it when they see it.
 
I say Tesla should just make it inconvenient. They could make boths screens red with a big warning saying "CHARGER TAPER DISABLED DUE TO LOCAL CHARGING. STOP CHARGING MANUALLY AT 60% OR YOUR BATTERY WILL SUFFER DEGRADATION." That way they force the person to stay at the car and make it an anxiety thing.

I am kidding of course, but it would be funny to watch expressions of daily local chargers.

It is funny how a few words from Elon and the evil "daily local charger" is a common enemy on TMC.

What a difference a couple of days make. ;)
 
Supercharging - Elon's statement that Daily Supercharging Users are Receiving...

No one here has a problem with daily Supercharging for those that have no good charging opportunities. It those who have a HPWC or 14-50 at home but purposely don't plug in at night to save $5 that I think most have an issue with. It only takes a few greedy people to negatively impact the system. Sure, they are within their rights but that doesn't make it right. Tesla is also perfectly within their rights to offer them unlimited 30kW Supercharging as well.
 
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I was at the Toronto Lawrence SC on Friday reviewing the condition of the CPO S85 we are buying and there was an owner with a laptop in the lounge area waiting for a supercharge.
The Tesla sales rep told us that they hoped to see us around quite a bit, and gestured over to the lounge.
The comment was coached in a way that visiting for casual charging was no issue as far as they were concerned, and it gave them a chance to keep in close contact with owners, which provides opportunity top up-sell newer product.

Personally, I love the convenience of charging my Smart ED at home, and have only done one charge outside of my house, and that was only needed so I could use air conditioning on the way home from a particularly long round trip... 140km ... 17.6 kWh has it's limitations!! ;-)

We will need the superchargers in Ontario for our road trips (of which I hope to start ASAP), but are unlikely to casual charge elsewhere unless strictly required.
 
have run into two people at superchargers that routinely used supercharging instead of home charging. one in new york the other in virginia
i cannot understand why they do this. no matter how close you live to it you are still driving there and waiting. upto an hour if you want a full charge and thirty minutes if your low enough at the start to get 170 miles and drive home. it makes no sense to me is the thrill of free electricity (what 3 dollars worth) enough of an incentive for the inconvenience and time worth it?
 
I find it odd too. Sure if I was down to 40% and driving by a Supercharger on my way home and had 15 min to stop and top up for free I might do that as long as I wasn't blocking anyone but to do this every day or as a routine seems like a waste of time.
 
Sounds very reasonable. While you paid for supercharging as did the OP so did the rest of us. Supercharging is a community resource that we all paid into.

Determine what is abuse and what isn't is difficult but most people would know it when they see it.

The problem is, this abuse that now is being called abuse has been defined after the fact - the daily charger. Nowhere was it said before it isn't OK. Examples like urban Superchargers etc. have portrayed an image that it is OK to use them locally too - as long as you don't park there after you're charged up (which was expressly mentioned).

Tesla sure didn't publicize such limitations prior to now.

As for difficulty in determining abuse, while daily local charging is fairly easy to measure, exceptions to this certainly can be very hard to determine. If it is OK to charge if you can't charge at home, who determines if that is true. What if you need to drive a lot locally and need it for the time saved (the taxi example)? And limiting to customers who can't charge at home, would it even be legal to choose your customers based on type of their housing in many places, I wonder. What if you could install a charger home but just won't? What if it looks to the outside you could install something (a detached house) but then in private there are some rules that actually forbid a charger or running a line outside (landlord, housing co-op, fire regulations, the fact that you like at someone else's house and under their rules, whatnot)?

Hence I hope Tesla will keep this purely on a rhetorical level, or introduce new clear rules for new purchases, because this quagmire of exceptions would make the Supercharger selling point stale fast.

- - - Updated - - -

So you're fine with treating owners differently based on the purchase date, but not on how they are (ab)using a limited, shared resource? /confused

I am fine treating owners different based on the purchase date, as long as the terms are made clear to them prior to the purchase of the vehicle. Why wouldn't I be?

I understand and respect Tesla's right to change their product for future commitments, I am only advocating the need to respect existing commitments - which I believe they will (aside from letters), so this discussion is mostly theoretical.

- - - Updated - - -

No one here has a problem with daily Supercharging for those that have no good charging opportunities. It those who have a HPWC or 14-50 at home but purposely don't plug in at night to save $5 that I think most have an issue with. It only takes a few greedy people to negatively impact he system. Sure, they are within their rights but that doesn't make it right. Tesla is also perfectly within their rights to offer them unlimited 30kW Supercharging as well.

But how do you determine that? How does Tesla determine that? What is the limit?

Are we even sure the people who got these letters, that have now been labeled as "abusers", do have good charging opportunities? It seems plausible to me some of them have none and were daily charging because of that. Or are we just assuming Tesla can target these alleged bad guys without collateral damage?

Is Tesla sending letters to the Schipol taxi's or charging (as in payment) them separately?

Maybe Tesla indeed should write explicit rules for Supercharging and impose them on future buyers, if the system has become a burden for them.
 
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Tesla should have more explicit rules and I imagine people like the OP will force them into that.

These letters if they get sent out are just a first step to remind people what the network is for and hope they are reasonable people. Not everyone is obviously.
 
Tesla should have more explicit rules and I imagine people like the OP will force them into that.

These letters if they get sent out are just a first step to remind people what the network is for and hope they are reasonable people. Not everyone is obviously.

But again you are skirting the issue: How is reasonable use defined? It hadn't been defined when people bought the cars and there are plenty of examples of allowing or even building for local charging as well, but even if we forget that re-defining it after the fact is controversial, it still seems quite difficult to distinguish who can use Superchargers and when.

My opinion is, Tesla is probably doing a balancing act - they want and need to build Superchargers to combat certain issues (definitely not just long-distance but also many local-charging scenarios including road parking and major local driving), but at the same time want people to install home chargers as well to limit their Supercharger commitment... They kind of want and need both and hope the end-results/market works out for them. But for the buying customer, they should make it clearer what the limits are, if there are any.

And with discussion such as this, it may well encourage daily chargers to lessen it if they start feeling the heat at the chargers - even if they might well have what is now, I guess, called a legitimate exception. I would say it would be in Tesla's interest to make it absolutely clear to future buyers what they are buying into with the Supercharger - and for that they need to solve the issue of metropolitan chargers, they can't just say "long-distance only" because of that.
 
I wouldn't force them into anything. I was just very confused by the statement, but I guess by asking the question..and then this very long thread will.

but my nature always asks questions when things aren't clear....

And it's a good question.

Sorry, I meant No2DinosaurFuel who states he can easily charge at home but refuses to to teach Tesla a lesson for being imprecise in their wording.
 
But again you are skirting the issue: How is reasonable use defined? It hadn't been defined when people bought the cars and there are plenty of examples of allowing or even building for local charging as well, but even if we forget that re-defining it after the fact is controversial, it still seems quite difficult to distinguish who can use Superchargers and when.

My opinion is, Tesla is probably doing a balancing act - they want and need to build Superchargers to combat certain issues (definitely not just long-distance but also many local-charging scenarios including road parking and major local driving), but at the same time want people to install home chargers as well to limit their Supercharger commitment... They kind of want and need both and hope the end-results/market works out for them. But for the buying customer, they should make it clearer what the limits are, if there are any.

And with discussion such as this, it may well encourage daily chargers to lessen it if they start feeling the heat at the chargers - even if they might well have what is now, I guess, called a legitimate exception. I would say it would be in Tesla's interest to make it absolutely clear to future buyers what they are buying into with the Supercharger - and for that they need to solve the issue of metropolitan chargers, they can't just say "long-distance only" because of that.

I'm not skirting the issue. It's been discussed multiple times unthread. Can you charge at home? If that is a yes but you come home at night and don't plug in on purpose then I would consider that unreasonable. Tesla will likely have to create rules for new sales and grandfather everyone in. It's like most things. The small percentage of people who abuse be system whatever your definition is will force rules only everyone.
 
Your two stances are conflicting with each other. I'm going with your approval on the earlier post though. :) On one hand you say it sounds reasonable on the other hand you're saying it's sort of abuse.

Maybe it's more of an etiquette education issue.

I know in the garage I park at during the day, I have seen all types of mfg's electric cars and I do find that in general people are inconsiderate/don't know better (or not as considerate as I would want or how I feel I am.) There are a number of i3 and eGulf now that park, but because their cars lock in the charger to the car, no one can use the charger when they are done, so they needed 3 hours but parked for over 8 hours. Most people do not move their cars when they are done. Many park even if they aren't charging. We've had a number of people park for days. When I'm there and I'm done, I also plug it in for someone else because it's "free", but I've never had anyone plug in my car, when I was parked there waiting with my adapter in the car.

And it's only going to get worse....

Sounds very reasonable. While you paid for supercharging as did the OP so did the rest of us. Supercharging is a community resource that we all paid into.

Determine what is abuse and what isn't is difficult but most people would know it when they see it.

No one here has a problem with daily Supercharging for those that have no good charging opportunities. It those who have a HPWC or 14-50 at home but purposely don't plug in at night to save $5 that I think most have an issue with. It only takes a few greedy people to negatively impact the system. Sure, they are within their rights but that doesn't make it right. Tesla is also perfectly within their rights to offer them unlimited 30kW Supercharging as well.
 
No one here has a problem with daily Supercharging for those that have no good charging opportunities. It those who have a HPWC or 14-50 at home but purposely don't plug in at night to save $5 that I think most have an issue with. It only takes a few greedy people to negatively impact the system. Sure, they are within their rights but that doesn't make it right. Tesla is also perfectly within their rights to offer them unlimited 30kW Supercharging as well.

Agreed... although I'd suggest that the issue is actually "could reasonably provide their own charging" at home.

Just because somebody simply wants to avoid paying for the installation of a 14-50 when they could... or for whom a 5-20 is sufficient but they would rather not pay for their own electricity, I take issue with that.
 
I'm not skirting the issue. It's been discussed multiple times unthread. Can you charge at home? If that is a yes but you come home at night and don't plug in on purpose then I would consider that unreasonable. Tesla will likely have to create rules for new sales and grandfather everyone in. It's like most things. The small percentage of people who abuse be system whatever your definition is will force rules only everyone.

Thank you for taking the time to answer that question. I guess we have to agree to disagree on the abuser part, since I don't see daily use of Superchargers abusive under what previously was sold to us. All I would call as abuse under the previous would be parking at Superchargers. I understand you disagree.

That said, even if we look at the proposed new policy, it still puzzles me how that would work in reality. Long-distance supercharging would be fairly easy to understand, but allowing local charging for those who "need it" seems iffy. Is it legal to offer different service depending on what the housing situation of the customer is or their daily driving needs? I guess that depends on the market, but I see discriminatory and privacy issues. Is it abusive if someone could install a home charger, but won't (or their spouse won't let them because it looks ugly or whatever)? Would this discourage people from installing home charging? But most importantly, how would Tesla - or other people be it at the Supercharger or online at TMC commenting about some guy - know who is the excepted one and who is an "abuser"?

I liked the old story of free for life of the car, end of story, better.

As for local charging, Tesla isn't stupid. They knew people would charge locally - they even catered for some of that use. Until now, I expected them to factor that part of the system into their overall business model, because it is obvious any fixed-price system will have low as well as high users.
 
I'm sure the number of people affected are going to be miniscule, but that's not the point. The original statement was "free supercharging for life". This is "free supercharging for life, assuming you have a moral compass, otherwise I'll send you a letter asking you to cut it out".
 
Your two stances are conflicting with each other. I'm going with your approval on the earlier post though. :) On one hand you say it sounds reasonable on the other hand you're saying it's sort of abuse.

Maybe it's more of an etiquette education issue.

I know in the garage I park at during the day, I have seen all types of mfg's electric cars and I do find that in general people are inconsiderate/don't know better (or not as considerate as I would want or how I feel I am.) There are a number of i3 and eGulf now that park, but because their cars lock in the charger to the car, no one can use the charger when they are done, so they needed 3 hours but parked for over 8 hours. Most people do not move their cars when they are done. Many park even if they aren't charging. We've had a number of people park for days. When I'm there and I'm done, I also plug it in for someone else because it's "free", but I've never had anyone plug in my car, when I was parked there waiting with my adapter in the car.

And it's only going to get worse....

I don't think what you are doing is abuse. You have charging at home you use and charging at work you make every effort to use then free up when done while others are not so considerate. If work charging doesn't seem to fly for some reason you use the Supercharger to supplement.

If you wanted to could you use home charging and get to work and back and all of your daily driving without work or Supercharging?